LDS - Where was the "Fear" in Joseph Smiths' First Vision?

[ParkerD]

I am hanging everything on the descriptions that the authors of the scriptures wrote about these events when the Glory of God appeared in such a way that Joseph Smith describes.

Your “awe and revelance” argument doesn’t work well when worked in with “Fear Not” exhortations. As they would be then “Stop your awe and revelance”.

How about Moses?

And **Moses hid his face; for he was afraid **to look upon God.

Rocket Man,
When the shepherds were visited by the angel who announced to them the Savior’s birth, they had been busy doing what shepherds do, and weren’t expecting a manifestation from God at all. It’s not surprising to me that they had true fear when they saw the angel and the glory of the Lord shining “round about them”.

When Moses heard God’s voice out of the burning bush, he certainly wasn’t expecting a manifestation from God, either. He was curious about the bush, but his major focus was I would imagine on his duties as a shepherd. Little did he know what was about to happen to change his life in a major way. I would think “he was afraid to look upon God” because he was an old man and had had many experiences in his life but nothing like hearing the voice of God from a burning bush. His reaction of fear to “look upon God” seems likely given his circumstances, particularly since he did not have record that anyone else had ever “seen God”.

Joseph Smith, in contrast, went to the woods with a specific purpose in mind of communicating with God and receiving an answer. He had simple, child-like faith that he would indeed receive an answer. He was a reader of the Bible, so he knew men had had visions in the past and that marvelous things can come to a person who has faith if God has a reason to manifest a marvelous thing. No doubt he was not expecting to see God, but he was expecting to receive an answer, and was directly engaged in active faith with a specific expectation and purpose. I think the circumstances were different than Moses or the shepherds. He did have perhaps more faith than practically any other person on earth. Faith dispels fear. Fear and faith cannot coexist in the same heart at the same time.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket Man, Joseph Smith, in contrast, went to the woods with a specific purpose in mind of communicating with God and receiving an answer. He had simple, child-like faith that he would indeed receive an answer. He was a reader of the Bible, so he knew men had had visions in the past and that marvelous things can come to a person who has faith if God has a reason to manifest a marvelous thing. No doubt he was not expecting to see God, but he was expecting to receive an answer, and was directly engaged in active faith with a specific expectation and purpose. I think the circumstances were different than Moses or the shepherds. He did have perhaps more faith than practically any other person on earth. Faith dispels fear. Fear and faith cannot coexist in the same heart at the same time.

ParkerD

I don’t believe that Joseph Smith had more faith then anyone else in the world. Nor am I going to pray about whether he and the BoM is true. Instead I choose to compare Joseph’s account of the First Vision with people in scripture who also saw this “light brighter than the Sun”. This is important, as was said before, other authors felt it necessary to include these reactions and I wonder if they were given to help us seperate truth from error. Why read a lengthy book or pray for a witness when God has already given us the scripture to discern truth?

I have given you several scriptural examples and so has JC_Forgiven. Like the example of John in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus said to John, “Do not be afraid”. When you say “Fear and faith cannot coexist in the same heart at the same time”, would this statement had included the Apostle John?

Why doesn’t Jesus reach out and touch Joseph Smith and bring him to his feet if Joseph was indeed as weak lying on the ground as you say he was? Didn’t he do that with Daniel, Ezekiel, Peter, James, and twice to John? And why doesn’t Joseph show any fear when this great light of the glory of God was ready to consume him?

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD

I don’t believe that Joseph Smith had more faith then anyone else in the world. Nor am I going to pray about whether he and the BoM is true. Instead I choose to compare Joseph’s account of the First Vision with people in scripture who also saw this “light brighter than the Sun”. This is important, as was said before, other authors felt it necessary to include these reactions and I wonder if they were given to help us seperate truth from error. Why read a lengthy book or pray for a witness when God has already given us the scripture to discern truth?

I have given you several scriptural examples and so has JC_Forgiven. Like the example of John in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus said to John, “Do not be afraid”. When you say “Fear and faith cannot coexist in the same heart at the same time”, would this statement had included the Apostle John?

Why doesn’t Jesus reach out to Joseph Smith and bring him to his feet as He had with Daniel, Ezekiel,Peter, James, and twice to John? And why doesn’t Joseph show any fear when this great light of the glory of God was ready to consume him?

Rocket Man,
I would think that given your perspective and expectations, it would be a complete waste of your time and be like talking to the ceiling for you to pray about the truthfulness of the Joseph Smith account or the Book of Mormon.

