LDS--Why do you believe in the Great Apostacy?

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Ritual introduced of kissing Pope’s toe (A.D. 708)
:rotfl:
I’ll have to remember that if I am ever priviledged enough to meet the Pope in person!
Catholics not allowed to read the Bible (A.D. 1229)
I like this one too! There’s actually a lot of people who hold this to be truth.
 
  1. WHY DO LATTER-DAY SAINTS BELIEVE IN AN APOSTASY WHEN CHRIST TAUGHT THAT
    THE GATES OF HELL WOULD NOT PREVAIL AGAINST HIS CHURCH (Matt 16:18)?
    The interpretation that apostasy could not occur in the church because of
    Christ’s statement to Peter (i.e. that “the gates of hell would not prevail
    against it”), is not in harmony with either history or the remainder of
    scripture.
    Jesus Christ taught the Nephites: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that
    this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and
    the gates of hell will not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare
    more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine… buildeth upon a
    sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such…” (3
    Nephi 11:39)
    The Greek word translated as church in Matthew 16:18 is ecclesia, which
    literally means a “calling out.” This is further substantiated in D&C
    10:67, 69 where we are told that those who endure to the end will be
    established upon Christ’s rock and “the gates of hell shall not prevail
    against them.” Thus, the church mentioned in Matthew 16:18 was not an
    institution but a select group of righteous believers. (See August 1993
    Ensign, p. 52)
    A. Melvin McDonald in his book “The Day of Defense” (p. 61-62),
    summarized the fate of the Lord’s chosen apostles and other church leaders
    as recorded by early historians (such as Eusebius and Josephus) and the
    traditions of the early church as related by Foxe in his
    “Book of Martyrs.” Most scholars today consider much of this information as
    only legends with little historical evidence although the deaths of Peter
    and Paul are well documented by several early writers. A similar summary
    (with some corrections and additions) is included here for reference:
Taken from an email I sent to www.fair-lds.org
 
FATE OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN APOSTLES AND LEADERS
Apostles* Person Method of Death +Year AD
Location
  1. Judas Iscariot suicide - hanging 34
    Jerusalem (Matt 27:5; Acts 1:18)
    Steven stoned (Acts 7:58-60) 36 Jerusalem
  2. James the Great, beheaded with the 44 Jerusalem
    brother of John sword (Acts 12:1-2)
    son of Zebedee
  3. Thomas (doubting) run through with 52 Calamina,
    (or Didymus) a lance East India
  4. Philip scourged, stoned, 52
    Hierapolis,
    imprisoned, crucified Phrygia
    (Turkey)
  5. Bartholomew dragged, flailed 52
    Albinopolis,
    alive, crucified, Armenia
    beheaded
  6. Matthew, called slain with a 60
    Nadabah,
    Levi, Son of lance or battleaxe Ethiopia
    Alphaeus
  7. James the Less, thrown from the 60-62 ?
    Son of Alphaeus pinnacle, beaten,
    stoned, brains
    dashed out with a
    fullers club
  8. Simon Peter crucified upside 64-68 Rome
    down
  9. Paul beheaded by Nero 64-68 Rome
  10. Matthias stoned, beheaded 70
    Ethiopia
  11. Thaddaeus, brother shot with arrows 72-76 Edessa,
    of James (could be or crucified Greece
    Jude)
    Timothy beaten with clubs 73 ?
    Luke hanged on an olive 73 Boeotia,
    tree Greece
  12. Barnabas stoned to death 73 Salancan or
    Cyprus
    Mark dragged to pieces, 74
    Alexandria,
    burned to death Egypt
  13. Simon (Zelotes) crucified 74 Presia,
    Britain
  14. Andrew, brother burned to death 74 Patras,
    of Peter or crucified Greece
  15. John the beloved, banished to the no record no record
    brother of James Isle of Patmos
    the Great until AD 97 and
    Ephesus until
    AD 100 (Rev 1:9)
  • Numbers indicate disciples referred to in the Bible as Apostles
  • Dates are approximate (See also “The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His
    Apostles” - New Testament Institute Manual, pp. 214-215, for a New Testament
    chronological history

