LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

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So if a 95 year old man married an 85 year old woman for companionship, and both of them were past the age of “consummation,” their marriage in the Catholic Church is not valid? :confused:
You didn’t answer the question regarding a Mormon marriage sealed in heaven. Is it a requirement?
 
zerinus, two questions here. It occured to me while reading this post that either Joseph Smith or the Lord spoke in Old English (thy and thou and so forth). Does this not strike you as strange?
No! 🙂
Second question is that Joseph Smith said “which temple shall be reared in this generation”. You have given your explanation as to what happened but would this not prove that this statement was a fallacy? Was this not a prophecy? It just seems a little convenient to say that it has been deferred to a future time. Thanks.
Also No. In the Ten Commandments it says, “Thou shalt not kill”. Is that a prophecy that they won’t kill?
 
So if a 95 year old man married an 85 year old woman for companionship, and both of them were past the age of “consummation,” their marriage in the Catholic Church is not valid? :confused:
I’m not aware that anyone is necessarliy beyond the age of “consummation”. Procreation, while being the ultimate purpose of the sexual act is not its only purpose.
 
No! 🙂

🤷 If you want to just ignore me I guess that’s your call. I thought it was a valid question.

Also No. In the Ten Commandments it says, “Thou shalt not kill”. Is that a prophecy that they won’t kill?
When you begin a statement with “Verily, this is the word of the Lord” I’d say that more than implies that he was claiming a prophecy. Do I have to say it? A commandment is not a prophecy. The fact that you completely avoid the question is telling. Sorry to have bothered you. I actually don’t blame you. I would not want to have to defend it.
 
If you answered my question, you wouldn’t need to ask your question.
Nice attempt to dodge the question but I’m not buying it. A simple “yes, consummation is required” or “no, consummation is not required” to seal a marriage in heaven will suffice.
 
Nice attempt to dodge the question but I’m not buying it. A simple “yes, consummation is required” or “no, consummation is not required” to seal a marriage in heaven will suffice.
OK then, how about ‘no.’

…and if you answer the question asked of you, you would understand why. Y’see, while sex is an important part of marriage,it isn’t all that marriage is about–and we don’t “do” annulments.

If a couple gets an annulment civilly, the Temple sealing is cancelled just as it would be if they had divorced.
 
SteveVH,

There is an added thought for your question about the following:

D&C 84:

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
The attempt by the saints to build the city at that time failed, because they were not yet ready for it, and persecution followed, and the Lord permitted their enemies to prevent them from building it. But the promise still remain in force, and was deferred until a future time when the saints would be better prepared to build it; and the prophecies will be fulfilled in due course when the Lord decides in His wisdom when the time is the right for it to be fulfilled.
The added thought (besides this quote by Zerinus above) is that you identify the clauses of the “prophecy and commandment”, (as you might wish to call it either way). Clause #1 is that the New Jerusalem shall be “built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place” which was at the place where they were gathered and where they began the work of building the New Jerusalem and gathering the saints (you see, the gathering of the saints begins the work of building the New Jerusalem, since the New Jerusalem is the fulfillment of Zion and Zion begins to be built wherever the saints gather in a place of holiness and peace with a temple in their midst).

Clause #2 is the phrase “which temple shall be built in this generation”, and that temple was built indeed, in Nauvoo, IL, where the saints received their endowment with power from on High before their journey west to escape those who had robbed them. God had commanded them to build a temple, and they did despite the opposition of the forces of destruction in the world–the forces which always oppose the building of Zion wherever the saints go to with their might and build it. They find a way, and they did find a way, and indeed the New Jerusalem will be built during the latter days in America, the land of a latter-day Zion (among others in the world). But it is a long process. Not a problem–an opportunity, day by day and year by year. The building up of places of Zion in the world fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah.👍
 
I’m not aware that anyone is necessarliy beyond the age of “consummation”. Procreation, while being the ultimate purpose of the sexual act is not its only purpose.
So you are telling me that every 95 year old man and 85 year old woman who might get married are able to “consummate” their marriage?
 
