LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

Disturbing and unsubstantiated claims, but enduring in them on whimsy…Pelagianism.

We need to continue our prayers for the Mormon people to come out of Egypt and into the true faith of Christ…The Church is the new Israel without boundaries, distinction on race or being approved for advancement so one can go to the celestial kingdom.

The Kingdom of Christ is here now.

 

[twopekinguys]

Bat,

You are correct…look here…Fatboy started this thread with this…

That means that the gospel was so good, the LDS gospel, that Fatboy believes he now has and that gospel is bringing people together and changing lives.

When Fatboy is asked for references…here…

Fatboy responds with this…

Then note this…

Post 29 Janderich enters with, continues Post 38

Fatboy comes back at post 44 with no references…

Janderich then goes on to defend the Apostasy in post 78 with nonsense

We then see tandem post 87/88 Fatboy/Janderich….

Fatboy seems to be the instigator by experience… and Janderich the Apologist…

There was no Apostasy. LDS is a cult. Fatboy and Janderich are deluded and their proof is lacking of anything but delusion.

Fat has been allowed to go on longer than any poster not providing references.

 

[KathleenGee]

And this idea about Constantine starting the Roman Catholic Church is a new spin created by the non denominational Evangelicals.

I came across it being promoted on World Net Daily, and since then have seldom gone back to the website. I cannot trust their perspective.

Ven. Catherine Emmerich in the early 1800’s, same time as Joseph Smith and other founders of Restorationist religion here in America, envisioned a coming Evangelical church which she perceived as being a strange church.

I was reading the life of the wife of the composer Mendelsohn, – also living in the same time period in Europe, and they were deciding on which Protestant church in which one to be married, as there were many strange and questionable going ons in the various protestant divisions. They noted that all of them wanted to be defined under the umbrella of the ‘Evangelical’ Church vs the Catholic Church. They finally got married in a French reformed church.

 

[Arandur]

How do you know that it is correct? Are you saying that history is what makes a belief true?

How did Peter know it was true?

This goes back to what I’ve said several times about Catholics recognizing many objective sources outside ourselves, against which to check our own subjective thoughts and feelings. If you cannot appeal to an exterior measure, you are left to your own devices, making yourself your own god by worshipping whatever you think or feel–even if you think or feel that you are worshipping the true God correctly, it is ultimately your own mental and emotional construct that you are worshipping unless you have some external verification, some measuring stick.

That’s idolatry. And a great many people, I daresay most, practice it.

We Catholics look to many objective sources and disciplines to verify truth, as I’ve said before:
History–including contemporary records, archaeology, and critical analysis
Natural law and science
Sacred Scripture–and its record of Salvation History
Sacred Tradition
Apostolic authority
Theology, philosophy
Miracles and living witness of others, particularly the Saints

And ultimately Logic and God’s gift of human reason to compare and contrast, and insodoing verify.

Most non-Catholics isolate only one or two of these, cherry-pick the content of others, and often ignore whole disciplines to favor one interpretation. Catholics have long found the evidence of God’s Revelation in them all, recognizing that Truth cannot contradict Truth, and thus by finding the correlation of all sources and disciplines, we come to understand that Truth (Jesus) better and know it more certainly.

Since personal experiences from one person can easily conflict with those of another, the whole “burning in the bosom” idea is useless. Worse, it’s dangerous, for Scripture points out that the heart can deceive, and that we can easily be manipulated by the Adversary appearing as an “angel of light…”

Thus, rather than be lead about by our easily-manipulated and misleading feelings, we must compare them against objective sources of truth and be prepared to discard or re-interpret our prior understandings of our own personal feelings.

So when talking with others, please set aside any ideas of “burning in the bosom,” as it is no indicator of truth. Let us instead focus on the Revelation God has given us through the many sources of truth (and more!) that I have mentioned above.

And since Truth is a Person (Jesus), we must be prepared to enter into relationship and cast aside any baggage we have that is holding us back from it (Him).

 

[Janderich]

I thought that priesthood was for Jesus Christ only, and only Him. That He never passed that on to anyone. Anyone know anything about this?

There are two priesthoods namely the Aaronic and Melchizedek. Through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood leaders guide and direct the church. The Melchizedek priesthood is after the Order of the Son of God and holds the keys of the knowledge of God and the right of presidency. This priesthood is without beginning of days or end of years.

The Aaronic priesthood is a subset of the Melchizedek priesthood. Within the Aaronic priesthood is contained the offices of Bishop, Priest, Teacher, Deacon. The higher priesthood (Melchizedek) holds the offices of Prophet, Apostle, Seventy, Patriarch, High Priest, and Elder.

Melchizedek, as mentioned in the Bible, was King of Salem and was an exemplary High Priest. To him Abraham gave tithes. The priesthood he held was not reserved for Jesus only but for all worthy men as the Bible testifies, “Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God…” (Heb 5:1 NIV). However, it is necessary that one be ordained by another holding the priesthood for, “No man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb 5:4).

