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tkdnick
Guest
Wow, so we have a full-blown famous person here huh? How cool!
- Status
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Chris-WA
Guest
David, great to have you here. In your opinion, do you think your review of Bickmore’s book supports the LDS belief in the Great Apostacy (because that’s how it was presented on the FARMS website)? And if so, why did you convert to Catholicism and not Mormonism?
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Chris-WA
Guest
3
3DOP
Guest
Hi,
I have been asking this question at a prominent LDS site for over four years. I think I may safely say that the reason they believe in an apostasy, is because they believe in a Restoration. They seem to sense that this is a little bit backward.
It is my personal opinion that Catholics need to avoid the negative apologetics of the Protestants, and develop a uniquely Catholic approach to Mormonism which is based on forcing them to see that however much they differ with the Protestants, they take it for granted that the Protestants were right about the Reformation.
One can have a lot of fun ridiculing Mormon beliefs because they seem strange. I suggest that it would be stranger, if they didn’t have the unique distinctives that are attributed to them, which we find odd. Why should we expect Mormons, who say our Church apostatized, to agree with us about the Trinity, or that the Father is non-corporeal?
Catholics have the advantage if we will use it. We must emphasize that the Apostasy is their great weakness. Protestants cannot do that. The Protestants have for all practical purposes conceded this point 500 years ago.
Mormons are uncomfortable with putting the Restoration ahead of the Apostasy. They are increasingly aware that tired old Protestant techniques are inadequate in dealing with Catholics. Read the Reynolds piece linked by AugustineH354 above and you will see that they are thrashing a bit. Most of his talk is given to dispelling myths, admitting that they have been wrong, and implying that they have work to do.
I pay hardly any attention to their so-called wacky beliefs. Why? I don’t need to know about that. I know they hold their own beliefs and practices sacred. Without attacking, we only need show that the Protestants were wrong about the Catholic Church. That book by Bickmore, like Aug said, was completely geared toward Protestants. If we want them to start paying attention to Catholics as Catholics, we need to remind them that the first foundation of their faith, the apostasy, reasonably preceeds any angelic appearances to Joseph Smith. Explanations for the Book of Mormon are irrelevant if the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has survived.
To win Mormons, then, I am suggesting not that we learn their faith. We need to learn our own. Given this apostasy problem, it gives Catholics a unique apportunity to charitably reach where no evangelical may go.
I have been asking this question at a prominent LDS site for over four years. I think I may safely say that the reason they believe in an apostasy, is because they believe in a Restoration. They seem to sense that this is a little bit backward.
It is my personal opinion that Catholics need to avoid the negative apologetics of the Protestants, and develop a uniquely Catholic approach to Mormonism which is based on forcing them to see that however much they differ with the Protestants, they take it for granted that the Protestants were right about the Reformation.
One can have a lot of fun ridiculing Mormon beliefs because they seem strange. I suggest that it would be stranger, if they didn’t have the unique distinctives that are attributed to them, which we find odd. Why should we expect Mormons, who say our Church apostatized, to agree with us about the Trinity, or that the Father is non-corporeal?
Catholics have the advantage if we will use it. We must emphasize that the Apostasy is their great weakness. Protestants cannot do that. The Protestants have for all practical purposes conceded this point 500 years ago.
Mormons are uncomfortable with putting the Restoration ahead of the Apostasy. They are increasingly aware that tired old Protestant techniques are inadequate in dealing with Catholics. Read the Reynolds piece linked by AugustineH354 above and you will see that they are thrashing a bit. Most of his talk is given to dispelling myths, admitting that they have been wrong, and implying that they have work to do.
I pay hardly any attention to their so-called wacky beliefs. Why? I don’t need to know about that. I know they hold their own beliefs and practices sacred. Without attacking, we only need show that the Protestants were wrong about the Catholic Church. That book by Bickmore, like Aug said, was completely geared toward Protestants. If we want them to start paying attention to Catholics as Catholics, we need to remind them that the first foundation of their faith, the apostasy, reasonably preceeds any angelic appearances to Joseph Smith. Explanations for the Book of Mormon are irrelevant if the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has survived.
To win Mormons, then, I am suggesting not that we learn their faith. We need to learn our own. Given this apostasy problem, it gives Catholics a unique apportunity to charitably reach where no evangelical may go.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Wow, 3DOP! That is the most profound post I have read in a long time. I am an ex-Mormon Catholic, and you have given me a great deal to ponder.