(Bump)
Originally Posted by ParkerD
Jay53,
I agree with your point that everyone who “acts as the Scribes did” can “expect a similar punishment.” This is an important point.
A similar point is clearly to be made about the Sadducees and their rejection of Christ and rejection of the resurrection–hence anyone who acts as they acted can “expect a similar punishment” or in other words, a similar status in their own resurrection.
I’m not understanding your thinking here. Catholics clearly believe in Christ and in the Resurrection, yet you have intimated that we will have a different “status of resurrection” because we don’t believe in “celestial marriages”. :confused:
 
Y’see, while sex is an important part of marriage,it isn’t all that marriage is about
Same here.
–and we don’t “do” annulments.
Neither do we, actually. Only civil authorities offer “annulments”. What you mistakenly refer to a Catholic “annulment” is really a “decree of nullity”. After the person gets a civil divorce and applies to have his/her marriage investigated by the Marriage Tribunal so as to see if a decree of nullity can be granted. The Tribunal looks at the couple’s vows–at the moment they made them–to see if there was some impediment (“free will”–even age may compromise this, blood relation, etc.) in them that we didn’t know about. (Yes, this is noted in the Bible by Paul–not the words but the concepts behind them.)

We don’t “do” divorce (just as Jesus said).
 
(Bump)

I’m not understanding your thinking here. Catholics clearly believe in Christ and in the Resurrection, yet you have intimated that we will have a different “status of resurrection” because we don’t believe in “celestial marriages”. :confused:
Hi, Jay53,
The Luke passage about “neither marry, nor are given in marriage” is Luke 20:35. As I have noted, “worthiness” does not qualify a person to receive the resurrection, but does qualify what kind of resurrection a person will receive. Luke 20:35 was rendered from the Greek (Textus Receptus) with several choices made by a translator. One choice is the use of the word “world” or “kingdom” or “place” after the word “that”. Another choice is the insertion of a comma (not in the Greek) and the insertion of the word “the” in front of the word “resurrection”. It makes more sense from the Greek to be true to the meaning conveyed in Greek by saying, “worthy to be given that place and resurrection from death, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of resurrection.” Note the contrast between “children of God” (which Christ says those dead Sadducees are when they are resurrected). Why are they “children of God” in their resurrection but yet were described earlier as “the children of this world”? (v. 34).

1–Because Christ is the Father of their resurrection, and without Him they would not have a resurrection.

2–Because they will find out in the spirit world that there is a resurrection unlike what they had believed on earth, and they will finally repent of their unbelief and accept Christ as their Redeemer. But because they limited their understanding while in mortality, they will have a “place and resurrection from death” that includes no marriages for them.

Now, by going back to Christ’s teaching about marriage and divorce, it would be well to re-read His words in Matthew 19:6: “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” God is an eternal Being with an eternal view of humankind. The Mosaic law allowed man to put marriage–which God had “from the beginning” (v. 8) made an eternal covenant by doing the “joining” that is the joint covenant of marriage itself when done by God–into a lesser contract status, a contract status that allowed for divorce “because of the hardness of [their] hearts.” (v. 8) “…but from the beginning it was not so.”

Now, re-read the words of Christ to the apostles in Matthew 18:18: “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This means that they are acting with the authority of God and that what they do with that authority is just as if God were doing it. Add to that the teaching, “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” and it leads to an eternal view of the marriage covenant–not a “for time only” view, not a “for this life only” view, but an eternal view.

Again, this is why the Sadducees came up with their hypothetical example in the first place. They knew of the belief in the endurance of marriage after the resurrection. They were scoffing at both concepts–the idea of a resurrection, and the idea of marriage in the resurrection. They were trying to justify themselves by using the Mosaic law to do it, which they were insisting could not possibly have inferred that there was going to be a resurrection, else why (they thought) would there have been the kind of situation they were hypothetically describing, and yet it be lawful under the Mosaic law and still confirm a belief in resurrection and in marriage in the resurrection?

