LDS: What do you know about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?

[lax16]

Your speaking Zeitoun Egypt? Facinating to say the least. There and Fatima are two that I whole heartedly believe. Matter of Fact I don’t how someone cannot. The magnitude of evidence in those two Miracles is great.

Yes!!!

I am completely overwhelmed by the amount of persecution our fellow Christians, the Coptics, have endured from the very early days of Christianity and how they have maintained their extreme devotion.

The fact that the Blessed Mother intervened in 1968 for almost two years to stop the Muslims from slaughtering them is amazing, to say the least.

The apparitions are approved by the Catholic Church.

I would think the Mormons would have a hard time accusing the Coptics of apostasy, so maybe they would like to hear what they have to say about Mary and what they have been saying since the beginning of Christianity, starting with the Apostles?

 

[lax16]

What a coincidence. I just stumbled upon a Web site dedicated Our lady Zeitoun – it was very interesting and has some great resources.

zeitun-eg.org/

Yes, the Coptics have a great history beginning with the Apostle Mark.

Aren’t the pictures of Mary beautiful? I can’t get enough!

Even my children are reading the book with me “A Lady of Light Appears in Egypt.”

I would love to share the Coptic belief in the death and ascension of the Virgin Mary! It is very similar to the story by Venerable Mary of Agreda in The Mystical City of God.

I have told anyone and everyone who will stand still long enough to listen!

And to think, Protestants and Mormons wonder where we get our teachings on Mary…???

 

[Peter_John]

I believe you and Steve are talking about different things here. It seems to me that Steve is referring to multiple Heavenly Mothers with regards to the infinite regress of multiple Heavenly Fathers given the LDS concept of deification by exaltation, while you seem to be referring to the possibility of multiple Heavenly Mothers all married to the same Heavenly Father by plural celestial marriage. Concerning the latter, the only Mormons I’ve ever known to think God is a polygamist have been my great grandfather who grew up in a polygamist family, and the three Fundamentalist (non-LDS) Mormons I met in Arizona. It’s not that common of a belief in contemporary LDS circles.

Either one is an equally invalid interpretation of Christianity. The point is to introduce Mormons to their real heavenly Mother, and the real nature of our relationship with Her.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, the Coptics have a great history beginning with the Apostle Mark.

Aren’t the pictures of Mary beautiful? I can’t get enough!

Even my children are reading the book with me “A Lady of Light Appears in Egypt.”

I would love to share the Coptic belief in the death and ascension of the Virgin Mary! It is very similar to the story by Venerable Mary of Agreda in The Mystical City of God.

I have told anyone and everyone who will stand still long enough to listen!

And to think, Protestants and Mormons wonder where we get our teachings on Mary…???

Coptic Monks:

youtube.com/watch?v=rRFM1n6sI6Q

 

[Peter_John]

As I said in my post to BYU, it seems that there are few, if any, questions asked by Mormons concerning the Catholic faith. It is evident that they are on this forum for the single purpose of defending Mormonism, not to learn about Catholicism. Is there some prohibition against them inquiring about aspects of our faith?.

Mormons believe that their Church is the only true and living Church on the face of the Earth. Period. Most Mormons learn little more about what toher churches teach than what their leaders teach them. They think that many of use do really understand what our Church teaches. That does not mean that we do not understand the teaching of the Church. That means we do not understand the true eternal implications of the teachings.

I do not expect to persuade any Mormons with anything I write in here. Faithful Mormons would only have three reasons for coming into this Website: One would be to look for false teachings about their Church and to defend them. Another would be to pick a fight. Another would be to seek converts, even if not through outright proselytization.

Otherwise they think they already know what we teach, and if they don’t it doesn’t matter, because whatever we teach is a result of the Apostasy anyway. They will not accept that their leaders may have misrepresented things to us.

Like I said, when I converted to Catholicism I completley nelieved in Mormonism even though I could not be accepted in it. I was not looking to believe in anything else, but trying to apply the plain and precious truths I had gleaned from dedicating myself to the Book of Mormon. Nothing surprised me more than finding them in catholicism, and only then did I recognize particle of poison uner the sugar coating in it. I spent quite some time being angry about how much the Church had lied to me less about what cathoilicism teaches then about why and what it measn.

I got over it when I remembered that Joseph Smith never gave Catholicism a serious consideration before his first vision. In a nutshell he said that he gave it a cursory look and decided it was silly – see, he didn’t know Latin. He couldn’t have fully examined it then.