Thank you,
Paul
Thank you,
Paul
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Chris-WA
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more. That’s why I’ve been trying to get these threads going on the Great Apostacy. In my opinion, it is the most critical issue between the RCC and LDS. I have noticed that most Mormons take the Great Apostacy for granted, citing Joseph Smith’s first vision as their most important reason for accepting it. They look at it just like you said: there was a restoration, therefore there must have been a great apostacy. Most have never critically looked at this issue on its own merits with the bible and early church history. I have heard LDS leaders speak of it at their general conferences, in which they claim apostacy was rampant and Greek philosophy replaced the truth, but never is this debated or critically examined. It’s just accepted. If Catholics don’t know their own faith and their own history, then we are ill-equipped to defend the continuity of our church.
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AugustineH354
Guest
Hi Chris,
You posted:
Now, with the above in mind, I see only two options for one who is a committed Christian: the RCC (for one who maintains continuity), or the CoJCoLDS (for those who believe in a “great” apostasy). Our separated Protestant brethren try to maintain (IMO) an intermediate position that has resulted in countless divisions (I have coined the phrase: “either divine development or divine restoration”).
I personally do not believe that LDS apologists have substantiated a valid reason for God to remove the keys of authority from the early Church; this coupled with John Henry Newman’s brilliant treatment on the development of doctrine tipped-the-scales (so to speak) in favor of the RCC. But, and I want to be clear on this, if I have made a wrong choice, I am quite sure God will let me know; and I say this because I a committed disciple of truth.
Grace and peace,
David
And this one thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches, whatever it omits, whatever it exaggerates or extenuates, whatever it says and unsays, at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this…To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant. – John Henry Newman
You posted:
Me: Thank you Chris.
Me: Yes and no. Remember, the two intended primary audiences of the book were Mormons and Protestants. With very few exceptions (see my above link to Dr. Reynolds insightful talk) Mormon apologetics have focused on Protestant objections; and as I stated earlier, this is to be expected because until the rise of “liberals” (spear-headed by Sunstone, and Signature Press) within the CoJCoLDS 99.9% of the anti-Mormon literature produced was from Protestants. Now, with that said, Bickmore’s book does not really address the “traditional” Catholic arguments for the continuity of the church that our Lord founded in the first century (though he attempts to do so in an internet debate with a lay Catholic - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/rc_dex.html).
Now, with the above in mind, I see only two options for one who is a committed Christian: the RCC (for one who maintains continuity), or the CoJCoLDS (for those who believe in a “great” apostasy). Our separated Protestant brethren try to maintain (IMO) an intermediate position that has resulted in countless divisions (I have coined the phrase: “either divine development or divine restoration”).
I personally do not believe that LDS apologists have substantiated a valid reason for God to remove the keys of authority from the early Church; this coupled with John Henry Newman’s brilliant treatment on the development of doctrine tipped-the-scales (so to speak) in favor of the RCC. But, and I want to be clear on this, if I have made a wrong choice, I am quite sure God will let me know; and I say this because I a committed disciple of truth.
Grace and peace,
David
And this one thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches, whatever it omits, whatever it exaggerates or extenuates, whatever it says and unsays, at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this…To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant. – John Henry Newman
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Chris-WA
Guest
Thanks for the clarification. I read the your review on the website, though, and I can easily see how your average Mormon would read it and say, “See, even a Catholic (if they find out you’re Catholic) is saying that the early church fathers support the Great Apostacy and Mormon doctrine.” Based on your own research, if you had put in your review "I personally do not believe that LDS apologists have substantiated a valid reason for God to remove the keys of authority from the early Church, " do you think that FARMS would have published it?
I agree that Mormons and Catholics have certain ideas in common that Protestants and Catholics do not–church authority, sacrement(s), etc., but I also think that we must make it absolutely clear to Mormons how the early church fathers were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice. I believe that certain Mormon apologists have conveniently ignored the vast majority of early church documentation in their attempts to show how a quote here or a line there supports their point of view. I can go back to the early church fathers and probably find one liners to support any conclusion I want to achieve, but when taken as a whole in context, it’s remarkable how in unison the fathers were in their writings about the universal church. Since you’re very well-read on the subject, I would like to hear your thoughts on this issue.
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ravJerome
Guest
The Church: Apostolic Stronghold of Faith
Christ promised that His church would never fall into total apostasy:
“I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).
