LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[paul_c]

I find it curious that members of the LDS (Mormon) church are constantly on this website trying to convert Catholics. So my question to the LDS proseltizers here is this: Why do you think you need to convert Catholics? What do you think we lack in terms of salvation that the chruch of the LDS offers?

You see, the Catholic Church offers the Apostolic truths AND the grace giving sacraments that Jesus initiated. Its practicing members love God by pray regularly, read scripture, partake of the sacraments, go to mass at least weekly and love thier neighbors through works of mercy and charity. The most devoted among us become preists and religious, giving up their lives to serve God and their fellow man, with vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

So what are we missing that you could provide through the Mormon church? What do we need to do that we don’t do already?

If you flip the question and ask me what you members of the LDS need to do that you don’t do already, I would say that you must partake of the sacraments as Jesus told us. Be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins and to gain the graces to be saved (John 3, Matthew 28, and many other scriptural references). Partake of the eucharist, because those that don’t eat his body and drink his blood will have no life within them (John 6, the last supper discourses, and 1corinthians 10, 11). When you fall through sin, reconcile with God through the sacrament of reconciliation, because we know that Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the right to forgive sins.

So lets discuss both ends of this>

1. What do you think Catholics don’t do that they need to do to be saved
2. Why you think you don’t need the sacraments?

 

[momor]

I find it curious that members of the LDS (Mormon) church are constantly on this website trying to convert Catholics. So my question to the LDS proseltizers here is this: Why do you think you need to convert Catholics? What do you think we lack in terms of salvation that the chruch of the LDS offers?

You see, the Catholic Church offers the Apostolic truths AND the grace giving sacraments that Jesus initiated. Its practicing members love God by pray regularly, read scripture, partake of the sacraments, go to mass at least weekly and love thier neighbors through works of mercy and charity. The most devoted among us become preists and religious, giving up their lives to serve God and their fellow man, with vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

So what are we missing that you could provide through the Mormon church? What do we need to do that we don’t do already?

If you flip the question and ask me what you members of the LDS need to do that you don’t do already, I would say that you must partake of the sacraments as Jesus told us. Be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins and to gain the graces to be saved (John 3, Matthew 28, and many other scriptural references). Partake of the eucharist, because those that don’t eat his body and drink his blood will have no life within them (John 6, the last supper discourses, and 1corinthians 10, 11). When you fall through sin, reconcile with God through the sacrament of reconciliation, because we know that Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the right to forgive sins.

So lets discuss both ends of this>

1. What do you think Catholics don’t do that they need to do to be saved
2. Why you think you don’t need the sacraments?

Great questions but I have to take exception to your statement that the most devoted Catholics become priests and religious. NOT TRUE! Any Catholic that gives their all to whatever vocation GOD calls them to are just as devoted.

 

[paul_c]

Great questions but I have to take exception to your statement that the most devoted Catholics become priests and religious. NOT TRUE! Any Catholic that gives their all to whatever vocation GOD calls them to are just as devoted.

That’s not really the point of the question.

 

[momor]

That’s not really the point of the question.

But still an inaccuracy that I felt should be corrected.

 

[paul_c]

But still an inaccuracy that I felt should be corrected.

This was not meant to demean the laity. ( I am a lay person myself. ) But to emphasize the sacrifice and devotion of our clergy and religious compared with that of the LDS. I work with a bishop in the LDS. He spends less time on his religious activities than I do.

 

[Javl]

I have studied not only Mormonism but also many of the other cults. I have also studied Islam and B’hai. I have found nothing in any of them that would convince me to leave the Catholic Church, let alone Christianity. None have anything to offer that can even come close to that of Catholicism. Why should I ( or anyone else ) leave the truth as given us by Jesus, and taught without error for 2000 years by the Catholic Church, for some false man-made religion especially when their falsity is so blatantly evident and flounted?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[paul_c]

I was hoping to hear from some mormons on what they think they offer Catholics that we don’t already have. I am surprised that none have responded as anxious as they are to make converts…

 

[Tmaque]

I’m an ex-Mormon and think I can answer your question. LDS believe they can offer us all of the requirements for salvation because they believe we don’t have any. They believe that only they have authority to baptize, etc. They believe we are not really baptized, have no priesthood, have no sacraments. They believe salvation (The Celestial kingdom or highest heaven) only exists through the ordinances of LDS Church. Hope this helps.