    John Foxe’s “Book of Martyrs” was first published in 1563. In his book he
    contended that the gates of hell had not prevailed against the church since
    it had “endured” from the days of Christ to his time despite “the uttermost
    strength and powers of all hell.” This having been stated, he later
    describes the state of religion in AD 1371 at the time of the persecutions
    of John Wickliff (also known as Wycliff):

    This is out of all doubt, that at what time all the world was in most
    desperate and vile estate, and the lamentable ignorance and darkness of
    God’s truth had overshadowed the whole earth…
    In these days the whole state of religion was depraved and corrupted:
    the name only of Christ remained amongst Christians, but his true and lively
    doctrine was as far unknown to the most part as his name was common to all
    men. As touching faith, consolation, the end and use of the law, the office
    of Christ, our impotency and weakness, the Holy Ghost, the greatness and
    strength of sin, true works, grace and free justification by faith, the
    liberty of a Christian man, there was almost no mention.
    The world, forsaking the lively power of God’s spiritual Word, was
    altogether led and blinded with outward ceremonies and human traditions; in
    these was all hope of obtaining salvation fully fixed; insomuch that
    scarcely any other thing was seen in the temples or churches, taught or
    spoken of in sermons, or finally intended or gone about in their whole life,
    but only heaping up of certain shadowy ceremonies upon ceremonies; neither
    was there any end of this their heaping.
    -more of the email in next post also
 
The Church did fall into all kinds of extreme tyranny; whereas the
poverty and simplicity of Christ were changed into cruelty and abomination
of life… The simple and unlearned people, being far from all knowledge of
the holy scripture, thought it quite enough for them to know only those
things which were delivered them by their pastors; and they, on their other
part, taught in a manner nothing else but such things as came forth of the
court of Rome; whereof the most part tended to profit of their order, more
than to the glory of Christ.
What time there seemed to be no spark of pure doctrine remaining… This
Wickliff, perceiving the true doctrine of Christ’s gospel to be adulterated
and defiled with so many filthy inventions and dark errors of bishops and
monks… could no longer abide the same…

Foxe goes on to describe the Church in the days of John Huss:
Code:
During all this time of Pope John [XXIII] there were three Popes
reigning together, neither was yet the schism ceased, which had continued
the space, already of thirty-six years; by reason whereof a General Council
was holden at Constance in AD 1414, being called by Sigismund the Emperor,
and Pope John XXIII. These three Popes were John, whom the Italians set up;
Gregory, whom the Frenchmen set up; Benedict, whom the Spaniards placed. In
this schismatical ambitious conflict everyone defended his Pope…
Pope John was deposed by the decree of the council, more than three and
forty most grievous and heinous crimes being proved against him: as that he
had hired Marcilius Parmensis, physician, to poison Alexander, his
predecessor; further that he was a heretic, a simoniac, a liar, a hypocrite,
a murderer, an enchanter, and a dice-player…