According to Mormon teaching, the Christian church, though established and nurtured by Christ Himself and His handpicked Apostles, fell into total apostasy almost immediately. How interesting, then, that the Mormon Church’s major instructional manual, Gospel Principles, assures us that such a fate can never befall the “restored” latter-day church:
“The Lord will never allow the president of the [Mormon] church to teach us false doctrine.”[1]
Doesn’t this assertion raises the obvious question: If God is now able to guarantee the perpetual integrity of this “restored church” by protecting its spiritual leaders from error, why did He not do so in the first century?
I contest that the New Testament nowhere predicts a total apostasy. An article in the March 1991 issue of the Mormon church’s flagship publication, Ensign, cited 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as a biblical prediction of such an apostasy. The verse reads:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
This verse and its context (1:7-2:12) describe apostasy in terms of end-time or end of the world events, especially the coming of the Anti-Christ, and there is no indication that it will be universal. While Paul states that “the mystery of iniquity doth already work” (2:7), he clearly does not support the Mormon view of a total apostasy 1,900 years ago, at the beginning of the Christian era.
Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage cited five additional New Testament passages as predictions of universal apostasy.[2] Upon examination one finds that none of the passages predict a universal apostasy that extinguishes the Gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ (requiring a complete restoration at a later date).
• Matthew 24:4-5,10-13 says that “many” will be deceived and that “the love of many shall wax cold.” Many, but not all. It is clear that the text (which again focuses on end times) does not have in view a total apostasy, for verse 13 concludes,
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
[1] Gospel Principles (Salt Lake City: Corporation of the President of the Church of Latter-day Saints, 1988), 46.
Christ promised that His church would never fall into total apostasy:
“I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).
According to Mormon teaching, the Christian church, though established and nurtured by Christ Himself and His handpicked Apostles, fell into total apostasy almost immediately. How interesting, then, that the Mormon Church’s major instructional manual, Gospel Principles, assures us that such a fate can never befall the “restored” latter-day church:
“The Lord will never allow the president of the [Mormon] church to teach us false doctrine.”[1]
Doesn’t this assertion raises the obvious question: If God is now able to guarantee the perpetual integrity of this “restored church” by protecting its spiritual leaders from error, why did He not do so in the first century?
I contest that the New Testament nowhere predicts a total apostasy. An article in the March 1991 issue of the Mormon church’s flagship publication, Ensign, cited 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as a biblical prediction of such an apostasy. The verse reads:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
This verse and its context (1:7-2:12) describe apostasy in terms of end-time or end of the world events, especially the coming of the Anti-Christ, and there is no indication that it will be universal. While Paul states that “the mystery of iniquity doth already work” (2:7), he clearly does not support the Mormon view of a total apostasy 1,900 years ago, at the beginning of the Christian era.
Mormon Apostle James E. Talmage cited five additional New Testament passages as predictions of universal apostasy.[2] Upon examination one finds that none of the passages predict a universal apostasy that extinguishes the Gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ (requiring a complete restoration at a later date).
• Matthew 24:4-5,10-13 says that “many” will be deceived and that “the love of many shall wax cold.” Many, but not all. It is clear that the text (which again focuses on end times) does not have in view a total apostasy, for verse 13 concludes,
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
[1] Gospel Principles (Salt Lake City: Corporation of the President of the Church of Latter-day Saints, 1988), 46.
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ravJerome
Guest
• Acts 20:30 records the Apostle Paul’s warning to the elders of the Ephesian church that grievous wolves will “draw away disciples after them.” But nothing in the text supports the view that the faith of all the saints at Ephesus (let alone all saints everywhere) will be subverted. In fact, in Revelation 2:2 we find that the Ephesian saints heeded the warning of Paul, for Jesus commends them for not bearing
“them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.”
• 1 Timothy 4:1-3 predicts that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,” but not all.
• 2 Peter 2:1-3 predicts that “many,” but not all, will follow the pernicious ways of false prophets to come. Indeed, the context immediately following is inconsistent with the conclusion that universal apostasy may result. Verses 4-9 cite the Old Testament example of Lot’s deliverance from the city of Sodom before its divine destruction to make the point that even in the worst times of spiritual degeneration there are those who are kept true to God, and whom He preserves:
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment…” (v.9).
This passage constitutes a powerful argument for God’s providential protection of His people from universal apostasy.