But that is getting off topic a little. the tie in would be that he did not give his real Heaveny Mother a chance, and created one of his own.

What I realized was that he claimed an extreme divine intervention to resolve a personal question (which is all it was at the time of the first vision) when he had not fully examined all alternatives yet.

 

[Peter_John]

Coptic Monks:

youtube.com/watch?v=rRFM1n6sI6Q

Awesome music.

 

[SteveVH]

Mormons believe that their Church is the only true and living Church on the face of the Earth. Period. Most Mormons learn little more about what toher churches teach than what their leaders teach them. They think that many of use do really understand what our Church teaches. That does not mean that we do not understand the teaching of the Church. That means we do not understand the true eternal implications of the teachings.

I do not expect to persuade any Mormons with anything I write in here. Faithful Mormons would only have three reasons for coming into this Website: One would be to look for false teachings about their Church and to defend them. Another would be to pick a fight. Another would be to seek converts, even if not through outright proselytization.

Otherwise they think they already know what we teach, and if they don’t it doesn’t matter, because whatever we teach is a result of the Apostasy anyway. They will not accept that their leaders may have misrepresented things to us.

Like I said, when I converted to Catholicism I completley nelieved in Mormonism even though I could not be accepted in it. I was not looking to believe in anything else, but trying to apply the plain and precious truths I had gleaned from dedicating myself to the Book of Mormon. Nothing surprised me more than finding them in catholicism, and only then did I recognize particle of poison uner the sugar coating in it. I spent quite some time being angry about how much the Church had lied to me less about what cathoilicism teaches then about why and what it measn.

I got over it when I remembered that Joseph Smith never gave Catholicism a serious consideration before his first vision. In a nutshell he said that he gave it a cursory look and decided it was silly – see, he didn’t know Latin. He couldn’t have fully examined it then.

But that is getting off topic a little. the tie in would be that he did not give his real Heaveny Mother a chance, and created one of his own.

What I realized was that he claimed an extreme divine intervention to resolve a personal question (which is all it was at the time of the first vision) when he had not fully examined all alternatives yet.

Well, I also believe that my Church, the Catholic Church, is the one, true Church. Yet I am very interested in what Mormons believe, as I am interested in many religions. Mormonism is fascinating because it is truly another religion entirely. Its certainly not like discussing theology with a Presbyterian. I would consider it extremely presumptuous to believe I understood them before I had made many inquiries. I am far from understanding them after nearly two years of speaking with them and asking questions. In many ways it has been an extremely frustrating experience.

 

[RebeccaJ]

As for our heavenly mother, I can believe that Mary is our spiritual mother, but where did the title Queen of Heaven come from? I’ve only seen it in the bible once, and God is condeming people that serve her.

Hello Jesness,

I recommend reading the encyclical from Pope Pius XII, “Ad Caeli Reginum”.

But in short, Christ is King and the Mother of a King is always a Queen. So Mary has been called Queen for a very, very long time.

If you think about Mary in life, she was always there with Jesus, from the annunciation to His death, and all the events in between. She was there. So we understand that she is still with Him, as she has always been. “Queen of Heaven” is a title that acknowledges this.

 

[flyonthewall]

Well, I also believe that my Church, the Catholic Church, is the one, true Church. Yet I am very interested in what Mormons believe, as I am interested in many religions. Mormonism is fascinating because it is truly another religion entirely. Its certainly not like discussing theology with a Presbyterian. I would consider it extremely presumptuous to believe I understood them before I had made many inquiries. I am far from understanding them after nearly two years of speaking with them and asking questions. In many ways it has been an extremely frustrating experience.

I would hope that you would believe that your church is the one true church, it would hardly be worth believing in it if you did not.
This thread is not really about LDS beliefs about Heavenly Mother, but Catholic beliefs about her.
I realize that we differ on the concept of Heavenly Mother, and that you call Mary by that title(if I am understanding what is being said). While that may fit the bill within Catholicism, it does not fit within our beliefs.
While we both may use the term “Heavenly Mother”, the person that title is attached to are separate individuals with different roles
Heavenly Mother to LDS is the mother of our spirits, a literal spirit parent.
While Mary may be the mother of the mortal Christ, she is not the mother of our spirits.

 

[lax16]

IHeavenly Mother to LDS is the mother of our spirits, a literal spirit parent.
While Mary may be the mother of the mortal Christ, she is not the mother of our spirits.

So God had spirit children with heavenly mother and had Jesus with Mary? Are these his wives or what type of relationship does God have/had with these women?
If Jesus and lucifer are brothers, who is lucifer’s mother?
Are we brothers and sisters of Jesus and lucifer?