Laying that groundwork above, I can answer your question by observing that the kind of resurrection that one receives will be based on what laws and commandments they have chosen to live by with all the heart and soul, and by whether they seek out the authority that really does “bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” and desire that their personal marriage covenant with their spouse be placed within that kind of authority from God delegated to the apostles to “bind in heaven.”

At the same time, bear in mind that one of Christ’s purposes was to preserve the complete freedom of choice of humankind even as He taught eternal principles. If one re-reads 1 Corinthians 2 one can discern that not every principle of the gospel was intended to be gleaned and understood through man’s wisdom. Spiritual understanding and wisdom require gaining the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So this entire set of conditions for differences in the resurrection, although taught by Christ, is not going to jump out at you because He would not do that–He does not force belief nor would He jeopardize the sacredness of the eternal marriage covenant by allowing it to be “copied” by people who would take pure principles and make them less than pure. This is why He taught in a way that “seeing, they see not.” Those things that are spiritually discerned as one is spiritually ready to discern them, will be seen whereas those unready will “see them not.”

Further, the idea of having lasting life-long marriages on earth is also good (as long as it is not forced, and the principle of a “lesser law”–as exemplified by the Mosaic law–is also allowed since marriage in and of itself is a good thing). So Christ accomplished several purposes by knowing all things and allowing that what was going to be done with His teachings, be done. His teachings on marriage allowed for different levels of application, depending on the spiritual preparedness of the receivers of the teachings.

Have a great day, Jay53.
 
Now, by going back to Christ’s teaching about marriage and divorce, it would be well to re-read His words in Matthew 19:6: “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” God is an eternal Being with an eternal view of humankind. The Mosaic law allowed man to put marriage–which God had “from the beginning” (v. 8) made an eternal covenant by doing the “joining” that is the joint covenant of marriage itself when done by God–into a lesser contract status, a contract status that allowed for divorce “because of the hardness of [their] hearts.” (v. 8) “…but from the beginning it was not so.”
Why not just assume the simpler thing instead of assuming that another type of marriage was created? God created marriage–male and female that they may help each other and did not create divorce. But because of the sinful nature of man (the hardness of hearts) Moses, Gods representative, simply “allowed” for divorce in certain occassions. That would explain why Jesus would say that divorce wasn’t intended from the beginning yet not have Him setting up two different types of marriage.
They (the Sadduccees) knew of the belief in the endurance of marriage after the resurrection.
See no proof of this in the Scriptures.
They (the Sadduccees) were scoffing at both concepts–the idea of a resurrection, and the idea of marriage in the resurrection. They were trying to justify themselves by using the Mosaic law to do it, which they were insisting could not possibly have inferred that there was going to be a resurrection, else why (they thought) would there have been the kind of situation they were hypothetically describing, and yet it be lawful under the Mosaic law and still confirm a belief in resurrection and in marriage in the resurrection?
Don’t see it. They were asking a question (because they didn’t believe in the resurrection and this seemed to be a logical question if marriage was supposed to be eternal.)
 
Why not just assume the simpler thing instead of assuming that another type of marriage was created? God created marriage–male and female that they may help each other and did not create divorce. But because of the sinful nature of man (the hardness of hearts) Moses, Gods representative, simply “allowed” for divorce in certain occassions. That would explain why Jesus would say that divorce wasn’t intended from the beginning yet not have Him setting up two different types of marriage.

See no proof of this in the Scriptures.

Don’t see it. They were asking a question (because they didn’t believe in the resurrection and this seemed to be a logical question if marriage was supposed to be eternal.)
AMDGtoo,
I am not sure if I have understood that your last sentence was you doing the thinking or you quoting my earlier statements. The inference “if marriage was supposed to be eternal” is what the Sadducees inferred by their hypothetical example and the question that followed from that example. This means that they were aware of such a teaching among certain of the Jews, including Christ’s close followers.

