LDS: What do you know about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?

[flyonthewall]

Fly, with all due respect, it is not about whatever works for us, it is about truth. Either one has the truth or one is being misled. Being misled doesn’t work for any of us. Hopefully that is why we are all here, to seek the truth and recognize it when it is in front of us.

Yes, we are all seeking truth. I believe I have the truth and so do you.
Peter John:

How can LDS be certain that what little they have been taught of their Mother in Heaven is correct if 1) It assumes that they themselves are co-eternal with God, and thus denies the power of God and
2) It gives the place that rightly belongs to the Heavenly Mother to a man, a “creature” no more than themselves?

1. While you may think it denies the power of God, I do not see that it does.
2. A “creature no more than themselves”? That is your take on it, not ours.
   If man is such a lowly creature, why is it Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man? Is Jesus the Son of Man? or the Son of God? Why are they synonymous?

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Fly, with all due respect, it is not about whatever works for us, it is about truth. Either one has the truth or one is being misled. Being misled doesn’t work for any of us. Hopefully that is why we are all here, to seek the truth and recognize it when it is in front of us.

Yes, we are all seeking truth. I believe I have the truth and so do you.

Yes, I agree and there can be no question that one of us is very wrong. If the CC is right, then you are in serious spiritual danger. If the LDS church is right then I’ll make it up later, somewhere along the line. We can go back and forth forever, but if it does not bring us closer to the truth then what is the point, really. This is serious stuff. It does matter what we believe and to pretend that what ever one wishes to believe, well that is just fine for them, is simply foolish in my estimation. Christ came to earth, suffered and died for us. Pretty serious, wouldn’t you say?

 

[flyonthewall]

Yes, I agree and there can be no question that one of us is very wrong. If the CC is right, then you are in serious spiritual danger. If the LDS church is right then I’ll make it up later, somewhere along the line. We can go back and forth forever, but if it does not bring us closer to the truth then what is the point, really. This is serious stuff. It does matter what we believe and to pretend that what ever one wishes to believe, well that is just fine for them, is simply foolish in my estimation. Christ came to earth, suffered and died for us. Pretty serious, wouldn’t you say?

I agree. I believe Christ came to earth, suffered, and died for us. I notice you mention nothing about Mary there. I also notice that Jesus mentions nothing about the status of Mary being conditional to our salvation.

If LDS are right, you will be the same person after death as in this life, and if you would not accept the gospel here, you will not accept it there. So it’s not as simple as “making it up later”.

 

[SteveVH]

I agree. I believe Christ came to earth, suffered, and died for us. I notice you mention nothing about Mary there. I also notice that Jesus mentions nothing about the status of Mary being conditional to our salvation.

Well, I wasn’t trying to give a treatise on the Catholic view of salvation. As far as Mary’s role in our salvation, it was her “yes” to God that brought forth the Savior of the world. So I would call that pretty important. In addition, she is the perfect model for us to follow in our Christian walk and a powerful intecessor in heaven on our behalf.

If LDS are right, you will be the same person after death as in this life, and if you would not accept the gospel here, you will not accept it there. So it’s not as simple as “making it up later”.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. So you would agree, the only real thing that matters is what we do and believe in this life. If we don’t make it here, we don’t make it there. Am I correct?

Thanks.

 

[KathleenGee]

The role of Mary can only be made manifest within the Church, sharing the same faith walk with us, both Latin and Orthodox. There is the spirituality of the Eucharist. And the knowledge of those fellow believers among us.

Then there are testimonies of countless Christians down through the ages who experienced the loving help and prayers of the Blessed Mother.

Some attribute in Revelations, a Great Sign appeared in the sky…as relative to Mary…

 

[flyonthewall]

Well, I wasn’t trying to give a treatise on the Catholic view of salvation. As far as Mary’s role in our salvation, it was her “yes” to God that brought forth the Savior of the world. So I would call that pretty important. In addition, she is the perfect model for us to follow in our Christian walk and a powerful intecessor in heaven on our behalf.