• Revelation 13:4, 6-9 describes the persecution of Christians by Antichrist. We are told that it will be given unto him to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them” (v. 7). Again, a simple reading of the passage in context shows that it is describing events up to the end of the age, just before the return of Christ. Like 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it does not support the Mormon view of a great apostasy at the beginning of the Christian era. But even if one interprets this passage as applying to the early church, these verses clearly do not describe the falling away (“apostasy”) of Christians from the truth, but the martyrdom of Christians for the truth (at the hands of Antichrist): “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them” (v. 7). This passage is not describing apostates, but heroes of the faith.
So the passages that deal with apostasy do so with great seriousness. In no case, however, do they support the Mormon doctrine of a universal apostasy that extinguished the true gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ from the earth, necessitating their later restoration.
Christ promised His apostles that their converts’ faith would endure:
“I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go forth and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain” (John 15:16, emphasis added).
The theory of a universal apostasy in the generation immediately after the apostles is clearly inconsistent with Jesus’ promise here.
We read how Christ commended faithful churches at the twilight of the apostolic era. In the last book of the New Testament, Apphphapa (a.k.a. Revelation), is generally thought to have been written about A.D. 95, records Christ’s personal commendations of the churches at Smyrna (2:8-11) and Philadelphia (3:7-13) for standing fast against immorality and false doctrine. Jesus tells the congregation at Philadelphia:
“I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and has kept my word, and has not denied my name… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:8,10, emphasis added).
“them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.”
• 1 Timothy 4:1-3 predicts that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,” but not all.
• 2 Peter 2:1-3 predicts that “many,” but not all, will follow the pernicious ways of false prophets to come. Indeed, the context immediately following is inconsistent with the conclusion that universal apostasy may result. Verses 4-9 cite the Old Testament example of Lot’s deliverance from the city of Sodom before its divine destruction to make the point that even in the worst times of spiritual degeneration there are those who are kept true to God, and whom He preserves:
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment…” (v.9).
This passage constitutes a powerful argument for God’s providential protection of His people from universal apostasy.
• Revelation 13:4, 6-9 describes the persecution of Christians by Antichrist. We are told that it will be given unto him to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them” (v. 7). Again, a simple reading of the passage in context shows that it is describing events up to the end of the age, just before the return of Christ. Like 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it does not support the Mormon view of a great apostasy at the beginning of the Christian era. But even if one interprets this passage as applying to the early church, these verses clearly do not describe the falling away (“apostasy”) of Christians from the truth, but the martyrdom of Christians for the truth (at the hands of Antichrist): “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them” (v. 7). This passage is not describing apostates, but heroes of the faith.
So the passages that deal with apostasy do so with great seriousness. In no case, however, do they support the Mormon doctrine of a universal apostasy that extinguished the true gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ from the earth, necessitating their later restoration.
Christ promised His apostles that their converts’ faith would endure:
“I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go forth and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain” (John 15:16, emphasis added).
The theory of a universal apostasy in the generation immediately after the apostles is clearly inconsistent with Jesus’ promise here.
We read how Christ commended faithful churches at the twilight of the apostolic era. In the last book of the New Testament, Apphphapa (a.k.a. Revelation), is generally thought to have been written about A.D. 95, records Christ’s personal commendations of the churches at Smyrna (2:8-11) and Philadelphia (3:7-13) for standing fast against immorality and false doctrine. Jesus tells the congregation at Philadelphia:
“I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and has kept my word, and has not denied my name… Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:8,10, emphasis added).
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ravJerome
Guest
We read in 2 Timothy 2:2, St. Paul gives specific apostolic instructions for preserving pure apostolic doctrine and the integrity of the apostolic line of succession:
“The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”
If universal apostasy immediately followed the apostles, either these inspired instructions were inadequate, or the apostles themselves failed to follow them.
Writing about A.D. 180, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, cited the collective memory of the Christian community as the basis for confidence that the apostles’ teaching had been accurately preserved:
“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]…” (emphasis added).[1]
The Mormon church’s charge of a universal apostasy immediately after the time of the apostles requires us to believe that despite all the divine promises and safeguards, and with the ink barely dry on the New Testament Scriptures, God allowed the entire ministry of Christ and His apostles to be undermined by apostates, plunging humanity into spiritual darkness for 1800 years. Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture.
The lack of any biblical and historical evidence for such an apostasy poses a serious dilemma for the Mormon Church. If apostolic Christianity was not destroyed by such an alleged apostasy, there is no basis for Joseph Smith’s claim to have restored Apostolic Christianity.
[1] Against Heresies, IV, 33.8, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987 reprint
Long Live Pope John Paul 2 and may His Breathern Be Confirmed
Ps I can send the these 3 post as one document
“The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”
If universal apostasy immediately followed the apostles, either these inspired instructions were inadequate, or the apostles themselves failed to follow them.