The correct interpretation of Matthew 16:18 becomes clear when one
understands that, to early Christians, “the gates of hell” were the entrance
to spirit prison or the place of departed spirits (see Mormon Doctrine, p.
342, Hades). As such, these gates figuratively symbolized physical and
spiritual death. Since the gospel was soon to be preached to those in spirit
prison (1 Pet. 3:18-19; 4:6) and since the resurrection would overcome the
effects of physical death, death and hell would not triumph over the church.
However, this does not mean that an apostasy would not occur. Christ’s
atonement would still vanquish physical and spiritual death even if the
church itself were lost. See also August 1993 Ensign, pp. 52-53.
It is obvious from the foregoing history and the many prophecies found
throughout the remainder of the New Testament that apostasy would prevail
after the deaths of the apostles and prophets (see John 16:1-4; Acts 20:29;
Gal. 1:6; 2 Thes. 2:3; 2 Tim. 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 4:3-4; 2 Pet. 2:1-2,
18-21; Rev. 13:7).
It is clear that Old Testament prophets also foresaw a complete apostasy
in the “latter days” when men would “reject knowledge” and God would reject
them (Hosea 3:5; 4:1-6). Isaiah speaking of this time said: “The earth also
is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the
laws, changed the ordinances, [and] broken the everlasting covenant” (Isa.
24:5). The law of Moses did not contain an everlasting covenant, it was only
by the blood of Christ’s sacrifice that God established his everlasting
covenant (Ezek. 37:26-27; Heb. 13:20). Isaiah further states, “For behold,
the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people…” (Isa.
60:2). Amos spoke in like manner of a day when God would send “a famine
of… hearing the words of the Lord,” that would extend “from sea to sea,
and from north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word
of the Lord, and shall not find it.” (Amos 8:11-12) Even during Israel’s
days of transgression they retained their scriptures and prophets. It was
only during the so-called dark ages of the earth’s history that the
scriptures were unavailable to the majority of mankind and the prophets were
absent for nearly two millennia. If a universal apostasy did not occur, then
John’s prophecy that he “saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth”
would make no sense. The time for a “restitution of all” of God’s words
(Acts 3:21) has come and a restoration of his heavenly kingdom is imminent.
Latter-day Saints declare with sincerity that God has raised up a prophet in
our day (Deut. 18:15) to restore his true church and the fullness of the
gospel of Christ. Only that church (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints) is teaching the fullness of Christ’s gospel and has God’s authority
to perform the saving ordinances. All others have “a form of Godliness but
[deny] the power thereof…” (2 Tim 3:5). See History of the Church, vol.
1, Introduction by B.H. Roberts for further information on the apostasy.
Taken from “Answering Challenging Mormon Questions,” pp. 25-32.
-more of the email.

P.S.: Visit www.josephlied.com. You will NEVER look at Mormonism the same way again!!! I admit that after going to www.fair-lds.org I was for a time convinced that Mormonism was the true faith. However, I prayed for this so-called “divine revelation” about the LDS church… I got one all right! I typed in www.josephlied.com (i never even heard of the website) and found out the TRUTH!
 
Seems to me that the LDS, along with the other “protestant” denominations claim that the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus, was a failure, and they were able to fix Jesus’ failure.

If they believe Jesus was a failure, why do they follow him?

To me the answere is obvious. There never was an apostacy, the Catholic Church which Jesus founded has not failed, and is still the one true church.
 
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jsk:
If they believe Jesus was a failure, why do they follow him?
Jim

Our Lord is perfect. He will never fail us. However, those who followed after the apostles did.

Paul
 
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Chazemataz:
You will NEVER look at Mormonism the same way again!!!
Same old, same old. Nothing new here.

“Sigh”…I was going to say more but it seemed too cheeky, so I took it out.
 
Catholics can admit that the Church has gone off-course several times in its history-- that is a matter of public knowlege. It is a self-correcting church— there are always people who do not fear speaking out. God guides such corrections.

Non-Catholics who claim that the Church has fallen into total and henious apostasy are blatantly wrong. The only apostasy that can be described as total and henious is genocide, holocaust, killing and victimizing others in order to cover-up one’s own sins, conversions forced at sword or gun-point. Naziism is a prime example.

Divergent forms of Christianity, where people adapt Christian teachings to their own culture, are NOT apostasy. They are simply “different”, so long as ethical behavior is taught and valued.

My sincere wish is that Mormons would work at fixing their own church and culture. Working on getting rid of racism, judgmental attitudes, teachings that women have no right to Heaven unless they have a man to lead them (you can read that either way 😛 ), rabid homophobia, pressure to tithe on people who have little financial resources, aggressive prostelytization and missionary work, their BOM, which as written, offends ALL of NorthAmerican Indians, etc. And-- other churches have the same sins within their own cultures.

There are some factions and offshoots of the Mormon Church that need a major overhaul before LDS is to be granted any serious consideration. Personally, I think that some of those factions and offshoots are nearing total and henious apostasy.

AUG and mormon fool, I sincerely appreciate your posts.
 
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