LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[Javl]

Mormonism is not a cult nor is it recognized as a cult by the US government or law enforcement agencies.

Maybe not by the U.S. government or law enforcement agencies, which is strictly a political opinion, but by Catholics and Protestants where it does matter. I don’t care what you say, Catholics and Protestants all consider Mormonism, along with other organizations who claim to be Christian but in reality are not, a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[paul_c]

Maybe not by the U.S. government or law enforcement agencies, which is strictly a political opinion, but by Catholics and Protestants where it does matter. I don’t care what you say, Catholics and Protestants all consider Mormonism, along with other organizations who claim to be Christian but in reality are not, a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl, Be charitable. while we would all think they are misguided, All Catholics and Protestants don’t consider the LDS a cult.
.

 

[paul_c]

In reponse to this post about why mormons are here the answer is basically simple. Mormons are here to defend their faith. If they were here to convert and wandered into other sections of the forum, they would probably be shown the door. But on this section of the forum, mormons are constantly defending and explaining their belief system.

Why me, while I am sure you are correct that many Mormons are here to defend their faith, other Mormons are in the apologetic section of this forum all the time and they are clearly trying to convert others. Frankly, if not for that, this forum would never even bother discussing the LDS since the purpose of this forum is to give Catholic Answers. This section of the forum gives you an opportunity to explain you religion in your terms but also gives us the opportunity to explain where we think you are deviating from the Apostolic truth… Done properly, with Charity, it can open both sides up to understanding the truths of faith and morals.

 

[momor]

Momor,
The concepts you think you have understood are incorrect. There is a belief that God the Father was once a man, just as Jesus was once a perfect and sinless Man of Holiness, as far as I’m concerned from what Joseph Smith taught.

God the Father as a resurrected Being has flesh and bones–not flesh and blood.

Creation is about serving God, who loves beauty and growth and development to greater capacities than when one started out. It is always about God. He is at the center of all growth and all knowledge and all the righteous power that exists in the universe. That will always be so–forever and ever.

ParkerD, you said my understanding was not correct but others have said that it is.
How do you respond to what Anna Scott posted? It looks to me like it is very similar to my understanding.

Journal of Discourses (JD) 6:3-4, Founder and 1st Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . "

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, you said my understanding was not correct but others have said that it is.
How do you respond to what Anna Scott posted? It looks to me like it is very similar to my understanding.

Journal of Discourses (JD) 6:3-4, Founder and 1st Mormon Prophet, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”

“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . "

Momor,
I am very familiar with the text of the King Follett Discourse having read it many times. Here are some more passages from that transcription:

"The Scriptures inform us that “This is life eternal that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being he is,—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again."

“Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.”

" It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."

"What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, As the Father hath power in Himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down His body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do we believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God;…"

Joseph Smith did not choose the capitalization of the word “Gods” when he said “gods yourselves”, by the way. There is the distinction between “the only wise and true God” and those who become like God just as John wrote that man could become like Christ, through the grace and atonement of Jesus Christ and the faith of the person doing the living and the repenting.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna (is your username after the character of the same name in the movie Notting Hill?)

Um, I see you were quoting me and then re-posting about salvation in LDS theology. However I am unclear as to how your post relates to mine? If you wouldn’t mind clarifying I’d appreciate it.

thanks!

sablouwho,

I’m sorry I didn’t clariy. I have no doubt your conversion experience is valid.

I posted the LDS founder’s writings about salvation, just to let you and others know that the Mormon view of salvation is entirely different from what most mainstream Christians believe. Part of their goal in salvation is exaltation–becoming Gods themselves.

So, don’t let them tell you your experience is not valid.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . .Marriage seems to be necessary to get to the highest levels of heaven and if I read it right, the highest level (becoming gods) is only available to men who have had leadership roles in the LDS. According to Mormon teaching, it seems that the celibate St. Paul would not have attained to the highest level of heaven. Not sure how they reconcile the fact that Jesus was also celibate. . . . . .

According to Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, Jesus was a polygamist.

They will, no doubt, deny this is part of LDS Church teaching, now.
**
Mormon Apostle, Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, at page 158:**
". . .Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife. .

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, page 172:
“…the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist.the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that he approved the plurality of Wives under Christian dispensation… The son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings’ daughters and many of the honorable Wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time…”

Mormon Apostle, Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, at page 158:
". . .Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife. .

