LDS - Where was the "Fear" in Joseph Smiths' First Vision?

[why_me]

I would also add to sincerely study the early Mormon church’s real history.

Nothing whitewashed, but unvarnished.

And compare the early Mormon church with the Mormon church of today and how it has evolved.

That kind of sincere study is worthy of the time and effort as well.

The early history of the lds church is actually very faith promoting. All churches have evolved over time, even the Amish. Don’t you think that the catholic church has involved over time? It certainly is not the same church of the middle ages. Would you encourage catholics to study the early catholic church’s ‘real’ history also?

 

[Marie5890]

The early history of the lds church is actually very faith promoting. All churches have evolved over time, even the Amish. Don’t you think that the catholic church has involved over time? It certainly is not the same church of the middle ages. Would you encourage catholics to study the early catholic church’s ‘real’ history also?

Indeed it has and has been very open about it is my experience.

It was my experience when I was LDS that they would greatly discourage a real teaching of its history.

I found its addressing of the MMM disappointing. Ah well.

Now I dont know if this is heresay now but its my understanding when the sunday school track year is the DC and church history that the manuals only mention one wife of BYoung? Kinda of disrespect is my thought of all those other women.

And I have never heard blood atonement discussed when talking church history.

I recall a GC address by BKPacker where he (paraphasing) told the membership that some things were not worth study and should be avoided…(I want to say it was mid '90s?)

For me, I just came to realize JSmith wasnt a prophet and the BoM wasnt inspired. It certainly isnt the history of the ancient North American people.

Pres. Benson often emphasized it’s keystone nature to the entire faith. If it it’s what it is purported to be, then Mormonism is false

Never mind the BoA.

 

[Techno2000]

He was an average boy raised in a protestant household. He was only 15 when this experience occured.

Matthew 24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

 

[why_me]

Indeed it has and has been very open about it is my experience.

I know that you like to do research. Can you recommend me a book that discusses the real history of the catholic church? I would appreciate it.

 

[why_me]

Matthew 24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Would this also apply to the Marian apparitions that certain people claimed to have seen? Could a prostestant also claim that these apparitions were of the devil, meant to deceive simple, holy souls? Or do you believe that these apparitions were geniunely from god? For example, Saint Faustina in her diary often saw christ in her visions. Were these real or from the devil? I have my own opinion but I will wait for yours.

 

[Marie5890]

I know that you like to do research. Can you recommend me a book that discusses the real history of the catholic church? I would appreciate it.

Oh goodness there are so many out there (2000 years is a very long time )… I LOVE love history!

My first favorite is

“How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization”

Thomas Woods, Jr

 

[TheosisM]

Oh goodness there are so many out there (2000 years is a very long time )… I LOVE love history!

My first favorite is

“How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization”

Thomas Woods, Jr

That book looks good, thanks!

 

[Techno2000]

Would this also apply to the Marian apparitions that certain people claimed to have seen? Could a prostestant also claim that these apparitions were of the devil, meant to deceive simple, holy souls? Or do you believe that these apparitions were geniunely from god? For example, Saint Faustina in her diary often saw christ in her visions. Were these real or from the devil? I have my own opinion but I will wait for yours.

These "approved " apparitions never go against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm

 

[TheosisM]

And of course Protestants are free to say that Marian apparitions are demonic or not from God, and many do say this. Just like how we don’t believe that the “First Vision” actually happened (nor do we believe that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mohammed, etc.), and some may even claim that it had a demonic origin if it did (I personally don’t believe this), non-Catholics can also say the same about the Marian apparitions, and they do.

 

[Techno2000]

Would this also apply to the Marian apparitions that certain people claimed to have seen? Could a prostestant also claim that these apparitions were of the devil, meant to deceive simple, holy souls? Or do you believe that these apparitions were geniunely from god? For example, Saint Faustina in her diary often saw christ in her visions. Were these real or from the devil? I have my own opinion but I will wait for yours.

The Devil Showed the Fatima Children Hell ?

"rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me.) The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals.

 

[Techno2000]

Would this also apply to the Marian apparitions that certain people claimed to have seen? Could a prostestant also claim that these apparitions were of the devil, meant to deceive simple, holy souls? Or do you believe that these apparitions were geniunely from god? For example, Saint Faustina in her diary often saw christ in her visions. Were these real or from the devil? I have my own opinion but I will wait for yours.

