Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

[choliks]

All this talk of fear and uncertainty makes me want to link Fr. Z’s take on Pope Francis’ homily (or sermon) for Easter Vigil. Read it HERE.

 

[CB_Catholic]

You are totally correct here, and while I know this is true intellectually, I unfortunately struggle with having faith in it

Thank you for the link

You are welcome. I pray you will be able to trust the Holy Spirit here–and find some peace in the matter.

 

[Lucky7]

Very interesting post, made me have to clarify my own thoughts on this. I completely agree with your positions here in your examples. But for me, these things fall into the catagory of “whats the best strategy to most effectively promote the Catholic faith in the world”. While I personaly agree with you, Im also ok with (for instance) a Pope or Cardinal diverging from what you said here because they believe another “strategy” will work better. For instance, Cardinal Dolan gives communion to Biden with the strategy of “you catch more flies with honey…”. Even though I dont agree with his strategy here, I have to acknowledge he could be right. Same thing with Francis washing womens feet. I THINK its a setting a bad example etc, but since its a subjective I have to acknowledge he may very well be right.

Where I diverge is at things like doctrine, where there is no subjective opinion. Abortion is wrong period. I might disagree with someones strategy for how to best stop abortions, but as long as the doctrine itself remains absolute Id be able to feel ok with it (ok, I might get a little frustrated but you know what I mean).

Unfortunately there seems to be a huge disconnect with the strategy of catching more flies with honey and taking a chance on allowing sacrilege and scandal. I have a hard time seeing it as “just another strategy”. If that means I’m closed-minded, then so be it.

With respect to the other, I can understand it more. And as I said, I’m not completely against these things, but I also think that there needs to be a continuous, strong and clear message that, despite attending other religious ceremonies or including others in ours, the Catholic Church is the One, True Church and the Way to Heaven. It is rarely said at all. Again, if there is an overwhelming amount of people who think any religion is okay then that message is not clear. There are a host of Catholics who think Vatican II changed teaching in that other religions are just as true. So, although Church doctrine has not changed, the perception has made it seem that it has changed. Perhpas that suggests that the current strategy…needs some change?

So sometimes, although we may not be talking about actual doctrine that has changed, I think there’s a fine line between actual change and perception that it has changed. I would argue that perhaps certain strategies are exactly what are helping you feel like doctrine could/will change.

 

[graciew]

Unfortunately there seems to be a huge disconnect with the strategy of catching more flies with honey and taking a chance on allowing sacrilege and scandal. I have a hard time seeing it as “just another strategy”. If that means I’m closed-minded, then so be it.

With respect to the other, I can understand it more. And as I said, I’m not completely against these things, but I also think that there needs to be a continuous, strong and clear message that, despite attending other religious ceremonies or including others in ours, the Catholic Church is the One, True Church and the Way to Heaven. It is rarely said at all. Again, if there is an overwhelming amount of people who think any religion is okay then that message is not clear. There are a host of Catholics who think Vatican II changed teaching in that other religions are just as true. So, although Church doctrine has not changed, the perception has made it seem that it has changed. Perhpas that suggests that the current strategy…needs some change?

So sometimes, although we may not be talking about actual doctrine that has changed, I think there’s a fine line between actual change and perception that it has changed. I would argue that perhaps certain strategies are exactly what are helping you feel like doctrine could/will change.

I have a question,in what way is living the Gospel a strategy? Cause all in all it is about living the Gospel,and I think we would agree,wouldn´t we?

 

[Brendan_64]

I recognize that the Pope doesn’t like them, but in reality it isn’t about him.

You talk about these shoes as if Pope Francis is making a dramatic and serious break with Tradition by not wearing them. Out of our last 3 popes only Pope Benedict chose to wear them. John Paul II didn’t wear them either and that was accepted. Why are people sticking the boot into Pope Francis for not wearing a pair of red shoes? I don’t think Pope John Paul II received such criticism over this.