Please cite scriptural sources for reference.

 

[gatewood1988]

I think it is very awkward though that in the Pearl of Great Price (LDS Scripture) it mentions plural Gods lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/4?lang=eng and also fascimile 3 lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-3?lang=eng is clearly a page from the Egyptian Book of the Dead where the goddess Maat brings the Pharaoh before the god Osiris’ throne and before his wife Isis who is standing behind him.
Book of the dead page, closely resembling: admatch-syndication.mochila.com/pimg/APInc/APNewsFeatures/2010/11/02/Britain_Book_of_the_Dead-40515_17682dc01a.largeslideshow.jpg

and if you look closely at fascimile 2 lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-2?lang=eng
you can see the barge of Thoth with his baboon servant, the apis bull, the four sons of Horus, the barge of Ra, and the two faced depiction of the potter god Khnum.

 

[KathleenGee]

Gatewood,

Checking out your links…after spending some time here discussing different points of view in regards to Mormonism…your links make me ask again what do Mormons really believe. More and more spins…they keep coming…

 

[flyonthewall]

So God had spirit children with heavenly mother and had Jesus with Mary?

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are the parents of all our spirits. Heavenly Father is the Father of the mortal Jesus and Mary was His earthly mother.

Are these his wives or what type of relationship does God have/had with these women?

There is a “marriage” relationship between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Heavenly Father is still God to Mary.

If Jesus and lucifer are brothers, who is lucifer’s mother?

Heavenly Mother.

Are we brothers and sisters of Jesus and lucifer?

Spirit brothers and sisters.

Please cite scriptural sources for reference.

Please cite scriptural sources for reference of the Marian dogmas you believe in.

 

[Denise1957]

In looking at the links that Gatewood provided, I then decided to do a little further searching and found a Wiki article under the subject heading of ‘Bible Conspiracies.’ Of course Wiki isn’t always accurate with its info, and if such the case with this article, I hope that the LDS folks here will correct any possible misperception.

When the article mentions JST, it means Joseph Smith Translation. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the article, which can be found by scrolling about halfway down the page:

book-of-thoth.com/thebook/index.php/Bible_conspiracy_theory

Quote:

"Currently the LDS Church has in their possession ancient Egyptian papyriis that they claim Joseph Smith translated into what is now part of the Pearl of Great Price (PGP), sometime after JST manuscripts were mostly finished. Like the JST, the translation was more of an inspired revelatory process than a direct translation from Egyptian.

In the PGP facsimilies #1, #2, and #3, Smith further describes the Cainite curse, its relationship to Egypt, and identifies the subjects in the pictures as the patriarch Abraham and the Egyptian king Pharaoh, his wife, and a black-skinned slave named Olimlah. In the middle of another of the facsimilies, God is said to reside near Kolah, a star “which is above all others,” and some take that as meaning it is near the center of the universe. the facsimilies and the corresponding ancient Egyptian papyrii have been translated (at least in part) by Egyptologists and hiroglyphic linguists (non-LDS) and none of their translations have agreed with Smith’s." -unquote

Given the importance of Egypt in the LDS Church by Joseph Smith, along with what looks like the focus and importance on obtaining “knowledge” as has been mentioned by the LDS folks on the various LDS threads, I see that there are similarities in these aspects to gnosticism. I don’t think that the LDS folks here would agree with that, though, or consider themselves to be in any way gnostic, of course. And the secretism that is also an aspect of Mormonism is troubling, too. In Catholicism there’s nothing that’s “secret.” Nor should there be.

I have to wonder, too, at the idea of the ‘Cainite curse,’ as described by Joseph Smith. Does this, in LDS teachings, have anything to do with what another Protestant group called Christian Identity which believes (or some of them believe), in that Cain’s father was not Adam, but Satan? I hope that’s not what the LDS Church believes! There’s a lot more to the nutty Christian Identity belief system, but I’d rather not go into it here.

 

[bluelake]

Latter-day Saints believe in a Mother in Heaven, but affirm little has been revealed about her, and many think that no other Christians believe in a Heavenly Mother.

However, Catholics believe in a Mother in Heaven as well, and we know a LOT about her. If you want to know more about your Mother in Heaven, this is where you can find out.

LDS are not christians. They reject the Word of God and have accepted the writings of Joseph Smith. You can find all of this information at their web site.
Pray for them. they are nice folks.

bluelake

 

[lax16]

Please cite scriptural sources for reference of the Marian dogmas you believe in.