 

[sablouwho]

I’m an ex-Mormon and think I can answer your question. LDS believe they can offer us all of the requirements for salvation because they believe we don’t have any. They believe that only they have authority to baptize, etc. They believe we are not really baptized, have no priesthood, have no sacraments. They believe salvation (The Celestial kingdom or highest heaven) only exists through the ordinances of LDS Church. Hope this helps.

I was under the impression, when I was an investigator, that the LDS believe most people will get to one of the 3 levels of heaven, and fewer will be in outer darkness. I also though that getting to the celestial kingdom, I thought, was exaltation, rather than salvation?

 

[paul_c]

I’m an ex-Mormon and think I can answer your question. LDS believe they can offer us all of the requirements for salvation because they believe we don’t have any. They believe that only they have authority to baptize, etc. They believe we are not really baptized, have no priesthood, have no sacraments. They believe salvation (The Celestial kingdom or highest heaven) only exists through the ordinances of LDS Church. Hope this helps.

Well, I’d love one of them to say it. I think it would be extremely hard for the LDS to prove that they have valid sacraments while the Catholic Church does not. And I’d love to hear what those ordinances are that give them special levels of heaven.

 

[Tmaque]

I was under the impression, when I was an investigator, that the LDS believe most people will get to one of the 3 levels of heaven, and fewer will be in outer darkness. I also though that getting to the celestial kingdom, I thought, was exaltation, rather than salvation?

Technically you’re correct. LDS believe almost everyone will get to heaven. But what the faithful strive for is the Celestial kingdon and you need all the ordinances to get there. The lowest kingdom is one of servitude to the higher kingdoms. That doesn’t sound like a Catholic’s idea of heaven and that’s why I didn’t bring it up. Just trying to keep it simple.

 

[Tmaque]

Well, I’d love one of them to say it. I think it would be extremely hard for the LDS to prove that they have valid sacraments while the Catholic Church does not. And I’d love to hear what those ordinances are that give them special levels of heaven.

If the Great Apostasy occurred, and Joseph Smith was truly a prophet then the LDS do have the priesthood and the Catholic Church does not. I would say that the great apostasy never occurred and Joseph Smith, like Mohammed, was deceived by Satan. In any case, that’s why they think we need saving.

 

[ParkerD]

I was under the impression, when I was an investigator, that the LDS believe most people will get to one of the 3 levels of heaven, and fewer will be in outer darkness. I also though that getting to the celestial kingdom, I thought, was exaltation, rather than salvation?

Sablouwho,
I participate on this forum because of misconceptions that I would like to be able to overcome among those reading. The LDS do speak of “exaltation” often in a different way than the term “salvation”, but many verses in the New Testament that are speaking of salvation are describing “exaltation” if one understands the term as it is used in Mormonism. Christ desired that humankind will desire “exaltation”, but His plan is one of faith and free choice, not pushing “through the door.” He “stands at the door and knocks.”

All three levels of heaven are with a divine presence and in the midst of divine love, but with different glory in how that divine presence can be experienced due to eternal law. Basically, each person receives that kingdom of glory that they wanted and lived for. Especially is this the case when considering that so many faiths have not the slightest desire to have celestial marriage, nor to have a rulership throne as a joint heir with Christ in the sense of really possessing His divine qualities of love and compassion and knowledge and faith. Those attaining those glories will be doing what they desire to do, and it will not be in “servitude” to the other kingdoms–it will be serving God’s purposes in a way that is comfortable to them and brings them a sense of joy and accomplishment and purpose. The angels serve God joyfully and purposefully, and this is precisely what Matthew 22:30 says those who rejected celestial marriage on earth attain in the resurrection–to be “as the angels of God in heaven.”

 

[sablouwho]

Especially is this the case when considering that so many faiths have not the slightest desire to have celestial marriage, nor to have a rulership throne as a joint heir with Christ in the sense of really possessing His divine qualities of love and compassion and knowledge and faith.

Parker–my understanding of LDS belief is that non-LDS who didn’t know about the CK will still have a chance to enter due to missionaries in spirit prison combined with proxy ordinances. Can you confirm for me whether my understanding is correct?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker–my understanding of LDS belief is that non-LDS who didn’t know about the CK will still have a chance to enter due to missionaries in spirit prison combined with proxy ordinances. Can you confirm for me whether my understanding is correct?

Sablouwho,
The answer is “yes” and “no”. D & C 137:7-8 talks about those “without a knowledge of it” who “would have received it with all their hearts”, so it really depends on the desire of their heart.