Writing about A.D. 180, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, cited the collective memory of the Christian community as the basis for confidence that the apostles’ teaching had been accurately preserved:
“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]…” (emphasis added).[1]
The Mormon church’s charge of a universal apostasy immediately after the time of the apostles requires us to believe that despite all the divine promises and safeguards, and with the ink barely dry on the New Testament Scriptures, God allowed the entire ministry of Christ and His apostles to be undermined by apostates, plunging humanity into spiritual darkness for 1800 years. Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture.
The lack of any biblical and historical evidence for such an apostasy poses a serious dilemma for the Mormon Church. If apostolic Christianity was not destroyed by such an alleged apostasy, there is no basis for Joseph Smith’s claim to have restored Apostolic Christianity.
[1] Against Heresies, IV, 33.8, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987 reprint
Long Live Pope John Paul 2 and may His Breathern Be Confirmed
Ps I can send the these 3 post as one document
R
ravJerome
Guest
We read in 2 Timothy 2:2, St. Paul gives specific apostolic instructions for preserving pure apostolic doctrine and the integrity of the apostolic line of succession:
“The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”
If universal apostasy immediately followed the apostles, either these inspired instructions were inadequate, or the apostles themselves failed to follow them.
Writing about A.D. 180, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, cited the collective memory of the Christian community as the basis for confidence that the apostles’ teaching had been accurately preserved:
“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]…” (emphasis added).[1]
The Mormon church’s charge of a universal apostasy immediately after the time of the apostles requires us to believe that despite all the divine promises and safeguards, and with the ink barely dry on the New Testament Scriptures, God allowed the entire ministry of Christ and His apostles to be undermined by apostates, plunging humanity into spiritual darkness for 1800 years. Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture.
The lack of any biblical and historical evidence for such an apostasy poses a serious dilemma for the Mormon Church. If apostolic Christianity was not destroyed by such an alleged apostasy, there is no basis for Joseph Smith’s claim to have restored Apostolic Christianity.
[1] Against Heresies, IV, 33.8, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987 reprint
LOng Live Pope John Paul II and May His Brethern Bishops be Confirmed
“The things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.”
If universal apostasy immediately followed the apostles, either these inspired instructions were inadequate, or the apostles themselves failed to follow them.
Writing about A.D. 180, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, cited the collective memory of the Christian community as the basis for confidence that the apostles’ teaching had been accurately preserved:
“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which they have handed down that church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]…” (emphasis added).[1]
The Mormon church’s charge of a universal apostasy immediately after the time of the apostles requires us to believe that despite all the divine promises and safeguards, and with the ink barely dry on the New Testament Scriptures, God allowed the entire ministry of Christ and His apostles to be undermined by apostates, plunging humanity into spiritual darkness for 1800 years. Clearly, there is something wrong with this picture.
The lack of any biblical and historical evidence for such an apostasy poses a serious dilemma for the Mormon Church. If apostolic Christianity was not destroyed by such an alleged apostasy, there is no basis for Joseph Smith’s claim to have restored Apostolic Christianity.
[1] Against Heresies, IV, 33.8, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987 reprint
LOng Live Pope John Paul II and May His Brethern Bishops be Confirmed
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
The Keys given to Peter
The keys to the kingdom of heaven, to be with God forever stem from forgiveness and reconciliation. Tools given to the Church that Christ established by Christ. To extend to all humankind who can accept this awesome gift. Would God remove these keys from earth because he somehow became upset with his creation? His Church? The very body of Christ? These would be human traits not traits of God. God loves us as we are today even in our sins. He will love us tomorrow even in our sins. It is his love that will bring us out of our sins in order to live forever in His presence. To boast about a Great Apostasy is in itself an Apostasy against God and His Church. In the Catholic Church we understand our fallen nature, it is clear. Christ is at the very core of our faith daily. He will be with us until the end of time as we know it. He is the doctor we are the patients. This hospital is here to stay until his children are cured from pride and a pursuit for glory other than our sole Gods. This parable below is our Church, it is about each of us,.