Mormon Apostle, Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, at page 158:
. . .hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father. Inasmuch as God was the first HUSBAND TO HER (Mary), it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity…"

 

[ParkerD]

Okay, thanks Parker for explaining this, I appreciate it and am sorry for being quick to draw conclusions. I am apparently very sensitive about my conversion and get defensive when I think it is being challenged.

Sablouwho,
I was very appreciative to have read that you understood my meaning after I clarified, and that I totally believe your conversion experience. I think you are a remarkable person, with much kindness and charity and also a quality of wisdom that stands out. Thank you for being the person you are with unique insights.

 

[ParkerD]

Anna Scott,
A book by Orson Pratt never was LDS teaching. It was his opinion, solely. This has been explained to you several times, but I guess you choose not to think as you read–your choice.

 

[Annie_B]

Maybe not by the U.S. government or law enforcement agencies, which is strictly a political opinion, but by Catholics and Protestants where it does matter. I don’t care what you say, Catholics and Protestants all consider Mormonism, along with other organizations who claim to be Christian but in reality are not, a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Not ALL Catholics and not ALL protestants:thumbsup: Maybe in general and those who believe it is not a cult are few and far between (compared to the Catholic and protestant churches as a whole) but you must always use caution when you claim a group to have ALL members believing a single idea
Annie

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna Scott,
A book by Orson Pratt never was LDS teaching. It was his opinion, solely. This has been explained to you several times, but I guess you choose not to think as you read–your choice.

Yes, ParkerD, this has been “explained” to me many times—just as you have “explained” to me many times that Second Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young’s claim that “Adam is our Father and God” was never a part of LDS Church teaching–even though Brigham Young taught this for more than 20 years, and being a Mormon “prophet,” claimed this was revealed to him by God, and that he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith.

Yes, ParkerD, these things have been explained to me many times.

Anna

 

[sablouwho]

Sablouwho,
I was very appreciative to have read that you understood my meaning after I clarified, and that I totally believe your conversion experience.

Parker, I am glad that we both feel better about this. And I apologize again for my tendency to jump to conclusions. Thank you for your belief in my conversion. It was one of the most important moments of my life, it was and still is deeply meaningful for me in a way that keeps revealing itself more as I grow in my faith.

I think you are a remarkable person, with much kindness and charity and also a quality of wisdom that stands out. Thank you for being the person you are with unique insights.

Well, gee thank you! I think you give me a lot of credit, more than I deserve, but I appreciate the compliment nonetheless!

Glad that we’re cleared things up.

 

[TheosisM]

Maybe not by the U.S. government or law enforcement agencies, which is strictly a political opinion, but by Catholics and Protestants where it does matter. I don’t care what you say, Catholics and Protestants all consider Mormonism, along with other organizations who claim to be Christian but in reality are not, a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Please see paul c’s post. The interesting thing is, some of those Protestants that call Mormonism a cult also call Catholicism a cult too . It’s best not to use such derogatory words, even when you think a religion is false.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Parker, I am glad that we both feel better about this. And I apologize again for my tendency to jump to conclusions. Thank you for your belief in my conversion. It was one of the most important moments of my life, it was and still is deeply meaningful for me in a way that keeps revealing itself more as I grow in my faith.

Well, gee thank you! I think you give me a lot of credit, more than I deserve, but I appreciate the compliment nonetheless!

Glad that we’re cleared things up.

sablouwho,
Keep in mind that Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed to him that the creeds of all the (Christian) “sects” are an “abomination” in the sight of God.

Catholics and Protestants fall into this category of “abomination.”

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

Anna

***Edited to Add Quotes from the Book of Mormon:

---

“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth” **(1 Nephi 14:10).
**
“And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . .” (1 Nephi. 14:17).

Link: scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14

 

[peary]

What do we lack for salvation?
Well, as all good Mormons know, Catholics don’t have salvation because they belong to an apostate church, and you have to join the LDS because THAT is the only cult (I mean church) that offers TRUE salvation!

 

[sablouwho]

sablouwho,
Keep in mind that Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed to him that the creeds of all the (Christian) “sects” are an “abomination” in the sight of God.

Catholics and Protestants fall into this category of “abomination.”

