Leading German Rabbi Condemns Pope's Good Friday Prayer

[jimmy]

I doubt you know what your talking about. Have you ever read the Talmud in its entirety? Do you even know the main divisions of the Talmud? DId you know that it would take the average person seven years to read the talmud!!! Thats not even including trying to interpret it. MY college library has all the tracates that are party of the Talmud. There is over 70 Tracates. Each tracate consists of more than 100 pages!

I wouldn’t be surprised if bpbasil does know what he is talking about. Many Christian theologians read old Jewish texts.

You don’t need to read the whole Talmud to know what it says about Christ.

 

[Magicsilence]

I apologize for anything in the Talmud (that I’m sure no one here has read) that you take as blasphemy against Jesus.

Homolka: Jesus put forward his arguments within the context of an internal Jewish dialogue. What the Church turned this into was something completely different. It made Jesus the rabbi into a deity. On top of that, it claims that the crucifixion of this rabbi is relevant to my personal salvation. Such teachings would have been news to Jesus.

But…

Never mind.

 

[saylo]

Does the Talmud come from God?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

That rabbi is a complete idiot. He says, quite predictably, that the Church had a role in the Holocaust during the Third Reich and he says that the Church tried to “make a Catholic out of a Jew” by canonizing St. Edith Stein. SHE WAS CATHOLIC! She was ethnically Jewish, but she was Catholic. The Church doesn’t canonize people that are not Catholic. I can’t believe people can be so ignorant…arguing when you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about only makes you look stupid. And this rabbi has succeeded in making himself look exceedingly stupid.

In Christ,
Rand

The Catholic church did not CAUSE the Nazi Holocaust, but Europe has a very long history of antisemitism rooted in Church teaching. I think maybe that is what he meant when he implied the Church somehow “caused” the Holocaust.

European Christianity has a long history of teaching contempt for Jews…have you ever seen the medieval cathedrals that have a statue representing Sinagoga (the synagogue), blindfolded with a broken staff? And Ecclesia (the church) stands strong and triumphant?

PERSONALLY it does not offend me as a Jew if the Traditional Catholic church says prayers for the conversion of my people. I know such prayers are not answered, because the God of Israel wants all Jews to STAY JEWISH and be Torah observant. That would not happen if they apostasized to other religions.

The way I see it, the only way a Jew could be offended by such prayers is if he secretly BELIEVED they COULD be answered.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

When the Jews apologize for the blasphemies against Jesus and His Holy Mother in he Talmud, i’ll listen to their complaints about Christian liturgy.

I am a student of the Talmud, and own a complete set. I study it often. I have never seen anything in there about Jesus or Mary.

Are you aware that Yeshua/Yehoshua (“Jesus”) was a VERY common name amongst Jews? There are some Yeshua’s/Yehoshua’s mentioned in the Talmud, but they are from other time periods than when Jesus is supposed to have lived.

The only people I have ever seen claim the Talmud is anti-Christian are neo-Nazis…I can always tell their misquotes of the Talmud by the atrocious misspellings of the Talmudic folios!

I know this is a hard thing for Christians to accept, but Jesus IS/WAS JUST NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO JUDAISM that we would waste time and paper to discuss him.

 

[mlchance]

Then why can’t I just forget Catholicism and become Jewish?

For reasons analogous to why I can’t just forget about my wife and go get me a new girlfriend.

I know this is a hard thing for Christians to accept, but Jesus IS/WAS JUST NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO JUDAISM that we would waste time and paper to discuss him.

You frequent discussion of Jesus seems to argue somewhat against at least some of your assertion.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

For reasons analogous to why I can’t just forget about my wife and go get me a new girlfriend.

You frequent discussion of Jesus seems to argue somewhat against at least some of your assertion.



– Mark L. Chance.

I have done ecumenical work in Jewish and Christian circles for several decades; my interest stems largely from that.

 

[Valke2]

I’d disagree and say that Jesus is in fact mentioned in the Talmud. There are errors in the time period and other errors, either because the rabbis were not that interested in Jesus and got some details wrong, or they purposely changed some facts in order to avoid persecution.

But even if I am right, that’s about 30 lines of text in a 2,711 page document filled with rabbis discussing and contradicting each other to arrive at a consensus on a multitude of issues.

 

[Jimdandy]

We all worship the same God-it is very unbecoming of us to bicker and snipe at each other’s beliefs-discussion is good, circular argumentation gets us nowhere.