Matt 13:24-30)
He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from? He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up? He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters,…
“First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’
The keys to the kingdom of heaven, to be with God forever stem from forgiveness and reconciliation. Tools given to the Church that Christ established by Christ. To extend to all humankind who can accept this awesome gift. Would God remove these keys from earth because he somehow became upset with his creation? His Church? The very body of Christ? These would be human traits not traits of God. God loves us as we are today even in our sins. He will love us tomorrow even in our sins. It is his love that will bring us out of our sins in order to live forever in His presence. To boast about a Great Apostasy is in itself an Apostasy against God and His Church. In the Catholic Church we understand our fallen nature, it is clear. Christ is at the very core of our faith daily. He will be with us until the end of time as we know it. He is the doctor we are the patients. This hospital is here to stay until his children are cured from pride and a pursuit for glory other than our sole Gods. This parable below is our Church, it is about each of us,.
Matt 13:24-30)
He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from? He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up? He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters,…
“First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’
T
tkdnick
Guest
ravJerome:
Thanks for the posts!!! They were very well done!!! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Thanks for the posts!!! They were very well done!!! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
M
mormon_fool
Guest
Quite awhile ago Tmaque (who I thank for speaking up against, shall we say, overzealous criticism of the LDS on a few occassions) asks:
Tmaque:
I recognize doctrinal development in both cases, Catholic and Mormon. So yes Mormon history of progressive doctrine and fundamentalistic apostates who can’t keep up (or claim their own spurious revelations) informs my expectations when I look for ancient apostasies. I think doctrinal development is acceptable when it happens under the direction of an authorized prophet/apostle, but not otherwise.
K
Katholikos
Guest
mormon fool:
In the Catholic Church, there has been organic development; i.e., deeper understanding over time of a core Truth. That’s doctrinal development. An oak tree grows grows from an acorn which has within it the genetic coding for a tree. It simply develops.
In Mormonism, there has been about face – now it’s true, now it isn’t – flip flop – in many contradictory “revelations” from God. The Mormon god changes his mind. An apple seed is planted and then is cut down and a fig tree is planted in its place.
The Mormon god changes his mind.
The Catholic God does not.
JMJ Jay
“Doctrinal development” does not mean “about face.”
In the Catholic Church, there has been organic development; i.e., deeper understanding over time of a core Truth. That’s doctrinal development. An oak tree grows grows from an acorn which has within it the genetic coding for a tree. It simply develops.
In Mormonism, there has been about face – now it’s true, now it isn’t – flip flop – in many contradictory “revelations” from God. The Mormon god changes his mind. An apple seed is planted and then is cut down and a fig tree is planted in its place.
The Mormon god changes his mind.
The Catholic God does not.
JMJ Jay
T
Tmaque
Guest
mormon fool:
This stands, in my mind at least, in stark contrast to LDS doctrinal changes that are in direct opposition to earlier church teachings. One cannot call, for instance, the Doctrine & Covenants inspired scripture and then claim that what it says in the 132nd section about plural marriage being necessary for entrance into the celestial kingdom, is no longer relevant because of doctrinal development. One cannot say, that the fact abortion and contraception are not sins now, but were 30 years ago is some sort of doctrinal development. Doctrine doesn’t “develop” itself into contradiction.
I’m not speaking of doctrinal development. Doctrinal development in the Catholic church, is a natural progression of church dogma that comes out of a better understanding of the traditions and teachings given to us by Jesus and the 12 apostles. There is no changing of doctrine on matters of faith and morals (what is moral or immoral, what we believe or don’t believe about God, what is necessary for salvation, etc.) in the Catholic church. There is a natural flow from a simpler understanding to a more complex understanding while not losing or changing any of the earlier understanding.
This stands, in my mind at least, in stark contrast to LDS doctrinal changes that are in direct opposition to earlier church teachings. One cannot call, for instance, the Doctrine & Covenants inspired scripture and then claim that what it says in the 132nd section about plural marriage being necessary for entrance into the celestial kingdom, is no longer relevant because of doctrinal development. One cannot say, that the fact abortion and contraception are not sins now, but were 30 years ago is some sort of doctrinal development. Doctrine doesn’t “develop” itself into contradiction.
A
Arch_Stanton
Guest
There is a book that was published in 1920 for the RLDS (consequently it may be foreign to the LDS) called The Call at Evening by Jessie Ward.
In the call at evening, a sort of default “cottage meeting” takes place over the course of several days/nights. In chapter 26, Ward writes what many RLDS and LDS still believe about how the Catholic Church went into apostasy.
Below is an excerpt from Ward’s book:
"So it came that in the third century the ministers began to forget the admonition of Christ to go without ‘purse or scrip,’ and indulged theselves in luxurious living. The bishop set up a throne and surrounded himself with ministers. They began to burn incense in many of the churches and to observe many rites and ceremonies. Buy the end of the fourth century, Mosheim again tells us, there was left only a ‘mere shadow of the ancient church government.’
