LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[Anna_Scott]

The Protestants that refer to Catholicism as a cult (and use other derogatory terms). I’m speaking in general terms.

Surely you’ve seen the recent threads here about the “Baptistboard” forum for one recent example. I’m saying that it seems as if some have the mentality that it’s true when Protestants and Catholics (some) say that Mormonism is a cult, but when some of those same Protestants also refer to Catholicism as a cult, it can’t be true.

Theosis,

I am the one who was torn to pieces on BaptistBoard.com for saying that Catholics are Christians and for defending some of your beliefs. They banned me, claiming I was a “Catholic troll.” So, I am not one of those Protestants who is against Catholics.

Very true. My only point is that Javl is trying to use “cult” in a derogatory sense, and be buddy-buddy with Protestants, when some of those same Protestants will put Catholicism in the same category as Mormonism as non-Christian cults.

You are making assumptions about Javl’s motives for using the word “cult.” Though Javl needs no help in defending himself; I will say jumping on Javl is a diversion from the serious issues at stake.

And what’s with your comment about Javl being “buddy-buddy with Protestants.” Is Javl not supposed to have Protestant friends on the forums? I’m Protestant. Am I not supposed to have Catholic friends on the forums?

Theosis, I really have to ask if you realize what you are getting into as you are “pondering LDS.” I hope you will fully investigate the LDS Church and all its history.

Anna

 

[TheosisM]

Theosis,

I am the one who was torn to pieces on BaptistBoard.com for saying that Catholics are Christians and for defending some of your beliefs. They banned me, claiming I was a “Catholic troll.” So, I am not one of those Protestants who is against Catholics.

Again, I was speaking in general terms, not referring to any specific poster here.

You are making assumptions about Javl’s motives for using the word “cult.” Though Javl needs no help in defending himself; I will say jumping on Javl is a diversion from the serious issues at stake.

As others have already mentioned besides myself, it is best not to use the word “cult” in discussions.

And what’s with your comment about Javl being “buddy-buddy with Protestants.” Is Javl not supposed to have Protestant friends on the forums? I’m Protestant. Am I not supposed to have Catholic friends on the forums?

Hello, I already mentioned that I was speaking in general terms, not about anyone’s activities on this forum. As I said, one is quick to say that [some] Protestants and Catholics agree that Mormonism is a cult, yet some of those same Protestants will turn around and say that Catholicism is a cult. You are making my statements into something they are not.

 

[TheosisM]

There isn’t a lot of difference between the Branch Davidians and the LDS church c.1840.

Yes, I can see some similarities there.

 

[momor]

All that matters to me in understanding LDS doctine is that they believe:

God the Father was once created human like us and was presumably sinful as well.

Jesus Christ was not divine or the second person of the Trinity

That men can become like God the Father after death, creating still future gods.

Cult or not, that’s enough heresy and blasphemy to have me running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

Don’t forget about Mormonism’s link to Masonry. You can see the same hierarchical structure and secrecy in both.

 

[Javl]

Anna:

Thank you for your comments. It seems that the truth always hits a nerve, whether or not it is spoken in Christian Charity as an explanation. In my many years of studying the various “religious” groups I have found that there is always an adverse reaction when that “religion” is classified as a cult. I am quite used to the derogatory statements made in my direction, as if I have never heard or confronted them before. That old saw always hits home: “the truth always hurts”.

Again, Anna, thank you and God Bless you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Annie_B]

All that matters to me in understanding LDS doctine is that they believe:

God the Father was once created human like us and was presumably sinful as well.

Jesus Christ was not divine or the second person of the Trinity

That men can become like God the Father after death, creating still future gods.

Cult or not, that’s enough heresy and blasphemy to have me running in the opposite direction as fast as I can.

Don’t forget about Mormonism’s link to Masonry. You can see the same hierarchical structure and secrecy in both.

May I ask where it is you got the idea that God was (is) presumably sinful?
May I ask why you say we believe that Jesus was (is) not divine? I am guessing that this may have something to do with your actual definition of “divine”, but correct me if I am wrong in guessing so.

The men becoming gods and the connection to Masonry I will not ask about, as it is sure to turn into an argument and that is not why I am here

Annie

 

[momor]

May I ask where it is you got the idea that God was (is) presumably sinful?
May I ask why you say we believe that Jesus was (is) not divine? I am guessing that this may have something to do with your actual definition of “divine”, but correct me if I am wrong in guessing so.

The men becoming gods and the connection to Masonry I will not ask about, as it is sure to turn into an argument and that is not why I am here

Annie

Please see Anna Scott’s posting (#36) from the Journal of Discourse

My definition of Divine is all 3 persons of the Holy Trinity. If you don’t believe that Jesus is also God, then you have a different interpretation of Divine than I do.

 

[Javl]

Hello, I already mentioned that I was speaking in general terms, not about anyone’s activities on this forum. As I said, one is quick to say that [some] Protestants and Catholics agree that Mormonism is a cult, yet some of those same Protestants will turn around and say that Catholicism is a cult. You are making my statements into something they are not.

I’ve yet to come across a Protestant who says that Catholicism is a cult. The only “Protestants” that will say so are cultists and NOT a true Protestant. Also, in my many years of study and involvement with cults and the like, I’ve yet to come across a Catholic who does not use that term in reference to Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc.

I ( we ) do not attack the personal beliefs of the individual, but question the theology, doctrines, and motives of these “religions”. I would say that they all came into being because of someone’s greed for money, power, egotism, etc. ( yes, that occurs in mainline Christianity resulting in the establishment of another “Church”, and so on.

