Leading German Rabbi Condemns Pope's Good Friday Prayer

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sagefrakrobatik
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
saylo said:
The Talmud is not a book of the prophets and do not come from God but only from the minds of secular men.
Click to expand...
Certainly the quotes regarding Jesus (if they referred to Jesus) were not quotes from prophets and no Jew would disagree with this. No one is saying that anything in the Talmud that refers to Jesus is God’s word.
 
CarolsDaughter said:
Why would they? Out of a sense of Christian triumphalism.

But also, I’m saying that based on the tone of some who have told me, “I’m praying for your conversion”.
Click to expand...
Or maybe it is just because they believe that Christianity is true. Either Christianity is true or it is false. If it is true then other religions which claim that Jesus was meaningless or that he was just a good teacher are false. If Judaism is true then Christianity is false. Consequently there is nothing wrong with praying for the conversion of those who do not believe. It is not triumphalism, it is simply a hope that all will have the truth that you have.

Those who pray for the conversion of others are praying that God might guide men to the truth. This is no different than what they pray for for themselves though. A Christian prays that God will guide him into the truth, to discern what is true from what is erroneous. Similarly he prays that God will guide others into the truth.
 
I’ve often wondered why some Christians seem to get so terribly excited/offended when somebody says that they find being prayed for (or whatever) irritating. Pretty soon they’re scuttling off to some ‘Jews Eat Babies’ site to ‘find’ something to say about the naughty, naughty Jews . . . .

Personally, I’ve always found the ‘being prayed for’ business more amusing - in a sort of lightly amusing way - than threatening but I live in a world where Christianity is in serious decline and of growing irrelevance so I suppose I can afford to.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’ve often wondered why some Christians seem to get so terribly excited/offended when somebody says that they find being prayed for (or whatever) irritating. Pretty soon they’re scuttling off to some ‘Jews Eat Babies’ site to ‘find’ something to say about the naughty, naughty Jews . . . .

Personally, I’ve always found the ‘being prayed for’ business more amusing - in a sort of lightly amusing way - than threatening but I live in a world where Christianity is in serious decline and of growing irrelevance so I suppose I can afford to.
Click to expand...
We get offended because people, who are of a different faith, are trying to dictate to us how we should pray.
 
LRThunder said:
We get offended because people, who are of a different faith, are trying to dictate to us how we should pray.
Click to expand...
Indeed, on the other hand, something like pointing out things like “to us it appears to show a complete lack of taste” or “for heaven’s sake haven’t you something at least vaguely less pointless to pray for?” isn’t something to get terribly excited about is it?

We know that there’s a core Christian belief that everybody must be absorbed into it but people are drifting away (mainly to indifference) in their millions every year which seems, to me at least, something that might be a bit more of a priority.
 
Valke2 said:
That’s easy enough to answer. Because later rabbis put the quotations back in. Since you haven’t studied Talmud, I understand your confusion. There is no 3000 lines of missing text. Don’t worry about it.
Click to expand...
No, I won’t worry about the Talmud; of that I am certain.
 
^^^ OK so are you saying it was Secular Rabbis who compiled the TALMUD:confused:
 
So many errors, so little time…argh…let’s go one at a time here.
When the Jews apologize for the blasphemies against Jesus and His Holy Mother in he Talmud, i’ll listen to their complaints about Christian liturgy.
Click to expand...
Jesus is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM mentioned in the Talmud. Stop reading antisemetic websites. ONCE AGAIN, the Talmud DOES NOT mention Jesus or Christians…PERIOD…prove me wrong, or retract the ridiculous statement.
Yes, you all should look up what the Talmud has to say about Jesus.
I’m not even going to repeat it here.
Click to expand...
That was sarcasm, right? If not, see the above.
Then why can’t I just forget Catholicism and become Jewish?
Click to expand...
No, you silly person, and you know better. If someone KNOWS the truth, and then leaves the Church there is guilt involved.
There is no salvation outside the Church.
Click to expand...
You are correct, but apparently do not understand what the Church teaches this means. Fr. Feeney was incorrect. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church as it addresses this:
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Click to expand...
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Click to expand...
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Click to expand...
Actually the Church teaches that baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary. The Church does not believe there are multiple paths to salvation. It professes one path and that is through the Church. The sacraments are absolutely necessary. Have you heard of the doctrine “Outside the Church there is no salvation”? That is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
Re: Baptism, here is what the Church teaches.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Click to expand...
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
Click to expand...
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity
Click to expand...
No more babies in Limbo either.