"By the latter part of the fifth century, prayers to the saints and to the Virgin Mary were introduced. In the sixth century, the church had so far forgotten the meed and lowly Nazarene that whole nations were forced to accept Christianity on penalty of death. Orders of monks were introduced, and papal power became supreme. During this century the monks became very rich through gifts from the people. The use of holy water was also introduced during that period.
"In the eighth century the worship of images became so great that some of the Christians of the Greek church formed themselves into a body of image breakers, to destroy what they believed to be idolatry. These, however, were excommunicated in 869.
"In the ninth century the doctrine of transubstantiation was introduced. Predestination also began to be taught.
"In the tenth century the worship of the Virgin Mary became so intense as to almost equal that of Christ. It was also during this century that the rosary was intorduced.
"In the eleventh century the popes received the title: ‘Masters of the world.’
"From the twelfth to the sixteenth century the church waged the terrible persecutions against those who undertook to translate the Bible and allow it to be read by the people.
"From the sixteenth to the eighteenth century we see the coming forth of the different reformers.
"Now let us look at the church. By this time the quorum of twelve apostles had disappeared; the seventies were gone; the ordinance of baptism had been changed. The laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost was not practiced after the fifth century. Prophets no longer warned the people. Teachers were forgotten. The organization of the church was changed; the offices of popes and cardinals had come into existence.
"So the church was dead, and in its place stood one utterly unlike the church Christ had left. He had given them warning: ‘Ye shall not add unto the words which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught therefrom.’
The characters in the book go on to study Revelation and determine that the seven headed beast is Rome (and so the Catholic Church); the woman clothed with the sun is the church and her child is “caught up to heaven”, and “Thus it was that the kingdom of God was lost from the earth. Christ was no longer with the church by the power of his Spirit.” The woman/church flees into and is lost in the wilderness. One character comments, “So we see the fate of the church . . . her child taken fro her back to God’s throne, overcome by the dragon, swallowed up in the wilderness.”
The characters proceed to entangle themselves further before and after the little excerpt I have provided here. My point, however, is to give you an idea of their mentality towards the church and its history. It seems evident to me that the RLDS and other churches like it do not actually know the history of christianity and the church at all, and most importantly do not understand scripture.
In the call at evening, a sort of default “cottage meeting” takes place over the course of several days/nights. In chapter 26, Ward writes what many RLDS and LDS still believe about how the Catholic Church went into apostasy.
Below is an excerpt from Ward’s book:
"So it came that in the third century the ministers began to forget the admonition of Christ to go without ‘purse or scrip,’ and indulged theselves in luxurious living. The bishop set up a throne and surrounded himself with ministers. They began to burn incense in many of the churches and to observe many rites and ceremonies. Buy the end of the fourth century, Mosheim again tells us, there was left only a ‘mere shadow of the ancient church government.’
"By the latter part of the fifth century, prayers to the saints and to the Virgin Mary were introduced. In the sixth century, the church had so far forgotten the meed and lowly Nazarene that whole nations were forced to accept Christianity on penalty of death. Orders of monks were introduced, and papal power became supreme. During this century the monks became very rich through gifts from the people. The use of holy water was also introduced during that period.
"In the eighth century the worship of images became so great that some of the Christians of the Greek church formed themselves into a body of image breakers, to destroy what they believed to be idolatry. These, however, were excommunicated in 869.
"In the ninth century the doctrine of transubstantiation was introduced. Predestination also began to be taught.
"In the tenth century the worship of the Virgin Mary became so intense as to almost equal that of Christ. It was also during this century that the rosary was intorduced.
"In the eleventh century the popes received the title: ‘Masters of the world.’
"From the twelfth to the sixteenth century the church waged the terrible persecutions against those who undertook to translate the Bible and allow it to be read by the people.
"From the sixteenth to the eighteenth century we see the coming forth of the different reformers.
"Now let us look at the church. By this time the quorum of twelve apostles had disappeared; the seventies were gone; the ordinance of baptism had been changed. The laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost was not practiced after the fifth century. Prophets no longer warned the people. Teachers were forgotten. The organization of the church was changed; the offices of popes and cardinals had come into existence.
"So the church was dead, and in its place stood one utterly unlike the church Christ had left. He had given them warning: ‘Ye shall not add unto the words which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught therefrom.’