Anna, once again I am puzzled by your post–I am not seeing how you are relating what I have written about my own conversion from being a secular Jew to faith in Christ to what JS said.

From your comments it seems a safe bet that you and unfamiliar with the details of my conversion (which I’ve posted about on CAF), yet you appear to not so subtly be implying that my faith is an abomination.

At least, that is the way I am reading your post. If this is NOT what you meant to say, fine, but if it IS what you mean to say, well, I would suggest that such comments are rather rude and hurtful, again–from what you write it is evident that you are unaware of the details of my conversion–which had nothing to do with any creeds whatsoever. So such implications are not only rude, but also incorrect factually.

As for the BoM and JS, I’m a former LDS investigator who has read the entire BoM and who is well aware of the JS quote you provided above. I spent a LOT of time praying sincerely about the LDS Church, yet I never got the answer that the missionaries and ward members were hoping I would get.

I would appreciate an explanation of your post.

 

[ParkerD]

What do we lack for salvation?
Well, as all good Mormons know, Catholics don’t have salvation because they belong to an apostate church, and you have to join the LDS because THAT is the only church that offers TRUE salvation!

Peary,
A church doesn’t offer salvation, which one such as yourself should know if you have read the Bible. Christ offers salvation. The term “apostasy” has to do with certain leaders who took authority unto themselves–not with their followers, who do not know better than to follow what they have been taught. John wrote of the church going into the wilderness, and the leaders taking authority unto themselves is why that happened.

 

[RebeccaJ]

sablouwho- I found your conversion story to be inspiring.

Are you aware of the Association of Hebrew Catholics?

 

[Jay53]

Anna, once again I am puzzled by your post–I am not seeing how you are relating what I have written about my own conversion from being a secular Jew to faith in Christ to what JS said.

From your comments it seems a safe bet that you and unfamiliar with the details of my conversion (which I’ve posted about on CAF), yet you appear to not so subtly be implying that my faith is an abomination.

At least, that is the way I am reading your post. If this is NOT what you meant to say, fine, but if it IS what you mean to say, well, I would suggest that such comments are rather rude and hurtful, again–from what you write it is evident that you are unaware of the details of my conversion–which had nothing to do with any creeds whatsoever. So such implications are not only rude, but also incorrect factually.

As for the BoM and JS, I’m a former LDS investigator who has read the entire BoM and who is well aware of the JS quote you provided above. I spent a LOT of time praying sincerely about the LDS Church, yet I never got the answer that the missionaries and ward members were hoping I would get.

I would appreciate an explanation of your post.

Anna can answer for herself, but I think she was pointing out that Joseph Smith is one who claimed that “your faith” is an abomination. She gave the quotes from the Book of Mormon, which imply that any faith/creed other than LDS is an abomination in the eyes of God.

(If I remember correctly, Anna was once LDS and feels very betrayed by what she found out about their beliefs after she joined. I apologize to Anna if I am remembering incorrectly. )

 

[paul_c]

Peary,
A church doesn’t offer salvation, which one such as yourself should know if you have read the Bible. Christ offers salvation. The term “apostasy” has to do with certain leaders who took authority unto themselves–not with their followers, who do not know better than to follow what they have been taught. John wrote of the church going into the wilderness, and the leaders taking authority unto themselves is why that happened.

Parker,
Perhaps you can describe for us this apostasy, given what you said above. Which leaders tool authority unto themselves? Yout know there were at least 14 apostles in the Catholic Church (the original 11 + Matthias, Barnabas and Paul). all of them annointed bishops who were responsible for holding and teaching the Catholic Faith to the nations. They were led by Peter and his successors, but all knew the faith . So in your theology, all of these men had to apostasize. Where is the evidence of this, other than Joseph Smith’s opinions.

And Joseph Smith named his own Apostles , including Brigham Young, who were expected to pass on his teachings. Yet, we have had in the course of one page in this thread, examples of opinions of both Brigham Young and orson Pratt, that are not considered valid on issues of Faith and morals.

So you speak of apostasy from Catholics, but can’t identify a single case of it, other than to declare generically that there was one where unnamed leaders took on unstated authority. Yet you ignore highlighly documented cases in the LDS church where your leaders made statements about issues of faith and morals that you have had to consider invalid. Who makes these decisions? The current President?