Yes, Jesus is the only path to Salvation, but the Church also makes clear that Christ can save those who never heard his name while here on earth…read the CCC.
Does the Talmud come from God?
Click to expand...
An Orthodox Jew might well ask that question about the entire New Testament. The answer is, that for Orthodox Jews, the Talmud is, indeed, part of the deposit of faith.
 
CarolsDaughter said:
The Catholic church did not CAUSE the Nazi Holocaust, but Europe has a very long history of antisemitism rooted in Church teaching. I think maybe that is what he meant when he implied the Church somehow “caused” the Holocaust.
Click to expand...
The Church did not, in any way, cause the Holocaust. And the rabbi did not say that because of a history of European anti-semitism the Holocaust happened. He specifically said that the Church had a role in the Third Reich. That is simply untrue, utterly false. He also said that the Church tried to “make a Catholic out of a Jew” by canonizing St. Edith Stein. St. Edith Stein was a Carmelite nun who had, at an earlier point in her life, converted to Catholicism. The Church is not in the habit of canonizing non-Catholics. What the rabbi said was extremely insulting.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Yerusalyim said:
So many errors, so little time…argh…let’s go one at a time here.

Jesus is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM mentioned in the Talmud. Stop reading antisemetic websites. ONCE AGAIN, the Talmud DOES NOT mention Jesus or Christians…PERIOD…prove me wrong, or retract the ridiculous statement.

That was sarcasm, right? If not, see the above.

No, you silly person, and you know better. If someone KNOWS the truth, and then leaves the Church there is guilt involved.

You are correct, but apparently do not understand what the Church teaches this means. Fr. Feeney was incorrect. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church as it addresses this:

Re: Baptism, here is what the Church teaches.

No more babies in Limbo either.

Yes, Jesus is the only path to Salvation, but the Church also makes clear that Christ can save those who never heard his name while here on earth…read the CCC.

An Orthodox Jew might well ask that question about the entire New Testament. The answer is, that for Orthodox Jews, the Talmud is, indeed, part of the deposit of faith.
Click to expand...
Very well stated Yerusalyim! The only thing I would have said slightly different is the comment about “babies in Limbo.” What the Church teaches regarding the non-Baptized, and btw one of the things that attracted me to the Church, is that they are left to the mercy of God. Iow, there may or may not be a Limbo - we don’t know for certain what happens to the unbaptized…God does.

I happen to believe in a merciful God, so I sincerely doubt that unbaptized babies would be denied the beatific vision.

Regarding the teaching of salvation only through Jesus Christ, this is true, even though the Church teaches that non-Christians can be saved. This is not a paradox. All it means is that their salvation is still through Jesus Christ even though they “through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church.”

I do pray that non-Christians will come to understand the fullness of Truth, which is present in the Catholic Church. However, that does not mean that I “condemn” those who don’t to hell. It is out of my hands. I will proclaim what Christ tells us is necessary for salvation through the Church, but I can not judge someone’s soul…Jesus commanded me not to.
 
Sagefrakrobatik said:
^^^ OK so are you saying it was Secular Rabbis who compiled the TALMUD:confused:
Click to expand...
A combination of both religious and secular. Some were wedded to secular law and ethics. Others had a kind of warped sense of “specialness.” They saw themselves as a ruling/superior race over the gentile world.
 
saylo said:
A combination of both religious and secular. Some were wedded to secular law and ethics. Others had a kind of warped sense of “specialness.” They saw themselves as a ruling/superior race over the gentile world.
Click to expand...
Wow!