If John had fear at a particular moment, then he lacked faith at that particular moment. You would remember the account of Peter on the water, and that he became afraid and began to sink, at which point we read Jesus’ words: “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”

Doubt and fear (other than “reverence and awe” which reflects Godly fear) are obstacles to faith, always.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket Man,
I would think that given your perspective and expectations, it would be a complete waste of your time and be like talking to the ceiling for you to pray about the truthfulness of the Joseph Smith account or the Book of Mormon.

I’m not expecting anything other than Joseph Smith First Vision to line up with scripture.

If John had fear at a particular moment, then he lacked faith at that particular moment. You would remember the account of Peter on the water, and that he became afraid and began to sink, at which point we read Jesus’ words: “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”

Faith and doubt…Not the kind of heart stopping fear that the Apostle John and others had shown.

Why doesn’t Jesus reach out and touch Joseph Smith and bring him to his feet if Joseph was indeed as weak lying on the ground as you say he was?

Doubt and fear (other than “reverence and awe” which reflects Godly fear) are obstacles to faith, always.

Seeing God’s power and glory is faith building including the heart stopping fear.

 

[why_me]

And of course Protestants are free to say that Marian apparitions are demonic or not from God, and many do say this. Just like how we don’t believe that the “First Vision” actually happened (nor do we believe that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mohammed, etc.), and some may even claim that it had a demonic origin if it did (I personally don’t believe this), non-Catholics can also say the same about the Marian apparitions, and they do.

Of course techno is free to think what he thinks but he does leave the door open for counter claims of demon influence. And you are right…protestants would not recognize the Marian apparitions and claim that they were something else. Techno needs to be aware when he claims that JS’s vision was demonic, he can also get the same comment about the marian apparitions.

 

[why_me]

Oh goodness there are so many out there (2000 years is a very long time )… I LOVE love history!

My first favorite is

“How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization”

Thomas Woods, Jr

This book will give me the real history of the catholic church? How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization seems to have a very procatholic title. Hopefully, it will contain the real history.

 

[why_me]

The Devil Showed the Fatima Children Hell ?

"rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me.) The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals.

It is not impossible. The devil shows her hell, in the belief that she will continue to think that her visions are from god. However, lets get to the nuts and bolts here. Joseph Smith, at 15, goes into the woods to pray about which church is true. His heart is sincere. He kneels down and begins to pray to his heavenly father. The Father decides to allow the devil to answer his prayer with a vision of Him and his son Jesus. The devil instructs Joseph to join none of the churches because they are all wrong. And God, just lets this all happen when this boy is seeking him in prayer? How could I ever just god again? How could god do that to a 15 year old boy?

Now with saint faustina. I could never see god allowing the devil so much power over someone’s life who is basically seeking Him in comfort. How could God allow a bride of christ to receive such visions from the devil. I would not want any part of that god. So no, I don’ think that faustina’s visions were demonic.

So that leaves two choices: either these visions were real, or faustina was deluded and JS was a liar. I see no middle ground here.

Now if you call Joseph Smith a liar you will need to prove it. Likewise for someone who claims that Faustina was deluded. And in both cases, it will not be easy.

 

[Techno2000]

Of course techno is free to think what he thinks but he does leave the door open for counter claims of demon influence. And you are right…protestants would not recognize the Marian apparitions and claim that they were something else. Techno needs to be aware when he claims that JS’s vision was demonic, he can also get the same comment about the marian apparitions.

No, I’m not saying flat out that Joseph Smiths apparition were demonic, because I wasn’t there. I’m saying it “might” be a possibility… sorry to be so mean,Yes it works both ways.

 

[why_me]

No, I’m not saying flat out that Joseph Smiths apparition were demonic, because I wasn’t there. I’m saying it “might” be a possibility… sorry to be so mean,Yes it works both ways.

I didn’t think that you were mean. I know of two christian faiths that have claimed visions. The catholic and the lds. I can not deny that Bernedette saw the virgin mary. And I can not deny that the children of fatima saw the virgin mary. But I also can not deny that Joseph Smith had a vision either.

I have read Faustina’s diary and it is very profound considering it is written by someone with very little education. It is a marvelous, spiritual book.

 

[TheosisM]

This book will give me the real history of the catholic church? How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization seems to have a very procatholic title. Hopefully, it will contain the real history.

Please inform us who can write the “real history” of the Catholic Church.

 

[TheosisM]

It is not impossible. The devil shows her hell, in the belief that she will continue to think that her visions are from god. However, lets get to the nuts and bolts here. Joseph Smith, at 15, goes into the woods to pray about which church is true. His heart is sincere. He kneels down and begins to pray to his heavenly father. The Father decides to allow the devil to answer his prayer with a vision of Him and his son Jesus. The devil instructs Joseph to join none of the churches because they are all wrong. And God, just lets this all happen when this boy is seeking him in prayer? How could I ever just god again? How could god do that to a 15 year old boy?