During the apostasy the Melchizedek priesthood was lost. However, in 1829 the apostles Peter, James, and John, who held this priesthood, visited Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and restored the Melchizedek priesthood to men on the earth. Through the ordinances of this priesthood all may be saved and enter into the rest of the Lord which is the fullness of his glory.

 

[Cat_Herder]

During the apostasy

What apostasy?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[SteveVH]

During the apostasy the Melchizedek priesthood was lost.

And this is really what it all comes down to. Do you realize what a huge statement this is considering the complete lack of evidence for the position and the mountains of evidence against it? You are basing everything on the claims of a man and placing reason on the shelf.

God himself promised that the priesthood would never be lossed:

“For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.” (Jer 33:17-22)

 

[PaulDupre]

Then why were so many factions of Christianity that existed during the third century?

Why are there so many factions of Mormonism that existed in the 19th century (not to mention currently)?

 

[kimg901]

So every single christian after our Lords time on earth would have to had given up on God for an apostacy to have occured, correct? If there was still christians preaching what Jesus taught how could an apostacy have happened? So wouldnt it make sense that after Joseph Smith died and alot of people left his church that an apostacy also took place and is still occuring now?

 

[CopticChristian]

There are two priesthoods namely the Aaronic and Melchizedek. Through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood leaders guide and direct the church. The Melchizedek priesthood is after the Order of the Son of God and holds the keys of the knowledge of God and the right of presidency. This priesthood is without beginning of days or end of years.

The Aaronic priesthood is a subset of the Melchizedek priesthood. Within the Aaronic priesthood is contained the offices of Bishop, Priest, Teacher, Deacon. The higher priesthood (Melchizedek) holds the offices of Prophet, Apostle, Seventy, Patriarch, High Priest, and Elder.

Melchizedek, as mentioned in the Bible, was King of Salem and was an exemplary High Priest. To him Abraham gave tithes. The priesthood he held was not reserved for Jesus only but for all worthy men as the Bible testifies, “Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God…” (Heb 5:1 NIV). However, it is necessary that one be ordained by another holding the priesthood for, “No man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb 5:4).

During the apostasy the Melchizedek priesthood was lost. However, in 1829 the apostles Peter, James, and John, who held this priesthood, visited Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and restored the Melchizedek priesthood to men on the earth. Through the ordinances of this priesthood all may be saved and enter into the rest of the Lord which is the fullness of his glory.

Jan,

Begging the question is what this is called…“during the Apostasy”…implies that this fantasy is reality…and since it never occured all that follows is also fantasy.

Next did The Apostles Peter, James and John have their own planet and a harem?

 

[Janderich]

And this is really what it all comes down to. Do you realize what a huge statement this is considering the complete lack of evidence for the position and the mountains of evidence against it? You are basing everything on the claims of a man and placing reason on the shelf.

God himself promised that the priesthood would never be lossed:

“For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.” (Jer 33:17-22)

You of course are free to say there was no apostasy, but it is quite a stretch to say there is no evidence for such. At best you must reject the evidence. I invite you to read through my previous posts on this very thread to see just a few examples of this evidence. Also, I have not placed reason on the shelf at all. Instead I have investigated, read a 500+ page book of scripture - validated by more than 11 witnesses - and tested my belief as directed by James in the Bible.

 

[truthseeker32]

So every single christian after our Lords time on earth would have to had given up on God for an apostacy to have occured, correct? If there was still christians preaching what Jesus taught how could an apostacy have happened? So wouldnt it make sense that after Joseph Smith died and alot of people left his church that an apostacy also took place and is still occuring now?

To be fair to our LDS friends, they do not believe the apostasy was a complete removal of truth from the earth. Most Mormons I know believe there were still good believers, and have been at all points in time, but they lacked the fulness of truth that was supposedly restored by Joseph Smith.

You do raise an interesting question, though. If there was an apostasy once, why couldn’t there be another? The LDS faith claims that the last apostasy occurred as people rebelled and corrupted the teachings of the Church. Well I can tell you that during my time as a Mormon I met many people who rebelled against the teachings of the church and sought to alter its doctrines.

 

[Janderich]

So every single christian after our Lords time on earth would have to had given up on God for an apostacy to have occured, correct? If there was still christians preaching what Jesus taught how could an apostacy have happened? So wouldnt it make sense that after Joseph Smith died and alot of people left his church that an apostacy also took place and is still occuring now?

I’m not quite sure why I keep hearing this strange reasoning. An apostasy does not require that every christian on earth need give up on God. As I have posted earlier:

By fencing the word “apostasy” into such a strict definition no doubt there has never been an apostasy since Adam first spoke to God. However, such is not the case.

…Clearly, in order for there to be an apostasy not every person needs to become an unbeliever. Indeed truth has always, and will always, exist in the minds of men. When Joseph Smith asked which church to join, the Lord told him he should join none of them for they were all wrong. But the Lord further says that the churches have “a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith History 1:19). Thus the Lord acknowledges there is a form of godliness in the churches, but he still points out that the power of God is no longer with them. To have the form is not to have the power. The loss of God’s power could be summed up in three ways:

1. The loss of clear-cut priesthood authority
2. The corruption of ordinances
3. The loss of continuing revelation to guide the church from its head

When God ceases to pass his authority to man how then can they enter the kingdom of heaven? For although the forms may be correct man cannot receive the power necessary to enter therein. Further, once the power is lost, revelation is the only way to obtain it again from God. Without revelation apostasy remains. This then is all that is needed for an apostasy to occur. God, not man, decides when he will withdraw his power. Post#78

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

Begging the question is what this is called…“during the Apostasy”…implies that this fantasy is reality…and since it never occured all that follows is also fantasy.