God is in control; live your life knowing that you will face Him and His questioning on how you have treated your brothers.

Can you imagine how much we could accomplish if we worked together to solve world poverty and help treat diseases of the world?

What good does it do to say" I KNOW THE TRUTH "if your ‘Truth’ is just empty,angry words?

Many people’s Faith is closely intertwined with their identity-It can only be changed from within and that change is a directive from God.

Please, be respectful and Christ-like. We are all children of the same God.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

We all worship the same God-it is very unbecoming of us to bicker and snipe at each other’s beliefs-discussion is good, circular argumentation gets us nowhere.

God is in control; live your life knowing that you will face Him and His questioning on how you have treated your brothers.

Can you imagine how much we could accomplish if we worked together to solve world poverty and help treat diseases of the world?

What good does it do to say" I KNOW THE TRUTH "if your ‘Truth’ is just empty,angry words?

Many people’s Faith is closely intertwined with their identity-It can only be changed from within and that change is a directive from God.

Please, be respectful and Christ-like. We are all children of the same God.

What an awesome post, I agree for the most part. In fact my mother used to say that too: “we all worship the same God, just in differing ways”.

 

[rlg94086]

I am a student of the Talmud, and own a complete set. I study it often. I have never seen anything in there about Jesus or Mary.

Are you aware that Yeshua/Yehoshua (“Jesus”) was a VERY common name amongst Jews? There are some Yeshua’s/Yehoshua’s mentioned in the Talmud, but they are from other time periods than when Jesus is supposed to have lived.

The only people I have ever seen claim the Talmud is anti-Christian are neo-Nazis…I can always tell their misquotes of the Talmud by the atrocious misspellings of the Talmudic folios!

I know this is a hard thing for Christians to accept, but Jesus IS/WAS JUST NOT THAT IMPORTANT TO JUDAISM that we would waste time and paper to discuss him.

I don’t have a hard time accpeting that…what I don’t understand is why they waste time and paper objecting to a Good Friday prayer by our Pope.

There is nothing offensive about Christians praying that non-Christians come to believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. A couple of my favorite talk-show hosts make that very point, every time something stupid like this comes up in the news. (Michael Medved - Orthodox Jew and Dennis Prager - also Jewish, but I don’t think he is Orthodox)

 

[CarolsDaughter]

I don’t have a hard time accpeting that…what I don’t understand is why they waste time and paper objecting to a Good Friday prayer by our Pope.

There is nothing offensive about Christians praying that non-Christians come to believe that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. A couple of my favorite talk-show hosts make that very point, every time something stupid like this comes up in the news. (Michael Medved - Orthodox Jew and Dennis Prager - also Jewish, but I don’t think he is Orthodox)

I agree with you totally, it irritates me no end when I hear of (usually non-religious) Jews whining that they want Christmas out of the public sphere, etc

The only Jews that are offended are those who don’t even know their OWN religion, or are atheists. Usually what informs their anti-Christmas views is their LIBERALISM, and not Judaism, because most of them haven’t set foot in a synagogue since childhood.

I think you’d also like Rabbi Daniel Lapin, he is a very conservative Orthodox rabbis who is active in conservative political circles. For more info see towardtradition.org

Jews who are SECURE in their own faith don’t care about someone praying for their conversion…I find usually promises to pray for someone’s conversion are said out of hostility anyway.

 

[rlg94086]

I agree with you totally, it irritates me no end when I hear of (usually non-religious) Jews whining that they want Christmas out of the public sphere, etc

The only Jews that are offended are those who don’t even know their OWN religion, or are atheists. Usually what informs their anti-Christmas views is their LIBERALISM, and not Judaism, because most of them haven’t set foot in a synagogue since childhood.

I think you’d also like Rabbi Daniel Lapin, he is a very conservative Orthodox rabbis who is active in conservative political circles. For more info see towardtradition.org

Jews who are SECURE in their own faith don’t care about someone praying for their conversion…I find usually promises to pray for someone’s conversion are said out of hostility anyway.

Rabbi Lapin is fantastic…I’ve heard him on Medved’s show more than once. I don’t agree with your last statement though. I guess praying for someone’s conversion *could *be said out of hostility, but I wouldn’t say that it is usual. Ask yourself, why would a Christian pray for someone’s conversion if we didn’t love them and want them to join us in heaven?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

Rabbi Lapin is fantastic…I’ve heard him on Medved’s show more than once. I don’t agree with your last statement though. I guess praying for someone’s conversion *could *be said out of hostility, but I wouldn’t say that it is usual. Ask yourself, why would a Christian pray for someone’s conversion if we didn’t love them and want them to join us in heaven?