Believe it or not, we believe Mary to be a prime example of humility, obedience and righteousness.
We don’t believe there will be any intercessor between us and Jesus. Jesus is the only intercessor between us and the Father.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. So you would agree, the only real thing that matters is what we do and believe in this life. If we don’t make it here, we don’t make it there. Am I correct?

Thanks.

Yes, what is important is what we do with what we know. Of course that is the same with any religion, not just Christianity.
It is important to always seek truth, and if the Holy Spirit testifies of the truthfulness of something, then incorporate that into your life.
The key is the Holy Spirit. If you reject what the Holy Spirit testifies, then there are no second chances.

 

[ClamDigger]

As already mentioned, D&C 25:12 states that “the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me”, and “me” is referring to God, which is why your interpretation isn’t working. Further, the hymn in question does not contain any verse requesting the intercession of Joseph Smith, in contrast to the Hail Mary that you referenced.

As xixx mentioned, LDS pray to the Father alone, in the name of Jesus Christ. “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren” does not mean we can pray to/through Joseph Smith. It is a leap to go from the departed Saints being aware of our affairs to the Saints on earth petitioning them.

So, is it then acceptable within the LDS doctrine to pray the “Tota Pulchra Es” to Mary? It contains no petition in it. It is merely a song of praise to Mary.
Tota Pulchra Es:
Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the original stain is not in thee. Thy clothing is white as the snow and thy face is brilliant as the sun. Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the original stain is not in thee. Thou art the joy of Israel, the glory of Jersalem. Thou givest honor to our people. Thou art all beautiful, O Mary, and the original stain is not in thee. Amen.

 

[ClamDigger]

Believe it or not, we believe Mary to be a prime example of humility, obedience and righteousness.
We don’t believe there will be any intercessor between us and Jesus. Jesus is the only intercessor between us and the Father.

She is not an intercessor between us. She is an intercessor for and with us in the same way that when I ask you to pray for me, you become an intercessor with me and for me to God. However, some intercessors’ prayers are more powerful for us than others “for the prayer of a just man availeth much” (in the words of the James 5.16) and I know no human being more just than the Mother of God, full of grace.

 

[Peter_John]

Yes, we are all seeking truth. I believe I have the truth and so do you.

1. While you may think it denies the power of God, I do not see that it does.
2. A “creature no more than themselves”? That is your take on it, not ours.
   If man is such a lowly creature, why is it Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of Man? Is Jesus the Son of Man? or the Son of God? Why are they synonymous?

As long as you believe that any part of you can exist independently of God, you cannot consider God omnipotent. He is not omnipotent.

If you believe there are other gods besides God, if you believe that anything else exists co-eternal with God, if you believe that God can only create from matter that already exists, you deny God’s om(name removed by moderator)otence, which literally means denying God’s power. If in any way you define God’s omnipotence as relative or figurative, you deny God’s omnipotence.

Or do you beleive that God’s omnipotence is only relative to us, and that things exist over which God has no power?

I believe in a God who gives me free agency because he wants to out of love, not one who has to because I am an independent self-existent being.

If you disagree with that reasoning, then feel free to explain how believing any of those things – co-eternal existence with God, a multiplicity of gods, a God who can only create with what already exists – establishes God’s omnipotence, rather than diminishing it.

I did not say that Man is a lowly creature, I simply said a creature. A creature means something that has been created. Far from a lowly creature, the Bible tells us we are created a little lower than the angels. We are in fact quite blessed creatures because the very God who created us chose to manifest as one of us, and to call us friends. We do not believe that we exist before our conception – that is when we are created individually.

That’s what makes abortion so terrible. We have no debate as to when the Spirit enters the Body, since to us the Spirit did not exist until conception either. We become Chidren of God through baptism. Despite some things that St. Augustine wrote that led theological ideation for a long time about the corruptness of the human body, this is not our dominant view, and pope John Paul the Great expressed it best with his Theology of the Body.