Again, the clearest and simplest example is what I keep referring to–the teaching of Christ about marriage by referring back to the marriage of Adam and Eve who were married by God Himself, with no condition “until death do you part.” The solemn covenant of marriage was that they become “one”, knowing that their situation in life and in eternity was incomplete without the other.

(Adam was even willing to risk his life to keep the commandment God had given to him to stay with Eve and be a support to her, and she to him. He partook after she had partaken. Yet they would be rescued from the death that followed, and it would be an eternal rescue with eternal ramifications for them and for their marriage, which marriage God had given to them as one of the greatest gifts–indeed, the greatest next to the atonement and the Holy Spirit’s guidance–given to humankind. But it is a gift that may be voluntarily received, or not.)
 
So if a 95 year old man married an 85 year old woman for companionship, and both of them were past the age of “consummation,” their marriage in the Catholic Church is not valid? :confused:
I thought this question was rhetorical but I can see from follow-up posts that it is not.

Genesis 2:24 KJV
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5 KJV
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Ephesisans 5:31 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Mark 10:7 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

What part of “become one flesh” don’t you understand? Perhaps all of these scripture verses are more transcription errors?
 
I thought this question was rhetorical but I can see from follow-up posts that it is not.

Genesis 2:24 KJV
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5 KJV
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Ephesisans 5:31 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Mark 10:7 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

What part of “become one flesh” don’t you understand? Perhaps all of these scripture verses are more transcription errors?
Momor,
Though I’m not Zerinus, as a participant here I guess it’s OK if I answer your question with another question.

Do you sincerely think that “they twain shall be one flesh”, given the symbolism of Eve having been formed from Adam’s rib, means “have a sexual relationship in marriage”, and that that particular and single meaning is all that is meant by “become one flesh”?
 
Momor,
Though I’m not Zerinus, as a participant here I guess it’s OK if I answer your question with another question.

Do you sincerely think that “they twain shall be one flesh”, given the symbolism of Eve having been formed from Adam’s rib, means “have a sexual relationship in marriage”, and that that particular and single meaning is all that is meant by “become one flesh”?
#1 Yup. That’s the physical meaning. It’s the only way to “be fruitful and multiply”.
#2 Nope. It has a spiritual meaning too.
 
I thought this question was rhetorical but I can see from follow-up posts that it is not.

Genesis 2:24 KJV
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:5 KJV
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Ephesisans 5:31 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Mark 10:7 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

What part of “become one flesh” don’t you understand? Perhaps all of these scripture verses are more transcription errors?
When you have answered my question I will answer yours.
 
When you have answered my question I will answer yours.
First of all your assumptions about physical abilities is a generalization and not true of everyone that age. And given that women live longer it’s more likely to be a 95 yr old woman and an 85 yr old man! If they are Catholic and wish to have a sexual relationship they will seek a sacramental marriage. No one is going to monitor their activity to see if it happens or not. It’s the intent of the couple that matters.

If the aforementioned couple don’t intend to consummate they don’t have any need to have a sacramental marriage. They can live together for companionship and the Church would not consider them to be living in sin. If they want to be married for legal reasons they can have a civil marriage (although if there are any kids there will be a big fight over the estates!).

Your turn…
 
First of all your assumptions about physical abilities is a generalization and not true of everyone that age. And given that women live longer it’s more likely to be a 95 yr old woman and an 85 yr old man! If they are Catholic and wish to have a sexual relationship they will seek a sacramental marriage. No one is going to monitor their activity to see if it happens or not. It’s the intent of the couple that matters.

If the aforementioned couple don’t intend to consummate they don’t have any need to have a sacramental marriage. They can live together for companionship and the Church would not consider them to be living in sin. If they want to be married for legal reasons they can have a civil marriage (although if there are any kids there will be a big fight over the estates!).

Your turn…
I am not really sure how to take that answer. Are you suggesting that an elderly couple who are past the age of “consummation” want to get married “sacramentally” in the in the Catholic Church, are not allowed or able to do so? :confused:
 
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