There was only one church founded by Jesus Christ and it has lasted for these past 2000 years still teaching the same truths without variation, even though many under the influence of Satan have tried to destroy it from within.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[TheosisM]

I’ve yet to come across a Protestant who says that Catholicism is a cult. The only “Protestants” that will say so are cultists and NOT a true Protestant. Also, in my many years of study and involvement with cults and the like, I’ve yet to come across a Catholic who does not use that term in reference to Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc.

Illogical. Many of the people that refer to Catholicism as a [non-Christian] cult (whether on Baptist Board, CARM, Walter Martin forums, other forums, blogs, articles, books, etc) are professed Baptists, Evangelicals, Calvinists, etc. But now they’re “cultists”…odd [use of the word cult] . And I think I’d know, seeing as how I defend Catholicism on the “Roman Catholicism” board of CARM.

I’ve already said what I believe, and others in this thread have echoed my view on the use of “cult” (especially if one is really here to have dialogue and debate, not polemics). Move on.

 

[TheosisM]

Please see Anna Scott’s posting (#36) from the Journal of Discourse

My definition of Divine is all 3 persons of the Holy Trinity. If you don’t believe that Jesus is also God, then you have a different interpretation of Divine than I do.

This is true, Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity. However, they do believe that Jesus is divine.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Please see Anna Scott’s posting (#36) from the Journal of Discourse

My definition of Divine is all 3 persons of the Holy Trinity. If you don’t believe that Jesus is also God, then you have a different interpretation of Divine than I do.

This is true, Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity. However, they do believe that Jesus is divine.

mormons believe Jesus is a god.

 

[TheosisM]

mormons believe Jesus is a god.

Yes (hence the statement “Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity”). My statement was in response to the statement “Jesus Christ was not divine”. Mormons do believe He is divine. The Trinity is a separate issue (which is more how He is divine: substance/homoousios, etc).

 

[momor]

Yes (hence the statement “Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity”). My statement was in response to the statement “Jesus Christ was not divine”. Mormons do believe He is divine. The Trinity is a separate issue (which is more how He is divine: substance/homoousios, etc).

But if Jesus is a god separate from God the Father then that is polytheism and definitely not part of Christianity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes (hence the statement “Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity”). My statement was in response to the statement “Jesus Christ was not divine”. Mormons do believe He is divine. The Trinity is a separate issue (which is more how He is divine: substance/homoousios, etc).

LDS believe Jesus did not become perfect until after the resurrection. A divine being that is not perfect? It can be said mormons believe the Son was not divine, but became so, and they believe he is now.

 

[TheosisM]

LDS believe Jesus did not become perfect until after the resurrection. A divine being that is not perfect? It can be said mormons believe the Son was not divine, but became so, and they believe he is now.

Interesting, Mormons believe that the Son became divine. Are there any supporting documents for this supposed belief that Jesus was not divine at some point (just curious, because I’ve never come across this)?

This seems odd since Mormons believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.

 

[TheosisM]

But if Jesus is a god separate from God the Father then that is polytheism and definitely not part of Christianity.

Right, the LDS church is not part of traditional Christianity (or what some Mormons refer to as “creedal Christianity”). I’m sure the Mormons here would agree.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Interesting, Mormons believe that the Son became divine. Are there any supporting documents for this supposed belief that Jesus was not divine at some point (just curious, because I’ve never come across this)?

This seems odd since Mormons believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.

I asked a mormon about this once, not very long ago. I can’t get it figured out myself. They say Jesus became perfected. That they will become perfected just like He was. My understanding is that this is synonymous with exalted, but I can’t find any teachings/documentation at lds.org that explain what in the world they’re talking about. So, I can only go by what I was taught, which was, Jesus became exalted after the resurrection.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna:

Thank you for your comments. It seems that the truth always hits a nerve, whether or not it is spoken in Christian Charity as an explanation. In my many years of studying the various “religious” groups I have found that there is always an adverse reaction when that “religion” is classified as a cult. I am quite used to the derogatory statements made in my direction, as if I have never heard or confronted them before. That old saw always hits home: “the truth always hurts”.

Again, Anna, thank you and God Bless you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed to him that the creeds of all the (Christian) “sects” are an “abomination” in the sight of God. Catholics and Protestants fall into this category of “abomination.”

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

Quotes from the Book of Mormon:

"And he said unto me:** Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil**; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" **(1 Nephi 14:10).
**
“And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . .” (1 Nephi. 14:17).

The Book of Mormon clearly states there are only two churches: one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. If you are not part of the Mormon church, the only category left, is the church of the devil.

So, the creeds of Catholics and Protestants are an “abomination,” and we all belong to the “church of the Devil,” which the Book of Mormon calls “the mother of abominations” and “the whore of all the earth.”

But, everyone is upset because the word “cult” was used in reference to Mormonism. This makes absolutely no sense.
Anna

If you do not have access to the Book of Mormon, here is the link: scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14

 

[Anna_Scott]

This is true, Mormons do not believe in the traditional Trinity. However, they do believe that Jesus is divine.

Mormons worship a different Christ:

LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, June 4, 1998:
“The traditional Christ of who they speak in not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak had been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.”(Church News, June, 20 1998, p. 7.)

LDS Church’s 147th General Conference, General Authority Bernard P. Brockbank:
“…It is true that many of the Christian churches worship A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST than is worshiped by the Mormons…” (“The Ensign,” May 1977, p. 26.)

Anna

 

[TheosisM]

Mormons worship a different Christ:

LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, June 4, 1998:
“The traditional Christ of who they speak in not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak had been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.”(Church News, June, 20 1998, p. 7.)

LDS Church’s 147th General Conference, General Authority Bernard P. Brockbank:
“…It is true that many of the Christian churches worship A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST than is worshiped by the Mormons…” (“The Ensign,” May 1977, p. 26.)

Anna

Exactly. Mormons don’t believe in the traditional Trinity, and they don’t believe in the traditional Jesus of traditional Christianity.