The Devil Showed St. Faustina Hell ?

"Today, I was led by an angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it – a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is the horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another.

 

[JC_Forgiven]

To the general reader of this thread:

One should realize that the word “fear” in the Bible is not the same connotation as the word “fear” today. The word “fear” meant “awe and reverence.”

If one reads Joseph Smith’s account, one finds that he began his prayer in the position of kneeling, and that as he describes the events that occurred, he relates that as he recovered his strength “I found myself lying upon my back, looking up into heaven.” So he had indeed fallen down, undoubtedly in awe and reverence and loss of natural strength in the presence of the Father and the Son, who spoke to him with power and authority because of his sincere faith and pure intent which he had shown by studying the Bible and kneeling in prayer.

Again, we are comparing “real fear” not the different meanings of fear. I have yet to read anyone throwing themselves flat on their backs. None of the other examples from the Bible were “awe and reverence”

Like Ezekial: This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

or

John: In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead.

Normally, in a “scared for your life” scenario, as Joseph Smith describes it with the brightness of the light so great, even brighter than the Sun, and so intense that it was going to burn everything up around him, wouldn’t it be more natural to fall to the ground face forward and cover your face and eyes from the brightness and shield the front side of you body?

In real life war, I never saw anyone throw themselves on their backs during an incoming grenade.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I read “The Book of Mormon” cover to cover years ago, and all I can remember is every time I turned the page there was a War, I never could get the point of this “Book”.

Hi, Techno 2000,
The first time I read the Book of Mormon, I remember loving the description of the visions of the tree of life that Lehi and Nephi had, and also loving King Benjamin’s discourse to his people in Mosiah 2-5. I struggled to find deep meaning or importance in the war chapters, which come mostly in the latter part of Alma and in Helaman, 3 Nephi, Ether, and Mormon and Moroni. But I loved Moroni 7 with its teachings about faith, hope and charity.

I came to appreciate the war chapters much later in life as I realized that there are so many parallels between spiritual warfare that is happening in the world today, and the warfare described in the Book of Mormon that required the diligent preparations of the righteous to be able to withstand the inroads of the group that was following the traditions of their fathers and wanted to dominate the land.

A major point of the book is a spiritual message for our time, for those who want a spiritual message from God about how to conduct themselves as the spiritual warfare all around the world becomes more intense. It centers in believing in Christ, and having faith that Christ is always going to be on the winning side in that spiritual warfare. Many people think the Bible is enough to engage in that spiritual warfare, but some have found that the Book of Mormon offers another set of insights which can be a source of additional strength and guidance. I like that additional strength and guidance, myself.

 

[ParkerD]

Again, we are comparing “real fear” not the different meanings of fear. I have yet to read anyone throwing themselves flat on their backs. None of the other examples from the Bible were “awe and reverence”

Like Ezekial: This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

or

John: In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead.

Normally, in a “scared for your life” scenario, as Joseph Smith describes it with the brightness of the light so great, even brighter than the Sun, and so intense that it was going to burn everything up around him, wouldn’t it be more natural to fall to the ground face forward and cover your face and eyes from the brightness and shield the front side of you body?

In real life war, I never saw anyone throw themselves on their backs during an incoming grenade.

Maybe our basic difference is how we view God. I don’t have a fear of how it might feel to see God, though I certainly don’t expect that to happen to me until some time in the spirit world. Why fear seeing God? One would need to be filled with the Holy Spirit to be able to see God, so in that situation I would think one’s eyes would tolerate looking at Him and the glory emanating from His presence.

It appears to me that the reactions of Ezekiel and John were from awe and reverence, not fear, and from the loss of physical strength because of the energy required within the physical body to endure the perfect presence of God. (You will remember how “virtue (strength)” went out of Jesus when the woman was healed who touched the hem of His garment.)

Joseph Smith’s reaction may not seem logical to you, but he was not seeing a grenade attack and he was receiving a message that required him to look up, not down.