SON OF MAN
When I read Jesus referring to Himself as the Son of Man I perceive the internal dialogue of the united Trinity. The Son of Man is the manifestiation of God within the Trinity which the person of Jesus fulfills. The Father is not the Son of Man, he was not born to a human woman. The Holy Spirit is not the Son of Man, he was not born to a human Woman. Jesus is God’s manifestation of the Trinity as a human Person, born of the creation called Man. He always speaks for the whole trinity, as being born human does not diminish divinity or unity. “Son of Man” is how God perceives Himself as incarnated in the person of Jesus.

There may be some other theological exegesis on it, but I understand it best just as described, and as with the general concept of Trinity, it is best meditated upon rather than trying to fully understand it. Than God shapes our consciousness, rather thn our consciousness trying to sahpe God through descriptive limitations.

One of the best expositions of this concept is actually in your Book of Mormon (I think in Alma) when it talks about how Jesus is both the Father and the Son. It is a very Trinitarian statement, taken in context.

Inherent with understanding the Incarnation as a functon of Trinity, is recognizing the significance of Mary in this role – she was alrady “full of grace” or “highly favored of the Lord” (depending on translation) and “blessed among women” before she even gave her sacred “yes” which allowed the work of Salvation to proceed.

 

[Peter_John]

Believe it or not, we believe Mary to be a prime example of humility, obedience and righteousness.
We don’t believe there will be any intercessor between us and Jesus. Jesus is the only intercessor between us and the Father.

Yes, what is important is what we do with what we know. Of course that is the same with any religion, not just Christianity.
It is important to always seek truth, and if the Holy Spirit testifies of the truthfulness of something, then incorporate that into your life.
The key is the Holy Spirit. If you reject what the Holy Spirit testifies, then there are no second chances.

So are you telling me that Mormons never ask other members of the Church to pray for them?

That seems inconsistent with the prayer role in the Temples.

We believe that we can ask anyone to pray for us, whether they live in this world or the next. The Holy Mother offers the most powerful prayers for us, but it is not limitied to her.

We take the Savior at His word when He says that death is done away. I would think that if anyone would recognize this aspect of communion of Saints. After all, you have a strong tradition of the founding fathers of the United Satates visiting Wilford Woodruff personally seeking proxy baptism – an intercessory act in this case sought from the living on behalf of the Dead. You havve longstanding traditions of Joseph Smith and other Latter-day leaders doing work in Heaven to advance the cause of your Gosperl here and in the eterneities – intercession byt the dead on bejhalf od the living – and you even pray “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren.”

What I find interesting about it is it just replaces the only Sacred Feminine manifestation in Christianity, and gives its place to a man. Essentially Mormonism replaces the Holy Mother with Joseph Smith, and then says, well there is a Heavenly Mother, but we can’t know anything about her.

 

[ClamDigger]

She is not an intercessor between us. She is an intercessor for and with us in the same way that when I ask you to pray for me, you become an intercessor with me and for me to God. However, some intercessors’ prayers are more powerful for us than others “for the prayer of a just man availeth much” (in the words of James 5.16) and I know no human being more just than the Mother of God, full of grace.

 

[SteveVH]

Believe it or not, we believe Mary to be a prime example of humility, obedience and righteousness.
We don’t believe there will be any intercessor between us and Jesus. Jesus is the only intercessor between us and the Father.

Just curious. Do you ever discuss Mary in your meetings as an example for us to live by? Has anyone ever stood up and given a testimony about Mary’s role in salvation history?

Yes, what is important is what we do with what we know. Of course that is the same with any religion, not just Christianity. It is important to always seek truth, and if the Holy Spirit testifies of the truthfulness of something, then incorporate that into your life.
The key is the Holy Spirit. If you reject what the Holy Spirit testifies, then there are no second chances.

And then we return to the same dilemma. I believe that the Holy Spirit has testified to me that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. You believe that the Holy Spirit has testified to you that this is the LDS Church. Baptists will claim to have a testimony that they are the one’s who possess the truth and so will the “Bible Believing Church of Podunk Idaho”. So who, if anyone, is actually hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit and how would you discern this?

This is incredibly important. If the Catholic Church is the one, true Church and you have rejected it, then have you not rejected what the Holy Spirit has testified and so “lost your chance”? Of course, this would apply the other direction as well, assuming the LDS church is correct. I believe you would agree that the Holy Spirit can only testify to truth. So, of all of us who claim the testimony of the Holy Spirit, at most, only one is right.