I know, why don’t you ask me questions then I will back it up with scriptural/historical references.

I will wait for the scriptural references for your answers, as I assume you are answering from an LDS doctrinal viewpoint, not your own.

 

[SteveVH]

I would hope that you would believe that your church is the one true church, it would hardly be worth believing in it if you did not.
This thread is not really about LDS beliefs about Heavenly Mother, but Catholic beliefs about her.
I realize that we differ on the concept of Heavenly Mother, and that you call Mary by that title(if I am understanding what is being said). While that may fit the bill within Catholicism, it does not fit within our beliefs.
While we both may use the term “Heavenly Mother”, the person that title is attached to are separate individuals with different roles
Heavenly Mother to LDS is the mother of our spirits, a literal spirit parent.
While Mary may be the mother of the mortal Christ, she is not the mother of our spirits.

Fly, yes I realize that we are speaking of two completely different ideas of a “Heavenly Mother”. The point of the particular post you referenced is that it seems that the Mormons posters on CAF are not interested in asking Catholics about their beliefs, but are here for the sole purpose of defending Mormonism. That is not a bad thing and certainly a valid reason to be here, but I just find it curious. One way to interpret this is that you believe you already know everything Catholics believe and understand the theology behind those beliefs and so asking questions would be pointless. I was only trying to point out that I am far from understanding Mormonism despite my efforts to do so and would hope that Mormons might actually have a question or two about our doctrines concerning Mary, our heavenly mother.

By the way, the notion that Mary was the mother only of the humanity of Jesus was condemned long ago as a heresy. She was the mother of a person, not a nature, and this person has both a human and divine nature. We, of course, know and believe that Jesus, in His divine state, has existed from eternity and has no beginning or end. Mary, however, gave birth to Jesus’ entire being and is, therefore, the “Mother of God”. This title was given to Mary in order to refute the very heresy you stated. It says more about Jesus than it does about Mary.

God bless.

 

[flyonthewall]

I know, why don’t you ask me questions then I will back it up with scriptural/historical references.

I will wait for the scriptural references for your answers, as I assume you are answering from an LDS doctrinal viewpoint, not your own.

A Proclaimation to the World is very clear that we all are sons and daughters of a Heaveny Father and Heavenly Mother.
Scriptures that tell us we are sons and daughters of God:
Psalms 82:6
Acts 17:29
Hebrews 12:9
Moses 1:13(LDS scripture)

Abraham 3:22-28(LDS scripture) describes the Divine council of all the children of God, and how Lucifer was one that rebelled and was cast out.

 

[SteveVH]

A Proclaimation to the World is very clear that we all are sons and daughters of a Heaveny Father and Heavenly Mother.
Scriptures that tell us we are sons and daughters of God:
Psalms 82:6
Acts 17:29
Hebrews 12:9
Moses 1:13(LDS scripture)

Abraham 3:22-28(LDS scripture) describes the Divine council of all the children of God, and how Lucifer was one that rebelled and was cast out.

We all believe that we are sons and daughters of God. How do Psalms, Acts and Hebrews give any indication that we have a heaveny mother? I guess I’m just wondering why you would use those Scriptural references.

 

[lax16]

A Proclaimation to the World is very clear that we all are sons and daughters of a Heaveny Father and Heavenly Mother.
Scriptures that tell us we are sons and daughters of God:
Psalms 82:6
Acts 17:29
Hebrews 12:9
Moses 1:13(LDS scripture)

Abraham 3:22-28(LDS scripture) describes the Divine council of all the children of God, and how Lucifer was one that rebelled and was cast out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lax16
So God had spirit children with heavenly mother and had Jesus with Mary?

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are the parents of all our spirits. Heavenly Father is the Father of the mortal Jesus and Mary was His earthly mother.

Quote:
Are these his wives or what type of relationship does God have/had with these women?

There is a “marriage” relationship between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Heavenly Father is still God to Mary.

Quote:
If Jesus and lucifer are brothers, who is lucifer’s mother?

Heavenly Mother.

Quote:
Are we brothers and sisters of Jesus and lucifer?

Spirit brothers and sisters.

Quote:
Please cite scriptural sources for reference.

Fly - I’ve re-posted our original question/answer exchange because the scriptures you’ve provided do not address these questions specifically.
I am asking for references relating to these questions because this is what sets the Mormons apart from other Christian denominations.
To say we are all sons and daughters of God is oversimplying a very unique LDS teaching.