Now with saint faustina. I could never see god allowing the devil so much power over someone’s life who is basically seeking Him in comfort. How could God allow a bride of christ to receive such visions from the devil. I would not want any part of that god. So no, I don’ think that faustina’s visions were demonic.

So that leaves two choices: either these visions were real, or faustina was deluded and JS was a liar. I see no middle ground here.

Now if you call Joseph Smith a liar you will need to prove it. Likewise for someone who claims that Faustina was deluded. And in both cases, it will not be easy.

The way I see it is this (in both cases, and the same goes for all other visions, such as Mohammed’s): either the person in question made it up, had some sort of psychological issue, or it actually happened, and the source was either God or something demonic (I mean, the Devil telling someone not to join any churches? Satan wouldn’t do that!). It is clear that the Devil can (and does) deceive many. The issue here is not only whether God would allow the Devil to deceive a 15 year old boy (age really isn’t an issue here, that is irrelevant to bring up, and seems like an appeal to emotion), but ultimately goes back to the “problem of evil”, and whether/why God allows evil in the world. So, it is perfectly possible that the Devil deceived them. I personally believe that the “first vision” simply didn’t happen at all.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I personally believe that the “first vision” simply didn’t happen at all.

I’m with you on that! As well as their appeal that he wasn’t afraid because he had child like faith because he was only 15. I have four boys and it’s hard for me to get them to take the garbage sack out at night. But let’s look at this only from a biblical analysis of "first vision.

It’s important to remember Joseph’s Smiths words: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun” - “increased in brightness and magnitude, so that, by the time that it reached the tops of the trees, the whole wilderness, for some distance around was illuminated in a most glorious and brilliant manner. He expected to have seen the leaves and boughs of the trees consumed, as soon as the light came in contact with them”

And compare his vision with another angelophany in scripture.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the **angel of the Lord descended **from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

 

[JC_Forgiven]

It’s important to remember **Joseph’s Smiths **words: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun” - “increased in brightness and magnitude, so that, by the time that it reached the tops of the trees, the whole wilderness, for some distance around was illuminated in a most glorious and brilliant manner. He expected to have seen the leaves and boughs of the trees consumed, as soon as the light came in contact with them”

Appearance of the Most Holy Theotokos to** St. Sergius of RadonezhSt**.

Sergius rushed from the cell to the entrance, and suddenly it was illumined by a bright light, brighter than the sun. He beheld nearby in imperishable glory the Mother of God, accompanied by the Apostles Peter and John. **Unable to bear such a vision, St. Sergius reverently prostrated himself before the Mother of God. **

**She said to him, "Fear not, My chosen one! I have come to visit you. **Your prayer for your disciples and your monastery has been heard. Do not be troubled, for your habitation shall prosper, not only in your lifetime, but also after your departure to God.

What about Joseph Smith’s vision? What’s lacking in seven different accounts?

 

[Marie5890]

This book will give me the real history of the catholic church? How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization seems to have a very procatholic title. Hopefully, it will contain the real history.

WhyMe, I have a hard time believing that you sincerely expect one book and one book alone to be able to do an exhaustive history of this 2000 year old institution.

But then maybe you do.

Do you have that kind of expectation?

Hey, if you harbor ill feelings towards the Catholic church, have a party. You certainly aren’t the first. Many have come before you. You won’t be the last. Many will come after you.

She has survived 2000 years and has outlasted them all.

 

[why_me]

WhyMe, I have a hard time believing that you sincerely expect one book and one book alone to be able to do an exhaustive history of this 2000 year old institution.

Hey, if you harbor ill feelings towards the Catholic church, have a party. You certainly aren’t the first. Many have come before you. You won’t be the last. Many will come after you.

She has survived 2000 years and has outlasted them all.

Marie, you mentioned earlier that people should read the real history of the lds church as if this real history is not faith promoting or hidden by the lds. I then asked about the real history of the catholic church and asked you to recommend me a book that would have the real history. You did. I harbor no ill feelings toward the catholic church at all. But do you hold ill feelings about the mormon church? You seem to. You mentioned Mountain Meadows and blood atonement in Mormon history. And yet, Mountain Meadows was perfectly understandable when we consider the suspicion that certain mormons had of outsiders and of course, the army threat on Utah at that time. Outsiders had been burning mormon homes and killing them for many years before the mormons settled Utah. I don’t excuse Mountain Meadown at all but I can see the pychological problem that was behind the massacre.

