LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[ParkerD]

I meant to say in servitude to the celestial kingdom(CK). However, Joseph Smith clearly taught that those in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God and that they cannot live in God’s presence. “but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” ( D&C 76:112 ) While the telestial kingdom in LDS theology is a much better place than Earth, you’re still outside of God’s presence which is no Christian’s idea of Heaven. If everyone in the CK are gods then doesn’t it stand to reason the poor schulbs in the TK will be their servants since they are now “God”?

From Wikipedia:
According to Doctrine and Covenants section 76, those who will inhabit the telestial kingdom include those “who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus.” [21] It also includes “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” [22] Because of their refusal to accept Jesus as their Savior, these individuals will suffer in hell for their sins for 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ. [23] After the 1000 years, the individuals in hell will be resurrected and receive an immortal physical body and be assigned to the telestial kingdom. [24]

Joseph Smith taught that individuals in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God, but “where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end”; [25] however, they will receive the ministration of the Holy Ghost and beings from the terrestrial kingdom. [26] Despite these limitations, in LDS theology being resident in the telestial kingdom is not an unpleasant experience: “the glory of the telestial … surpasses all understanding”. [27]

Joseph Smith also taught that just as there are different degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom (D&C 131:1-4), there are different degrees of glory within the telestial kingdom. He stated that “as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in the telestial world.” [28] Each person’s glory will vary depending on their works while on the earth. [29]

I’m sorry but after getting a little perspective on this it’s seem like science fiction/fantasy. The Christian view makes much more sense, and I bear my testimony to you that the Catholic Church is the true church of Christ. I know it to be true. Please ask God to give you the strength to ask the questions: Is it possible that Joseph Smith was not your prophet? Is it possible that the Book of Mormon is not inspired? Then really do some research. Not being willing to at least ask these questions and explore the answers may keep you from heaven.

Tmaque,
I suppose you realize that one such as yourself is living by the light and knowledge that will lead to the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is as the “glory of the moon” and has the presence of the Son of God from time to time. Since the LDS believe that God the Father has an eternal physical resurrected body of flesh and bones (not blood), whereas your belief is that God the Father is a spirit Being, then it seems to me that you will be in the presence of Those whom you have wanted to live with in eternity, so you will receive that glory which you had wanted and lived for.

The Telestial Kingdom is far different than the Terrestrial. Years ago, I saw the Wikipedia article you quoted from–thanks for letting me know that it still has parts that I had edited into it at that time years ago. (I write that to let you know that I am passionate enough and knowledgeable enough about Mormonism that it is not the slightest issue for me to be told what you wrote in your last sentence here. I am not a novice about these kinds of subjects.)

Also, those who receive the glory of the Telestial after their rescue by Christ from hell, and their resurrection to the glory they lived to receive, will not be servants of others, but be servants of God, who loves them, and they will have joy in that service–just not a fullness of joy. God is far more merciful than one such as yourself has been taught or has figured out that He is.

Have a good day.

 

[Tmaque]

Tmaque,
I suppose you realize that one such as yourself is living by the light and knowledge that will lead to the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is as the “glory of the moon” and has the presence of the Son of God from time to time. Since the LDS believe that God the Father has an eternal physical resurrected body of flesh and bones (not blood), whereas your belief is that God the Father is a spirit Being, then it seems to me that you will be in the presence of Those whom you have wanted to live with in eternity, so you will receive that glory which you had wanted and lived for.

The Telestial Kingdom is far different than the Terrestrial. Years ago, I saw the Wikipedia article you quoted from–thanks for letting me know that it still has parts that I had edited into it at that time years ago. (I write that to let you know that I am passionate enough and knowledgeable enough about Mormonism that it is not the slightest issue for me to be told what you wrote in your last sentence here. I am not a novice about these kinds of subjects.)

Also, those who receive the glory of the Telestial after their rescue by Christ from hell, and their resurrection to the glory they lived to receive, will not be servants of others, but be servants of God, who loves them, and they will have joy in that service–just not a fullness of joy. God is far more merciful than one such as yourself has been taught or has figured out that He is.

Have a good day.