 

[JC_Forgiven]

To the general reader of this thread:

One should realize that the word “fear” in the Bible is not the same connotation as the word “fear” today. The word “fear” meant “awe and reverence.”

If one reads Joseph Smith’s account, one finds that he began his prayer in the position of kneeling, and that as he describes the events that occurred, he relates that as he recovered his strength “I found myself lying upon my back, looking up into heaven.” So he had indeed fallen down, undoubtedly in awe and reverence and loss of natural strength in the presence of the Father and the Son, who spoke to him with power and authority because of his sincere faith and pure intent which he had shown by studying the Bible and kneeling in prayer.

Again, we are comparing “real fear” not the different meanings of fear. I have yet to read anyone throwing themselves flat on their backs. None of the other examples from the Bible were “awe and reverence”

Like Ezekial: This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

or

John: In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead.

Normally, in a “scared for your life” scenario, as Joseph Smith describes it with the brightness of the light so great, even brighter than the Sun, and so intense that it was going to burn everything up around him, wouldn’t it be more natural to fall to the ground face forward and cover your face and eyes from the brightness and shield the front side of you body?

In real life war, I never saw anyone throw themselves on their backs during an incoming grenade.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It appears to me that the reactions of Ezekiel and John were from awe and reverence, not fear.

The appearance to Daniel is unlike Joseph Smiths also. Notice two things, Daniel says he was afraid and fell to the ground face first. (Not in Awe) Second while laying face first, Gabreil brought him to his feet.

And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Joseph Smith’s reaction may not seem logical to you, but he was not seeing a grenade attack and he was receiving a message that required him to look up, not down.

Listen, whatever Joseph Smith was thinking is somewhere in the seven different acounts he had told. I have studied them in detail. Joseph described the incoming light as such:

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun”
“increased in brightness and magnitude, so that, by the time that it reached the tops of the trees, the whole wilderness, for some distance around was illuminated in a most glorious and brilliant manner. He expected to have **seen the leaves and boughs of the trees consumed, as soon as the light came in contact **with them”

Seems to me that when he saw that the brightness was go great and intense that the leaves and boughs would be consumed, in comparison, the event as Joseph described would be even greater than an incoming grenade…How about a rocket launch?

 

[ParkerD]

The appearance to Daniel is unlike Joseph Smiths also. Notice two things, Daniel says he was afraid and fell to the ground face first. (Not in Awe) Second while laying face first, Gabreil brought him to his feet.

And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, **I was afraid **and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

I had a hard time finding that particular vision, since there are four or five that Daniel describes in the Book of Daniel. None of the others describe him as being afraid, but if that particular vision where Gabriel appeared and taught Daniel about the end times is what you want to hang your hat on for legitimizing how a prophet reacts to a vision, then I suppose you can hang your hat wherever you want to hang it. It makes no difference to me. I love all of Daniel’s visions, and the interpretation thereof. I also love John’s visions and the interpretation thereof. We are living in the days they saw in vision.

Peace to all.

 

[Rocket_Man]

None of the others describe him as being afraid, but if that particular vision where Gabriel appeared and taught Daniel about the end times is what Peace to all.

I am hanging everything on the descriptions that the authors of the scriptures wrote about these events when the Glory of God appeared in such a way that Joseph Smith describes.

Your “awe and revelance” argument doesn’t work well when worked in with “Fear Not” exhortations. As they would be then “Stop your awe and revelance”.

How about Moses?

And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

 

[JC_Forgiven]

Your “awe and revelance” argument doesn’t work well when worked in with “Fear Not” exhortations. As they would be then “Stop your awe and revelance”.

I agree Rocket. Also look let’s look at Ezekial again.

I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it,** I fell facedown**, and I heard the voice of one speaking. He said to me, “Son of man, **stand up on your feet **and I will speak to you.” As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard him speaking to me.

Notice the spirit raising him to his feet just like Daniel. Yet, He left Joseph Smith lying on his back!

Once again in Matthew 17 with Peter, James, and John. We have them afraid, not in awe, and Jesus bringing them to their feet,** not leaving them lying on their back like Joseph Smith**.

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

And John, Doesn’t Jesus say "Do not be afraid as John was laying their at his feet, face down like a dead man. Jesus also reaches out and touches John.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.