Why would they? Out of a sense of Christian triumphalism.

But also, I’m saying that based on the tone of some who have told me, “I’m praying for your conversion”.

“Conversion” is a very dirty word to most Jews…and telling us to read stories of Jews who apostasized doesn’t help, because we have a long, sad history of Jews who apostasized and turned on the Jewish community, resulting in the deaths of many Jews.

Here is one such case, and Pablo Christiani is another, if you’d like to look him up too:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Donin

This excellent book of long standing can also give you a fuller history, and explain just why efforts at conversion are so insulting and terrifying to Jews:

amazon.com/Anguish-Jews-Twenty-Three-Antisemitism-Christianity/dp/0809127024

“The Anguish of the Jews” by Father Edward Flannery (Roman Catholic priest)

 

[saylo]

I’d disagree and say that Jesus is in fact mentioned in the Talmud. There are errors in the time period and other errors, either because the rabbis were not that interested in Jesus and got some details wrong, or they purposely changed some facts in order to avoid persecution.

If the rabbis were not interested in Jesus why is he even mentioned?

But even if I am right, that’s about 30 lines of text in a 2,711 page document filled with rabbis discussing and contradicting each other to arrive at a consensus on a multitude of issues.

If they (rabbis) purposely changed some facts in order to avoid persecution how could we know they did not expunge many pages referring to Him? Also, that "…30 lines of text in a 2,711-page document could very well have been 3000 lines of text and 5,000 pages.

How can you possibly know how much text and how many pages? The sky’s the limit! It’s like saying: “Pregnant? No, I’m NOT pregnant…only a little bit pregnant!”

 

[Koopa]

I can’t understand why the Jewish community would be offended by this. People of different faiths pray for conversions of each other. That’s just the way it works. It’s like this rabbi is angry at us for thinking that we know the truth. Well, we do think we know the truth. And so do the Jews. If the Jews prayed for Catholics in some Jewish service (sorry for my ignorance of what that is called), I certainly don’t see why we should be offended.

P.S. I don’t mean to say that all Jews share this rabbi’s view.

 

[Koopa]

Also, I think that the rabbi’s statements about the Church’s involvement in the Holocaust are rather absurd.

“The Church teaches that the Jews are wrong and that they are right, so that must have aided in the cause of the Holocaust!”

The Church taught that people should NOT commit genocide, too, but obviously these people didn’t listen to these teachings. Blame the Holocaust on ignorance and cruelty, not the Church.

I’m pretty sure that the Jewish faith teaches that they are right and Christians are wrong, does that mean that I should be worried about a Holocaust of Christians in a predominantly Jewish area? No.

 

[saylo]

On Easter Sunday when Jesus walked out of the tomb the soldier/guards were paralyzed with fear on seeing Him and of the great light that preceded Him.

They ran to the Temple to report to Caiphas what they saw. Caiphas, after hearing this said that he would pay them “hush money” if they would say, “We fell asleep and while we slept His friends came and stole His Body.”

Sleeping while on guard was a serious infraction so Caiphas assured them that he would smooth it over with Pontius Pilate.

THEREIN IS THE 2,000 YEAR-OLD LIE!

If they fell asleep then how do they know if His Body was stolen and how would they know who stole It? THEY WERE ASLEEP! (So they said).

Jesus’ coming is written in the Old Testament by the prophets and even the signs that were to announce His arrival were foretold

The Talmud is not a book of the prophets and do not come from God but only from the minds of secular men.

 

[Jimdandy]

While you are entitled to your opinion,(even if wrong) your ignorance is baffling-since when are/were Rabbis secular???

oh my, now I’m falling toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Valke2]

If they (rabbis) purposely changed some facts in order to avoid persecution how could we know they did not expunge many pages referring to Him? Also, that "…30 lines of text in a 2,711-page document could very well have been 3000 lines of text and 5,000 pages.

How can you possibly know how much text and how many pages? The sky’s the limit! It’s like saying: “Pregnant? No, I’m NOT pregnant…only a little bit pregnant!”

That’s easy enough to answer. Because later rabbis put the quotations back in. Since you haven’t studied Talmud, I understand your confusion. There is no 3000 lines of missing text. Don’t worry about it.