Could you detail the source of your knowledge of the Talmud? It really would be so helpful.
 
Those who are very familiar with the NT and also Kabbalah (esp the Zohar) as well as Talmud, know that there are many quotes from both the Zohar and the Talmud in the NT…Christianized, of course.

One example is Gal. 3:28 when compared with an almost identical passage in Sanhedrin (Talmud.)
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
The Church did not, in any way, cause the Holocaust. And the rabbi did not say that because of a history of European anti-semitism the Holocaust happened. He specifically said that the Church had a role in the Third Reich. That is simply untrue, utterly false. He also said that the Church tried to “make a Catholic out of a Jew” by canonizing St. Edith Stein. St. Edith Stein was a Carmelite nun who had, at an earlier point in her life, converted to Catholicism. The Church is not in the habit of canonizing non-Catholics. What the rabbi said was extremely insulting.

In Christ,
Rand
Click to expand...
Was he referring to the Catholic clergy who helped Nazi war criminals escape over the Brenner Pass?

Because if so, he would have a point. But there were also Catholic clergy who helped RESCUE Jews, such as in Assisi, Italy (see the excellent book, The Assisi Underground by Alexander Ramati for more info.)

I will say that historic church teaching, that the Jews are cast off and abandoned by God for rejecting Jesus, did pave the way for centuries of Christian antisemitism. The cathedrals in Europe for centuies have had a statue of Ecclesia (a woman representing the church, with her staff aloft, standing proud), while Judaism (Sinagoga) is represented by a statue of a woman whose staff is broken and she is blindfolded.
 
CarolsDaughter said:
Those who are very familiar with the NT and also Kabbalah (esp the Zohar) as well as Talmud, know that there are many quotes from both the Zohar and the Talmud in the NT…Christianized, of course.

One example is Gal. 3:28 when compared with an almost identical passage in Sanhedrin (Talmud.)
Click to expand...
Interesting, CarolsDaughter! From this I have 2 questions…
1-Since you said the passage is “almost identical”… how is it written in that Sanhedrin passage?
2-Can you give other examples involving the Zohar or the Talmud or both? I am interesed…
 
Rand_Al_Thor said:
The Church did not, in any way, cause the Holocaust. And the rabbi did not say that because of a history of European anti-semitism the Holocaust happened. He specifically said that the Church had a role in the Third Reich. That is simply untrue, utterly false. He also said that the Church tried to “make a Catholic out of a Jew” by canonizing St. Edith Stein. St. Edith Stein was a Carmelite nun who had, at an earlier point in her life, converted to Catholicism. The Church is not in the habit of canonizing non-Catholics. What the rabbi said was extremely insulting.

In Christ,
Rand
Click to expand...
CarolsDaughter, I think Rand AlThor is referring here to accusations that the pope Pius XII would have been “Hitler’s pope”, which is of course false but believed by a good number of people. I was gladly surprised when I heard about a book written by a Jew, a Rabbi David Dalin, in defense of pope Pius XII. I ordered the book, The Myth Of Hitler’s Pope, and read some of it. According to him and other authors, it was false propaganda that started indeed AFTER Pius XII’s death… Somebody came up with a play, The Deputy, which apparently made Pius XII look like a real bad guy… and then the propaganda about Pius XII’s “silence” was spread, making him look guilty like hell, when in fact he had spoken up much more than all the statesmen of Europe together. The “silence” came after a while, but in order to not make the bad things even worse! By that time his position had been made very well known! And yet, despite the books written in defense of that pope, there are still many people who believe that he was guilty of a culpable silence and that he was Hitler’s pope… What can you do? So, I am grateful that this rabbi won’t mind speaking out in favor of Pius XII, and he’s NOT a Jewish convert to Catholicism!!!👍 ,Rabbi Dalin!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top