Those who outright rejected marriage on earth during their mortal life and had knowledge of the Bible, when Adam was given Eve and Eve was given Adam as an obvious blessing that was their major “first blessing” when they were placed on earth, must not have wanted to “receive it with all their hearts,” so it would not make sense that they suddenly change their mind in the spirit world. Nor would they have had the mortal experiences of family life that would have led to the kind of sanctification through the forgiving and growing that marriage and children bring to life, so it would not make sense that they are prepared for a marriage in heaven, but they will have the kind of happiness they desired and were preparing to receive by their own choices in life.

It will still be happiness and joy for them, just different than the married couples in heaven who will have a “oneness” in spiritual awareness and understanding of each other that grew out of their earth-life experiences.

 

[TheosisM]

Sablouwho,
The answer is “yes” and “no”. D & C 137:7-8 talks about those “without a knowledge of it” who “would have received it with all their hearts”, so it really depends on the desire of their heart.

This is a little similar to the Catholic concept of “baptism of desire”:
**
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. **

 

[Annie_B]

I was hoping to hear from some mormons on what they think they offer Catholics that we don’t already have. I am surprised that none have responded as anxious as they are to make converts…

I don’t think any of us are here to convert. Maybe that is why you are not getting the responses you had hoped.
Annie

 

[paul_c]

I don’t think any of us are here to convert. Maybe that is why you are not getting the responses you had hoped.
Annie

So why ARE you here?

 

[Tmaque]

Sablouwho,
I participate on this forum because of misconceptions that I would like to be able to overcome among those reading. The LDS do speak of “exaltation” often in a different way than the term “salvation”, but many verses in the New Testament that are speaking of salvation are describing “exaltation” if one understands the term as it is used in Mormonism. Christ desired that humankind will desire “exaltation”, but His plan is one of faith and free choice, not pushing “through the door.” He “stands at the door and knocks.”

All three levels of heaven are with a divine presence and in the midst of divine love, but with different glory in how that divine presence can be experienced due to eternal law. Basically, each person receives that kingdom of glory that they wanted and lived for. Especially is this the case when considering that so many faiths have not the slightest desire to have celestial marriage, nor to have a rulership throne as a joint heir with Christ in the sense of really possessing His divine qualities of love and compassion and knowledge and faith. Those attaining those glories will be doing what they desire to do, and it will not be in “servitude” to the other kingdoms–it will be serving God’s purposes in a way that is comfortable to them and brings them a sense of joy and accomplishment and purpose. The angels serve God joyfully and purposefully, and this is precisely what Matthew 22:30 says those who rejected celestial marriage on earth attain in the resurrection–to be “as the angels of God in heaven.”

I meant to say in servitude to the celestial kingdom(CK). However, Joseph Smith clearly taught that those in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God and that they cannot live in God’s presence. “but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” ( D&C 76:112 ) While the telestial kingdom in LDS theology is a much better place than Earth, you’re still outside of God’s presence which is no Christian’s idea of Heaven. If everyone in the CK are gods then doesn’t it stand to reason the poor schulbs in the TK will be their servants since they are now “God”?

From Wikipedia:
According to Doctrine and Covenants section 76, those who will inhabit the telestial kingdom include those “who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus.” [21] It also includes “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” [22] Because of their refusal to accept Jesus as their Savior, these individuals will suffer in hell for their sins for 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ. [23] After the 1000 years, the individuals in hell will be resurrected and receive an immortal physical body and be assigned to the telestial kingdom. [24]

Joseph Smith taught that individuals in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God, but “where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end”; [25] however, they will receive the ministration of the Holy Ghost and beings from the terrestrial kingdom. [26] Despite these limitations, in LDS theology being resident in the telestial kingdom is not an unpleasant experience: “the glory of the telestial … surpasses all understanding”. [27]

Joseph Smith also taught that just as there are different degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom (D&C 131:1-4), there are different degrees of glory within the telestial kingdom. He stated that “as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in the telestial world.” [28] Each person’s glory will vary depending on their works while on the earth. [29]

I’m sorry but after getting a little perspective on this it’s seem like science fiction/fantasy. The Christian view makes much more sense, and I bear my testimony to you that the Catholic Church is the true church of Christ. I know it to be true. Please ask God to give you the strength to ask the questions: Is it possible that Joseph Smith was not your prophet? Is it possible that the Book of Mormon is not inspired? Then really do some research. Not being willing to at least ask these questions and explore the answers may keep you from heaven.

 

[Tmaque]

I don’t think any of us are here to convert. Maybe that is why you are not getting the responses you had hoped.
Annie

Of course you’re here to convert, albeit by planting seeds and fellowshipping. There’s nothing wrong with that. Welcome!