LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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SteveVH said:
One big difference, however. When we read the Gospels we consider the character and the number of witnesses to Christ’s life, death and resurrection. We find them to be credible. When we consider the character of Joseph Smith, based upon his occupation as a “treasure hunter” in which he scammed the trusting people of his day, we draw a different conclusion. Joseph Smith would be among the last people in which I would exercise faith.
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I of course completely disagree about the character of Joseph Smith. Don’t you find it strange that Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger and reverence at the same time? When Moroni first visited Joseph he promised that, “[His] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS–H 1:33). Few prophesies have ever been so clearly fulfilled.
 
Cat_Herder said:
Then what was there to restore?
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While there are others, I believe there were three items of primary importance.
  1. Priesthood authority
  2. Ordinances
  3. Continuing revelation to guide the church from its head
You can see my previous post here.
 
Janderich said:
I of course completely disagree about the character of Joseph Smith. Don’t you find it strange that Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger and reverence at the same time? When Moroni first visited Joseph he promised that, “[His] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS–H 1:33). Few prophesies have ever been so clearly fulfilled.
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Jan- I find it strange that Mormons ignore St. Paul’s warning in Galatians saying not to believe even an angel who brings another gospel than what has been taught.
 
Porknpie said:
Jan- I find it strange that Mormons ignore St. Paul’s warning in Galatians saying not to believe even an angel who brings another gospel than what has been taught.
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Mormons would reply that it is not another gospel, just a restoring. They can justify any objection y
ou have. That’s how a cult works.
 
Porknpie said:
Stephen -

Reason shows he made it all up for sex, money and power. The seer stone was previously used to find buried treasure, 30+ wives, adulterer many times over … American Indians descending from Asian not the Middle East, Egyptian funeral text translated into another Gospel, no archeological remains ever found of a great civilization, translation of the BoM with his head in a bag…and on and on. 🤷

TO SCRIPTURE: His own story should raise RED flags as he “listened” to the Angel Moroni with a different Gospel than what was given to the apostles. Scripture is clear on this…St. Paul appears to be speaking directly to Mormons.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel (Moroni) from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!

No great apostasy either. The bible & church history are clear on this. No apostasy, no reason to restore the church. The Jesus has kept his promise to be with his Church until the end of time, protecting it on faith & morals…changing doctrine not allowed.
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Yes, sex, power and money seems to be the result of Joseph Smith’s stories. I find it most interesting that Mormons point to a Melchizedek priesthood, but not one ever has even tried to support its historical insistence. It is a fabrication of Joseph Smith and even Mormons can’t support it. When challenged that skip right past it just as we’ve seem them do here.
 
Janderich said:
While there are others, I believe there were three items of primary importance.
  1. Priesthood authority
  2. Ordinances
  3. Continuing revelation to guide the church from its head
You can see my previous post here.
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Stephen168 said:
There is no such thing as the Melchizedek priesthood. It is a fabrication of Joseph Smith.

Melchizedek priesthood never was, so it could not be lost. It was in 1829 that Joseph Smith invented it along with his fantasy of how it started.
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Apostolic Succession is in the Catholic Church. The Mormon Church doesn’t have a continuing anything from Christ. And we have shown how irrational Mormon teaching on baptism is that we know it did not come from Christ.

Joseph Smith made it all up
 
Janderich said:
I of course completely disagree about the character of Joseph Smith. Don’t you find it strange that Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger and reverence at the same time? When Moroni first visited Joseph he promised that, “[His] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS–H 1:33). Few prophesies have ever been so clearly fulfilled.
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Can something be considered prophesy if it is written after the fact?
 
Porknpie said:
Jan- I find it strange that Mormons ignore St. Paul’s warning in Galatians saying not to believe even an angel who brings another gospel than what has been taught.
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Paul’s warning is to not believe another gospel. The truth we have is not another gospel but the same which was from the beginning. Note also that he does not limit it to an angel but anyone, including himself, who preaches any other gospel. This is yet another scripture indicating the falsehood that was creeping into the church even while Paul was preaching.
 
Cat_Herder said:
But isn’t that directly addressed by 1 Tim 2:3-4?
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I’m not quite seeing the justification here. Of course Jesus would have all men be saved. But of course they have free will to choose. Only, in the LDS church do we offer the saving ordinances of the gospel to all people. Through baptisms for the dead all people will hear, and be allowed to accept the message. For how many have died without a knowledge of the truth. Shouldn’t all be allowed to accept or reject the gospel message?
 
Janderich said:
I’m not quite seeing the justification here. Of course Jesus would have all men be saved. But of course they have free will to choose. Only, in the LDS church do we offer the saving ordinances of the gospel to all people. Through baptisms for the dead all people will hear, and be allowed to accept the message. For how many have died without a knowledge of the truth. Shouldn’t all be allowed to accept or reject the gospel message?
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All people *will *hear the gospel, Jan. 'Tis true, this. But it will not be through baptism of the dead, which is an un-Biblical tradition.
 
Janderich said:
While there are others, I believe there were three items of primary importance.
  1. Priesthood authority
  2. Ordinances
  3. Continuing revelation to guide the church from its head
You can see my previous post here.
Click to expand...
Jan,

This is a literal understanding of fantasy. What is the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood? Why was it established?
 
Janderich said:
I of course completely disagree about the character of Joseph Smith. Don’t you find it strange that Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger and reverence at the same time? When Moroni first visited Joseph he promised that, “[His] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS–H 1:33). Few prophesies have ever been so clearly fulfilled.
Click to expand...
Jan,

I have no anger for Jo…a prophesy is only a prophesy if you believe it is a prophesy. I don’t see a prophesy.
 
Stephen168 said:
I find it most interesting that Mormons point to a Melchizedek priesthood, but not one ever has even tried to support its historical insistence. It is a fabrication of Joseph Smith and even Mormons can’t support it. When challenged that skip right past it just as we’ve seem them do here.
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Stephen, I guess I didn’t think I needed to. First it is supported in the Bible. Second it is acknowledged in the CCC here, and third it appears Catholic priests are ordained to this order. Am I incorrect? I’m not sure why you think it is a fabrication of Joseph Smith.
 
Janderich said:
Paul’s warning is to not believe another gospel. The truth we have is not another gospel but the same which was from the beginning. Note also that he does not limit it to an angel but anyone, including himself, who preaches any other gospel. This is yet another scripture indicating the falsehood that was creeping into the church even while Paul was preaching.
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Jan,

Paul delinieates quite clearly that the problems at large were the Jews trying to impose the Old Covenant on Christians. This is seen in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians. It is no mystery that this was a major problem. You labor on falsehoods and yet it is clear that the issues were not falsehoods but misunderstandings. You misunderstand as well.
 
Janderich said:
I’m not quite seeing the justification here. Of course Jesus would have all men be saved. But of course they have free will to choose. Only, in the LDS church do we offer the saving ordinances of the gospel to all people. Through baptisms for the dead all people will hear, and be allowed to accept the message. For how many have died without a knowledge of the truth. Shouldn’t all be allowed to accept or reject the gospel message?
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Jan,

You presuppose on God. You do the work of God believing that you do this and God requires it. What is it God wants for those that have not, cannot or will not hear the gospel of the Catholic Church?..it is up to God…not to me to decide.
 
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