The characters in the book go on to study Revelation and determine that the seven headed beast is Rome (and so the Catholic Church); the woman clothed with the sun is the church and her child is “caught up to heaven”, and “Thus it was that the kingdom of God was lost from the earth. Christ was no longer with the church by the power of his Spirit.” The woman/church flees into and is lost in the wilderness. One character comments, “So we see the fate of the church . . . her child taken fro her back to God’s throne, overcome by the dragon, swallowed up in the wilderness.”
The characters proceed to entangle themselves further before and after the little excerpt I have provided here. My point, however, is to give you an idea of their mentality towards the church and its history. It seems evident to me that the RLDS and other churches like it do not actually know the history of christianity and the church at all, and most importantly do not understand scripture.
T
tkdnick
Guest
My goodness is that TOTALLY contrary to true history regarding most stuff. Amazing that people will believe some things withot ever looking into it themselves!
A
Arch_Stanton
Guest
There are also things the RLDS believes about the Church too bizarre to take seriously, but lets have some fun eh?
This is material I’ve collected for a website I’m currently writing. It’s just strange, the RLDS doesn’t cite its sources for the dates provided below. I suppose one is to assume that it is either “common” or perhaps “hidden” knowledge eh?
Evidences of the apostasy according the RLDS (from the “Go ye and teach” slides):
-Prayers offered for the dead (A.D. 200)
-Baptism of infants required (A.D. 254)
-Adoration of saints was started (A.D. 360)
-Mary called Mother of God (A.D. 438)
-Priests began to dress differently (A.D. 500)
-Prayers offered to Mary (A.D. 593)
-Holy water was introduced (A.D. 682)
[This is my favorite.] -Ritual introduced of kissing Pope’s toe (A.D. 708)
-Cardinals created (A.D. 817)
-Fasting on Fridays and Lent began (A.D. 988)
-Marriage of priests forbidden (at this time, all priests who were married had their marriages dissolved)(A.D. 1079)
-Rosary beads introduced (A.D. 1090)
-Money was accepted for masses (A.D. 1100)
-Sale of indulgences began (A.D. 1190)
-Transubstantiation of bread and wine declared, oral confession before a priest became mandatory (A.D. 1215)
-Catholics not allowed to read the Bible (A.D. 1229)
-The sacramental cup was forbidden to people at communion (A.D. 1263)
-Baptism by sprinkling was first legalized (A.D. 1311)
-Immaculate conception of Mary taught (A.D. 1854)
-Infallibility of the Pope declared (A.D. 1870)
-Assumption of Mary proclaimed (A.D. 1950)
The list goes on and on . . . . Hope this provided some chuckles.
Oh yeah, would someone please send me the Rite of Kissing the Pope’s Toe? (Just kidding.)
This is material I’ve collected for a website I’m currently writing. It’s just strange, the RLDS doesn’t cite its sources for the dates provided below. I suppose one is to assume that it is either “common” or perhaps “hidden” knowledge eh?
Evidences of the apostasy according the RLDS (from the “Go ye and teach” slides):
-Prayers offered for the dead (A.D. 200)
-Baptism of infants required (A.D. 254)
-Adoration of saints was started (A.D. 360)
-Mary called Mother of God (A.D. 438)
-Priests began to dress differently (A.D. 500)
-Prayers offered to Mary (A.D. 593)
-Holy water was introduced (A.D. 682)
[This is my favorite.] -Ritual introduced of kissing Pope’s toe (A.D. 708)
-Cardinals created (A.D. 817)
-Fasting on Fridays and Lent began (A.D. 988)
-Marriage of priests forbidden (at this time, all priests who were married had their marriages dissolved)(A.D. 1079)
-Rosary beads introduced (A.D. 1090)
-Money was accepted for masses (A.D. 1100)
-Sale of indulgences began (A.D. 1190)
-Transubstantiation of bread and wine declared, oral confession before a priest became mandatory (A.D. 1215)
-Catholics not allowed to read the Bible (A.D. 1229)
-The sacramental cup was forbidden to people at communion (A.D. 1263)
-Baptism by sprinkling was first legalized (A.D. 1311)
-Immaculate conception of Mary taught (A.D. 1854)
-Infallibility of the Pope declared (A.D. 1870)
-Assumption of Mary proclaimed (A.D. 1950)
The list goes on and on . . . . Hope this provided some chuckles.
Oh yeah, would someone please send me the Rite of Kissing the Pope’s Toe? (Just kidding.)
- Status