 

[SteveVH]

For any LDS poster. What is your opinion of the many Marian apparitions that have occurred over the years. I know that you hold the “Testimony” of three people in high regard. We have the testimony of thousands of people concerning these apparitions.

Just curious as to your take on this and the ramifications if they are true.

Thanks.

 

[flyonthewall]

As long as you believe that any part of you can exist independently of God, you cannot consider God omnipotent. He is not omnipotent.

I can and I do.

If you believe there are other gods besides God, if you believe that anything else exists co-eternal with God, if you believe that God can only create from matter that already exists, you deny God’s om(name removed by moderator)otence, which literally means denying God’s power. If in any way you define God’s omnipotence as relative or figurative, you deny God’s omnipotence.

That is your belief. not mine.

Or do you beleive that God’s omnipotence is only relative to us, and that things exist over which God has no power?

I believe in a God who gives me free agency because he wants to out of love, not one who has to because I am an independent self-existent being.

If you disagree with that reasoning, then feel free to explain how believing any of those things – co-eternal existence with God, a multiplicity of gods, a God who can only create with what already exists – establishes God’s omnipotence, rather than diminishing it.

The terms: Perfected, Glorified, and Exalted, must not mean the same thing to you as it does to me.

I did not say that Man is a lowly creature, I simply said a creature. A creature means something that has been created. Far from a lowly creature, the Bible tells us we are created a little lower than the angels. We are in fact quite blessed creatures because the very God who created us chose to manifest as one of us, and to call us friends. We do not believe that we exist before our conception – that is when we are created individually.

That’s what makes abortion so terrible. We have no debate as to when the Spirit enters the Body, since to us the Spirit did not exist until conception either. We become Chidren of God through baptism. Despite some things that St. Augustine wrote that led theological ideation for a long time about the corruptness of the human body, this is not our dominant view, and pope John Paul the Great expressed it best with his Theology of the Body.

That at least is a good start for you.
The reference to being made “a little lower than the angels” is in reference to Christ, and by extention relates to us too.
Now “angels” isn’t quite the correct translation. Other translations have the word as “God”. The Hebrew text does not contain the word angels but reads as follows: “For thou hast made him a little less than the gods [Elohim].”

The recent Revised Standard Version translates: “Yet thou hast made him little less than God.”
The original language lines up perfectly well with LDS theology.

SON OF MAN
When I read Jesus referring to Himself as the Son of Man I perceive the internal dialogue of the united Trinity. The Son of Man is the manifestiation of God within the Trinity which the person of Jesus fulfills. The Father is not the Son of Man, he was not born to a human woman. The Holy Spirit is not the Son of Man, he was not born to a human Woman. Jesus is God’s manifestation of the Trinity as a human Person, born of the creation called Man. He always speaks for the whole trinity, as being born human does not diminish divinity or unity. “Son of Man” is how God perceives Himself as incarnated in the person of Jesus.

There may be some other theological exegesis on it, but I understand it best just as described, and as with the general concept of Trinity, it is best meditated upon rather than trying to fully understand it. Than God shapes our consciousness, rather thn our consciousness trying to sahpe God through descriptive limitations.

That is an interesting take on it.

One of the best expositions of this concept is actually in your Book of Mormon (I think in Alma) when it talks about how Jesus is both the Father and the Son. It is a very Trinitarian statement, taken in context.

Ironic, how you find one of the best descriptions of the Trinity is a description of Jesus Christ. This description excludes God the Father and the Holy Spirit, yet you find it fits best for the Trinity. Interesting indeed.

Inherent with understanding the Incarnation as a functon of Trinity, is recognizing the significance of Mary in this role – she was alrady “full of grace” or “highly favored of the Lord” (depending on translation) and “blessed among women” before she even gave her sacred “yes” which allowed the work of Salvation to proceed.

Do you believe the work of Salvation hinged totally upon Mary? If Mary said “no” Jesus would never have been born?