Parker,

I’m so aware of God’s mercy. I’m so aware of my need for it. I would agree when I was LDS I was not taught the extent of God’s mercy, but now I grasp it more fully and more importantly I grasp my absolute need for it.
I appreciate your passion and I’m glad you’re here. I’m passionate about my faith as well. I always enjoy conversations/debates with smart people who know why they believe what they believe. God bless you.

Now, back to the discussion. In regards to “servants”. We all are servants of God in that sense. Are those in the CK NOT God’s servants in that sense? Of course they are. Obviously there’s a different meaning attached to it. If not why even make the distinction about being servants in the TK? It used to mean what it says. Servants, not quite slaves, but in servitude. I guess I don’t know what it means now.

 

[momor]

Do I understand this correctly about what the LDS believe?

That God the Father was once a flesh and blood human who was elevated to God status after His death by His own God the Father. And as God, He created His own universe which is where we live now. And when an LDS man dies and is elevated to god status he will create his own universe and creatures to serve him, and on and on ad infinitum?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I’m so aware of God’s mercy. I’m so aware of my need for it. I would agree when I was LDS I was not taught the extent of God’s mercy, but now I grasp it more fully and more importantly I grasp my absolute need for it.
I appreciate your passion and I’m glad you’re here. I’m passionate about my faith as well. I always enjoy conversations/debates with smart people who know why they believe what they believe. God bless you.

Now, back to the discussion. In regards to “servants”. We all are servants of God in that sense. Are those in the CK NOT God’s servants in that sense? Of course they are. Obviously there’s a different meaning attached to it. If not why even make the distinction about being servants in the TK? It used to mean what it says. Servants, not quite slaves, but in servitude. I guess I don’t know what it means now.

Tmaque,
I agree that all who are resurrected to a kingdom of glory will serve God, some as angels and some in a joint-heir relationship. To live righteously is to serve God, and to serve others is to serve God. The issue is in what capacity, not whether they will be involved in meaningful, joyful service.

 

[ParkerD]

Momor,
The concepts you think you have understood are incorrect. There is a belief that God the Father was once a man, just as Jesus was once a perfect and sinless Man of Holiness, as far as I’m concerned from what Joseph Smith taught.

God the Father as a resurrected Being has flesh and bones–not flesh and blood.

Creation is about serving God, who loves beauty and growth and development to greater capacities than when one started out. It is always about God. He is at the center of all growth and all knowledge and all the righteous power that exists in the universe. That will always be so–forever and ever.

 

[sablouwho]

God the Father as a resurrected Being has flesh and bones–not flesh and blood.

Parker, would you mind explaining why this distinction between bones and blood is important?

Thanks!

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, would you mind explaining why this distinction between bones and blood is important?

Thanks!

Sablouwho,
There is a different substance in a resurrected body than “blood”. I don’t know why the distinction is all that important, but it has been made in the pieces I have read on the subject of the resurrection. Good question, though. I’ll try to get more information on why it was viewed as important such that a distinction should be made.

 

[ParkerD]

Sablouwho,
There is a different substance in a resurrected body than “blood”. I don’t know why the distinction is all that important, but it has been made in the pieces I have read on the subject of the resurrection. Good question, though. I’ll try to get more information on why it was viewed as important such that a distinction should be made.

Sablouwho,
This is a follow-up comment after doing some reading and thinking about the question and the distinction.

Christ told Peter, “flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 15:17) Flesh and blood means a mortal body, with blood coursing through the veins and arteries. A mortal person had not communicated spiritual knowledge to Peter–God the Father had communicated the knowledge by His influence and the influence of the Holy Ghost through Spirit-to-spirit communication.

Christ also told the apostles, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” (Luke 24:39) The expression “flesh and bones” was made by Christ with a completely different meaning than when He said the words “flesh and blood” to Peter. He was referring to His own resurrected body, a body of “flesh and bones” which thus signifies a “resurrected body”. Both the physical, mortal body and the physical, immortal resurrected body have a spirit within their body, but the difference is that the immortal, resurrected body no longer has blood which is a mortal element.

 

[PaulDupre]

Do I understand this correctly about what the LDS believe?