But really the history of the catholic church can not be compared with the lds church. Both churches do however have negatives in their history.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie, you mentioned earlier that people should read the real history of the lds church as if this real history is not faith promoting or hidden by the lds. I then asked about the real history of the catholic church and asked you to recommend me a book that would have the real history. You did. I harbor no ill feelings toward the catholic church at all. But do you hold ill feelings about the mormon church? You seem to. You mentioned Mountain Meadows and blood atonement in Mormon history. And yet, Mountain Meadows was perfectly understandable when we consider the suspicion that certain mormons had of outsiders and of course, the army threat on Utah at that time. Outsiders had been burning mormon homes and killing them for many years before the mormons settled Utah. I don’t excuse Mountain Meadown at all but I can see the pychological problem that was behind the massacre.

But really the history of the catholic church can not be compared with the lds church. Both churches do however have negatives in their history.

Of course they both have negatives in their history. That is a given.
Do I harbor ill feelings about the LDS church. Not really “ill” feelings. More of a wish that that would be open and honest about their history (or least not be evasive about) with both their membership and all others when asked.

I find that that is at the very least misleading. At best deceitful, but I honestly don’t think the motives of the GA’s is to be deceitful, but certainly evasive. I was stunned when GBHinkley was on LKL and basically denied Lorenzo Snow’s “How God once one, man is. As God is, man may become”.

Or to be accurate when he said “I dont know that we teach that” My jaw dropped in disbelief.

I know I certainly was taught that.

Ah well. That is neither here nor there now. Monson is in charge. And I have no idea where he has taken the LDS church.

 

[ParkerD]

Of course they both have negatives in their history. That is a given.
Do I harbor ill feelings about the LDS church. Not really “ill” feelings. More of a wish that that would be open and honest about their history (or least not be evasive about) with both their membership and all others when asked.

I find that that is at the very least misleading. At best deceitful, but I honestly don’t think the motives of the GA’s is to be deceitful, but certainly evasive. I was stunned when GBHinkley was on LKL and basically denied Lorenzo Snow’s “How God once was, man is. As God is, man may become”.

Or to be accurate when he said “I dont know that we teach that” My jaw dropped in disbelief.

I know I certainly was taught that.

Ah well. That is neither here nor there now. Monson is in charge. And I have no idea where he has taken the LDS church.

Marie5890,
It is quite a different thing to say “As Christ was when He came to earth, God once was when He lived on an earth; and as Christ returned to His heir-ship throne when He was resurrected, man may become when he is resurrected” than to say the simple couplet that Lorenzo Snow formulated. I don’t know how in your mind you would have expected President Hinckley to have answered such a question in three minutes or less; I think it was an unfair question to ask in a setting that required fairly brief answers. If he had had three hours to answer, then perhaps it would have been a fair and reasonable question and he would have had time to give a full answer that addressed the question with the kind of depth such a question entails. No answer could have been meaningful in three minutes or less. People would have been short-changed with any three-minute answer he could have given.

 

[why_me]

Marie5890,
It is quite a different thing to say “As Christ was when He came to earth, God once was when He lived on an earth; and as Christ returned to His heir-ship throne when He was resurrected, man may become when he is resurrected” than to say the simple couplet that Lorenzo Snow formulated. I don’t know how in your mind you would have expected President Hinckley to have answered such a question in three minutes or less; I think it was an unfair question to ask in a setting that required fairly brief answers. If he had had three hours to answer, then perhaps it would have been a fair and reasonable question and he would have had time to give a full answer that addressed the question with the kind of depth such a question entails. No answer could have been meaningful in three minutes or less. People would have been short-changed with any three-minute answer he could have given.

Marie tends to forget that Gordon B. Hinckley was in his nineties when he appeared on Larry King Live attempting to answer questions as they were fired at him. He did do a good job though. But I can also see where he could get a little confused for a man of his age.

However, I am still waiting for a pope to appear on larry king live. I think that I will have a long wait though. The pope is not going to be on larry king live, or meet the press and any other secular news show answering questions. And of course nothing wrong with that. But Marie does need to be fair.

I have to give gordon b. hinckley some credit for appearing on larry king live. And in terms of church history, well, I don’t know. What should the lds church do to make marie happy? Has the catholic church been open and honest about its history. Some would claim no too. Hard to make everyone happy.

 

[Techno2000]

Has the catholic church been open and honest about its history. Some would claim no too. Hard to make everyone happy.

We have this :scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[why_me]

We have this :scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Thanks but you linked me to the wrong page. I did find the apologetic page after searching a little. I think that your parish has done a great job with the publications. However, you should talk to the priest about putting some of the pages on line from the publications.

I have been trying to get the local mormon wards to do the same thing but it falls on deaf ears. They just don’t seem to understand the importance of apologetics. And the catholic church where you are seems to be a beautiful church.

However, I have to say…that this does not have anything to do with real history. The mormons have their own general apologetic site that deals with controversial issues too from their history and doctrine.