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Glorified”…I was thinking about this word one night on my drive home from work. Mormons use it to mean “become a god” or in terms of their god they call “god the father”, when he is described as being glorified they think it means he is becoming more of a god than he already is…growing in power and glory.

Of course, “glorified” means to give great praise. When we glorify God we are praising Him. This doesn’t give Him something He doesn’t already have. He isn’t dependent on us to be God.

It is another indication that their god is not omnipotent.

 

[flyonthewall]

Just curious. Do you ever discuss Mary in your meetings as an example for us to live by? Has anyone ever stood up and given a testimony about Mary’s role in salvation history?

Here is one article about her:
lds.org/ensign/1991/01/mary-his-mother?lang=eng&query=Mary
From our Gospel Doctrine teaching manual:

“Lesson 2: “My Soul Doth Magnify the Lord”,” New Testament Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, (2002)
Purpose
To help class members develop greater faith in Jesus Christ through a study of the lives of Elisabeth, Zacharias, John the Baptist, Mary, and Joseph.

I can only say that I do not recall any testimonies of Mary’s role in salvation.
We believe Jesus to be the author of our salvation, not Mary.

And then we return to the same dilemma. I believe that the Holy Spirit has testified to me that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. You believe that the Holy Spirit has testified to you that this is the LDS Church. Baptists will claim to have a testimony that they are the one’s who possess the truth and so will the “Bible Believing Church of Podunk Idaho”. So who, if anyone, is actually hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit and how would you discern this?

I am not qualified to say whether someone has heard the Holy Spirit or not. That is an individual thing. What I do think is that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth, and we believe that all religions have some portion of truth. A guess: possibly people feel the testimony of the truth about one thing but project it on everything else.

This is incredibly important. If the Catholic Church is the one, true Church and you have rejected it, then have you not rejected what the Holy Spirit has testified and so “lost your chance”? Of course, this would apply the other direction as well, assuming the LDS church is correct. I believe you would agree that the Holy Spirit can only testify to truth. So, of all of us who claim the testimony of the Holy Spirit, at most, only one is right.

If you do not reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, then you have not lost your “chance” or opportunity.
We believe all will be given the opportunity to hear the Word of God, and to accept it or reject it. In this life or the next.

 

[flyonthewall]

So are you telling me that Mormons never ask other members of the Church to pray for them?

That seems inconsistent with the prayer role in the Temples.

We believe that we can ask anyone to pray for us, whether they live in this world or the next. The Holy Mother offers the most powerful prayers for us, but it is not limitied to her.

Of course we ask others to pray for us, but we do not pray to others to pray for us. We pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, just as instructed.

We take the Savior at His word when He says that death is done away. I would think that if anyone would recognize this aspect of communion of Saints. After all, you have a strong tradition of the founding fathers of the United Satates visiting Wilford Woodruff personally seeking proxy baptism – an intercessory act in this case sought from the living on behalf of the Dead. You havve longstanding traditions of Joseph Smith and other Latter-day leaders doing work in Heaven to advance the cause of your Gosperl here and in the eterneities – intercession byt the dead on bejhalf od the living – and you even pray “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren.”

Yes we believe there are those on the other side of the veil working in our behalf, but we do not pray to them.

What I find interesting about it is it just replaces the only Sacred Feminine manifestation in Christianity, and gives its place to a man. Essentially Mormonism replaces the Holy Mother with Joseph Smith, and then says, well there is a Heavenly Mother, but we can’t know anything about her.

I really don’t see how you come to that conclusion. We have not replaced Heavenly Mother with anyone, but have come to realize that we have one…in Heaven.
It seems you have replaced our Heavenly Mother, with an earthly one.

 

[SteveVH]

I can only say that I do not recall any testimonies of Mary’s role in salvation.
We believe Jesus to be the author of our salvation, not Mary.

Do you believe her role was unique? What would have happened if her answer was “No” instead of “Yes”?

I am not qualified to say whether someone has heard the Holy Spirit or not. That is an individual thing. What I do think is that the Holy Spirit testifies of truth, and we believe that all religions have some portion of truth. A guess: possibly people feel the testimony of the truth about one thing but project it on everything else.