Next did The Apostles Peter, James and John have their own planet and a harem?

Coptic, Why do you twist our beliefs and treat them with such mockery? I have not sought to do the same with yours.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, Why do you twist our beliefs and treat them with such mockery? I have not sought to do the same with yours.

Jan,

I have your attention.

The notion of a great Apostasy if fiction.

Do you believe that Peter, Paul, and the Apostles that appeared passed into a life where they now have a planet of their own and are gods.

Are you aware that I believe truly through history, by outside sources that God created a means by which you, I and others can enter the kingdom of heaven and that is the Sacrament of the Church with Apostolic Succession and Peter as the head.

Your posting suggesting that there was an Apostasy, making wild claims without support to the contrary of what I believe on a CAF is a mockery to me.

Do you like being mocked?

 

[zaffiroborant]

1. The loss of continuing revelation to guide the church from its head

.

Catholics see no loss in the guidance of The Church, The Holy Spirit continues to guide us in all things just as promised.

 

[batman1973]

To be fair to our LDS friends, they do not believe the apostasy was a complete removal of truth from the earth. Most Mormons I know believe there were still good believers, and have been at all points in time, but they lacked the fulness of truth that was supposedly restored by Joseph Smith.

You do raise an interesting question, though. If there was an apostasy once, why couldn’t there be another? The LDS faith claims that the last apostasy occurred as people rebelled and corrupted the teachings of the Church. Well I can tell you that during my time as a Mormon I met many people who rebelled against the teachings of the church and sought to alter its doctrines.

The other thing to consider, is there are many splits in Mormonism, each claiming to be the one true “church”, and that the other branches of Mormonism to be apostate.

 

[Porknpie]

You of course are free to say there was no apostasy, but it is quite a stretch to say there is no evidence for such. At best you must reject the evidence. I invite you to read through my previous posts on this very thread to see just a few examples of this evidence. Also, I have not placed reason on the shelf at all. Instead I have investigated, read a 500+ page book of scripture - validated by more than 11 witnesses - and tested my belief as directed by James in the Bible.

Jan-

Scripture and documented church history are clear that the Church grew great in numbers, guided by our Lord and the Holy Spirit. Our Lord would not set up his Church, guide it, have the numbers converting to it grow greatly, then let it go into a great apostasy. This makes no sense. Perhaps…JS listened to an angel. If so, your KJV bible says not to do so. It was not an angel of light…he was deceived. I personally believe he made it all up for power, money and sex.

Notice it was The Lord adding to the numbers. No apostasy.

Acts 2:47. praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Great growth including Jewish priests. No apostasy.

Acts 6:7. The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.

The Holy Spirit guided the church…growing in numbers. No apostasy.

Acts 9:31 The church throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

Strengthened in faith…increasing daily…no apostasy.

Acts 16:5. So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

This is also recorded by the early church fathers …many more quotes from them are available. See “multitude”. No apostasy.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

There is clarity here for all of Christianity…no apostasy ever occurred, let alone a great one.

 

[kimg901]

Jan or Fat,

If the bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted unless “translated correctly”, why did mormons use the KJV of the bible only then to change to the KJB “LDS Version”?
I pray that you guys start seeing the errors of your “prophets” ways. It seems to me like
every ward teaches something different and all lds folks are confused about church teachings. I ask you, as a christian, to open up your hearts and listen to Gods voice.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

I have your attention.

Coptic, You may disagree with me all you like. Doing so is not mockery, ridiculing someone is. If you want my attention simply ask me a question.

CopticChristian:

Do you believe that Peter, Paul, and the Apostles that appeared passed into a life where they now have a planet of their own and are gods.

It seems you have misunderstood the doctrine on eternal progression. For perfection it is not to be obtained immediately after death, nor even directly after the resurrection. Joseph Smith said:

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348)

One must progress step by step through perhaps eons of time, learning and growing. We are as nothing here. We are less then the dust of the earth. But we are children of our Father in Heaven and we have the potential.

CopticChristian:

Your posting suggesting that there was an Apostasy, making wild claims without support to the contrary of what I believe on a CAF is a mockery to me.

Do you like being mocked?

I have made no unsupported claims. I have been involved the last 50+ pages in supporting what I have said, especially regarding the apostasy. You can review my posts and you will see scripture, quotes, and references in almost all cases.

What I find interesting is that everyone latches on to the word “apostasy” when I claim that Peter, James, and John visited the earth to restore the priesthood. Either I am severely deluded or what I say is true. In either case, it is an incredible claim. Do I seem so easily swayed that I would believe anything? I can tell you I am not.