That God the Father was once a flesh and blood human who was elevated to God status after His death by His own God the Father. And as God, He created His own universe which is where we live now. And when an LDS man dies and is elevated to god status he will create his own universe and creatures to serve him, and on and on ad infinitum?

That is exactly what they believe, though they are taught to deny it to non-members.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

 

[sablouwho]

That is exactly what they believe, though they are taught to deny it to non-members.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

Paul, can you say more about this? Is this a “milk before meat” thing? I was aware of these beliefs while I was investigating, but granted, this was due to my own studies and not due to anything the missies taught me, as far as I can remember, anyway.

May I ask what reason were you given by those in authority for not sharing it with non-Mo’s?

Thanks!

Also, have you written/posted anywhere about your conversion from LDS to Catholic? I would be curious to read about it if it is available somewhere.

 

[ParkerD]

Do I understand this correctly about what the LDS believe?

That God the Father was once a flesh and blood human who was elevated to God status after His death by His own God the Father. And as God, He created His own universe which is where we live now. And when an LDS man dies and is elevated to god status he will create his own universe and creatures to serve him, and on and on ad infinitum?

Momor,
The concepts you think you have understood are incorrect. There is a belief that God the Father was once a man, just as Jesus was once a perfect and sinless Man of Holiness, as far as I’m concerned from what Joseph Smith taught.

God the Father as a resurrected Being has flesh and bones–not flesh and blood.

Creation is about serving God, who loves beauty and growth and development to greater capacities than when one started out. It is always about God. He is at the center of all growth and all knowledge and all the righteous power that exists in the universe. That will always be so–forever and ever.

 

[ParkerD]

Paul, can you say more about this? Is this a “milk before meat” thing? I was aware of these beliefs while I was investigating, but granted, this was due to my own studies and not due to anything the missies taught me, as far as I can remember, anyway.

May I ask what reason were you given by those in authority for not sharing it with non-Mo’s?

Thanks!

Also, have you written/posted anywhere about your conversion from LDS to Catholic? I would be curious to read about it if it is available somewhere.

Sablouwho,
Missionaries are leading people to believe in Christ, in His atonement, in the blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost and the blessings of repentance. One who approaches a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change, has short-changed themselves and if they are taught in such a way as to think that is what they should do, then the teacher has also short-changed them. Covenant making means entering into a path of gaining spiritual knowledge. Many, many people do not want to enter such a path–they want to go about getting knowledge by traditional human means. Paul taught against doing that, in 1 Corinthians 2, as far as spiritual knowledge.

 

[sablouwho]

Sablouwho,
Missionaries are leading people to believe in Christ, in His atonement, in the blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost and the blessings of repentance. One who approaches a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change, has short-changed themselves and if they are taught in such a way as to think that is what they should do, then the teacher has also short-changed them. Covenant making means entering into a path of gaining spiritual knowledge. Many, many people do not want to enter such a path–they want to go about getting knowledge by traditional human means. Paul taught against doing that, in 1 Corinthians 2, as far as spiritual knowledge.

Parker, I am simply at a loss for why you would write this. I have already been very clear about the sincerity with which I approached Mormonism.

Yet your message seems to imply that I was “one who approache[d] a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change?”

That was not the case.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Parker, I am simply at a loss for why you would write this. I have already been very clear about the sincerity with which I approached Mormonism.

Yet your message seems to imply that I was “one who approache[d] a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change?”

That was not the case.

Not to mention, “Missionaries are leading people to believe in Christ, in His atonement, in the blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost and the blessings of repentance”, which only underscores the OP question. Without answering it.

 

[sablouwho]

…Many, many people do not want to enter such a path–they want to go about getting knowledge by traditional human means. Paul taught against doing that, in 1 Corinthians 2, as far as spiritual knowledge.

My conversion from being an agnostic Jew to faith in Christ was accomplished first through getting knowledge by traditional human means. I studied apologetics.

And then I prayed my heart out.

And I got an answer about Jesus–and gained spiritual knowledge in a very supernatural conversion experience.

However, according to what you’ve written, there was apparently something wrong with the way I did this.

Sorry, but I’m just not buying into this. I find it simply intolerable that someone would imply that my conversion was inauthentic or done improperly. Worse, Parker, is that you were replying to a post that I made in reply to someone else.