Would this not also apply to members of the LDS church?

If you do not reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, then you have not lost your “chance” or opportunity.

We believe all will be given the opportunity to hear the Word of God, and to accept it or reject it. In this life or the next.

Now I’m a little confused. I thought we had agreed that:

Originally posted by flyonthewall
If you reject what the Holy Spirit testifies, then there are no second chances.

You also said that:

Originally posted by flyonthewall
…you will be the same person after death as in this life, and if you would not accept the gospel here, you will not accept it there.

Now what you are saying is that if you don’t get it here you can make it up in the next life, are you not? I’m really just trying to figure out what you believe is required of us in this life and the eternal consequences. We believe that we have this life only to get it right, and by that I mean surrender to and acceptance of the saving love and mercy of God. Upon the moment of our death our destiny is sealed.

Thanks Fly.

 

[flyonthewall]

Do you believe her role was unique? What would have happened if her answer was “No” instead of “Yes”?

I believe Mary was unique because she was the Mother of Christ. I also believe that if she had said “no”, someone else would have accepted.

Would this not also apply to members of the LDS church?

Of course.

Now I’m a little confused. I thought we had agreed that:

We did agree. Nothing has changed.

You also said that:

True, and it changes nothing. Everyone will be given an opportunity to hear the gospel.

Now what you are saying is that if you don’t get it here you can make it up in the next life, are you not? I’m really just trying to figure out what you believe is required of us in this life and the eternal consequences. We believe that we have this life only to get it right, and by that I mean surrender to and acceptance of the saving love and mercy of God. Upon the moment of our death our destiny is sealed.

Thanks Fly.

If you hear the Gospel in this life, and the Holy Spirit testifies of it, and you reject it, you have closed that door. If you do not reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, then that door is not closed.
If you had no opportunity in this life to hear the gospel, you will have it in the next life. The key to “having an opportunity” is the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The person you become in this life is the same you will be in the next. If you would have heard the gospel and accepted the testimony of the Holy Spirit, here in this life, you would do so in the next. And of course if you would reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit in this life, you will reject it in the next.
So in effect, there are no second chances to accept or reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit on the gospel of Christ, there is only an opportunity. That opportunity may not be until the next life.

If we have this life only to get it right, then there have been billions of people that have had no knowledge of Jesus Christ, and therefore no opportunity to get it right. Are they without hope?

 

[SteveVH]

I believe Mary was unique because she was the Mother of Christ. I also believe that if she had said “no”, someone else would have accepted.

So she was not uniquely chosen by God to be the Mother of Christ? Her uniqueness lies only in that she accepted, but if she had not accepted, He would have just chosen someone else? So it wasn’t that she was unique, but rather that her role was unique?

If you hear the Gospel in this life, and the Holy Spirit testifies of it, and you reject it, you have closed that door. If you do not reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, then that door is not closed.
If you had no opportunity in this life to hear the gospel, you will have it in the next life. The key to “having an opportunity” is the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The person you become in this life is the same you will be in the next. If you would have heard the gospel and accepted the testimony of the Holy Spirit, here in this life, you would do so in the next. And of course if you would reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit in this life, you will reject it in the next.
So in effect, there are no second chances to accept or reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit on the gospel of Christ, there is only an opportunity. That opportunity may not be until the next life.

Thank you for this. I think I understand where you are coming from, though I may not agree with all of it.

If we have this life only to get it right, then there have been billions of people that have had no knowledge of Jesus Christ, and therefore no opportunity to get it right. Are they without hope?

We actually agree on this, in part. We do not hold that one must have been visited by a missionary and taught the Gospel in order to be saved. If that were the case, then those people would be dependant upon man for their salvation. We do believe that those who have not heard the Gospel with their ears, still have the laws of God written upon their hearts. They know that they should not steal from each other, or kill each other, for instance. We believe they will be judged according to what they knew in their hearts and how they applied that knowledge to their lives. The only difference really, is that they still have only this life in which to choose good or evil according to their state.

Peace