I realize that it is possible that I have misunderstood you. I hope that is the case, because I really find what you have said (and the way I have understood it) to be offensive.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Do I understand this correctly about what the LDS believe?

That God the Father was once a flesh and blood human who was elevated to God status after His death by His own God the Father. And as God, He created His own universe which is where we live now. And when an LDS man dies and is elevated to god status he will create his own universe and creatures to serve him, and on and on ad infinitum?

Journal of Discourses (JD) 6:3-4, Founder and 1st Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . "

Very different view of salvation.
Anna

 

[PaulDupre]

Sablouwho,
Missionaries are leading people to believe in Christ, in His atonement, in the blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost and the blessings of repentance. One who approaches a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change, has short-changed themselves and if they are taught in such a way as to think that is what they should do, then the teacher has also short-changed them. Covenant making means entering into a path of gaining spiritual knowledge. Many, many people do not want to enter such a path–they want to go about getting knowledge by traditional human means. Paul taught against doing that, in 1 Corinthians 2, as far as spiritual knowledge.

In other words, yes, It’s a “milk-before-meat” thing. They don’t want to scare off potential converts, so they keep the scary, repugnant LDS doctrines from investigators until (after baptism) they have thoroughly taken over their lives, then they slowly reveal the rancid Mormon “meat”.

That’s how it was for me when the missionaries taught me, and that’s how it was when I was a missionary.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

 

[Anna_Scott]

My conversion from being an agnostic Jew to faith in Christ was accomplished first through getting knowledge by traditional human means. I studied apologetics.

And then I prayed my heart out.

And I got an answer about Jesus–and gained spiritual knowledge in a very supernatural conversion experience.

However, according to what you’ve written, there was apparently something wrong with the way I did this.

Sorry, but I’m just not buying into this. I find it simply intolerable that someone would imply that my conversion was inauthentic or done improperly. Worse, Parker, is that you were replying to a post that I made in reply to someone else.

I realize that it is possible that I have misunderstood you. I hope that is the case, because I really find what you have said (and the way I have understood it) to be offensive.

I just posted the following. Salvation in Mormonism is entirely different from Catholicism and Protestantism:

Journal of Discourses (JD) 6:3-4, Founder and 1st Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . "

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I am simply at a loss for why you would write this. I have already been very clear about the sincerity with which I approached Mormonism.

Yet your message seems to imply that I was “one who approache[d] a study of the gospel intent on getting merely a body of doctrinal knowledge, without seeking the Holy Spirit as a primary cause for their study and prayers and life-change?”

That was not the case.

Sablouwho,
I didn’t mean to imply that you did that. I was responding to your question to PaulDupre, in that he had said that missionaries “are taught to deny it to non-members” which was completely untrue–outright false. I had tried to explain what missionaries are taught to teach, in a way that leads a person toward spiritual knowledge.

I think you had a valid approach and a valid conversion experience, but I do think the teaching of the Apostle Paul (who was writing to members who had already had a conversion experience) is still important to every sincere follower of Christ.

Again, sorry to have not explained myself better. I love the story of your conversion.

 

[ParkerD]

My conversion from being an agnostic Jew to faith in Christ was accomplished first through getting knowledge by traditional human means. I studied apologetics.

And then I prayed my heart out.

And I got an answer about Jesus–and gained spiritual knowledge in a very supernatural conversion experience.

However, according to what you’ve written, there was apparently something wrong with the way I did this.

Sorry, but I’m just not buying into this. I find it simply intolerable that someone would imply that my conversion was inauthentic or done improperly. Worse, Parker, is that you were replying to a post that I made in reply to someone else.

I realize that it is possible that I have misunderstood you. I hope that is the case, because I really find what you have said (and the way I have understood it) to be offensive.

Sablouwho,
As I have explained elsewhere, my intent is to try and alleviate misconceptions about the LDS church, and I was trying to do that when I read an untrue statement (not by you)–evidently not well, but I tried. Sorry.

And thanks again for sharing the story of your conversion to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. I think both your study and your prayers were important in that conversion, and I am very grateful to have seen your story and to have felt your very real sincerity.