Despite all the symbolism that may go with them, they’re only a pair of leather shoes that at some point in our past someone decided, “Lets introduce a pair of red shoes for the Pope to wear to symbolise the blood of Christian martyrs”.

In the broader scheme of things these shoes are not important. Will any souls be saved or lost as a result of Pope Francis not wearing red shoes? Because in the end that is all that matters.

I really do believe that Pope Francis will make a huge impact of revitalising Christianity on Earth. I doubt that his ability to achieve this will be hindered by his choice of footwear.

 

[Lucky7]

I have a question,in what way is living the Gospel a strategy? Cause all in all it is about living the Gospel,and I think we would agree,wouldn´t we?

I guess you’d have to ask McCall too, but I think his point in using that word is like “the means to an end”. That we should do whatever we need to do to try to bring someone into the fold or back into the fold (into full communion). Personally, I do not think that the ends justifies the means in certain circumstances.

 

[graciew]

I guess you’d have to ask McCall too, but I think his point in using that word is like “the means to an end”. That we should do whatever we need to do to try to bring someone into the fold or back into the fold (into full communion). Personally, I do not think that the ends justifies the means in certain circumstances.

Thanks for answering.
My question comes because this whole idea of a strategy makes noise to me.
The experience of God is personal,how it reflects to others is something beyond us. So this whole idea of planning strategies to bring sb back into the flock,if this is what is menat by strategy,does not sound as something we should be focussing on. Just thinking.Thanks.

 

[tienkiem971]

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[CB_Catholic]

Thanks for answering.
My question comes because this whole idea of a strategy makes noise to me.
The experience of God is personal,how it reflects to others is something beyond us. So this whole idea of planning strategies to bring sb back into the flock,if this is what is menat by strategy,does not sound as something we should be focussing on. Just thinking.Thanks.

Actually, a strategy to bring people into the flock isn’t so strange. That is how the Gospel was spread. St. Paul and the Apostles did not just wander around the land preaching, they planned their journeys to reach as many people as they could in as many places as they could. They deliberately chose places to go and started churches there. Then they taught others to do the same. They carefully chose and trained people to do this. Reading the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of St. Paul, as well as the fact that the Apostles all evangelized different parts of the known world helps clarify this.

We do need a strategy to bring people back. We need to study and p(name removed by moderator)oint those areas where the Church is weakest and re-evangelize them. There are areas in the world where the Church is very strong and active and producing many new priests, vocations, etc. We need to use their abundance to evangelize places where the Church is weakest, perhaps even our own countries. People need educated and trained to bring the Gospel to others–they need to be knowledgeable about Christ, Scripture, the Church and her teachings. We need to appeal to both the mind and the hearts of people, and we need to present the truth. All of this requires planning and careful strategy to be as effective as possible, and actually begins in our own parishes. Of course, the Holy Spirit will be guiding this, we need to pray for His guidance.

So I do not think strategy is so strange a word to use for the New Evangelization, I think it is absolutely necessary to reach as many people as possible. God Bless.

 

[McCall1981]

Maybe “strategy” is not the right the word.

What I was getting at is, we have the Truth as revealed by God, and this is Church doctrine on Faith and Morals etc, that we cannot have any disagreement on. Then we have to take that Truth and “apply” it to the real world in our personal attempt to live like Christ, evangelize other people, etc. We do this in our personal lives on a micro scale, and the Church does this on the macro scale. How to best do this is an area we can disagree (look at all the different charisms out there).

So, for instance, it is an unfortunate fact there are many dissenting Catholics and Catholic politicians who support abortion. We, as the Church are faced with this problem and have to decide on how best to convert these people and change thir minds. One strategy to do this would be to deny them the Eucharist in an attempt to make them see the seriousness of their error and make the teaching clear. Another strategy might be to give them Eucharist, and attempt to convert them through love and forgiveness.

Lucky7, I think you and I are probably in agreement on what we think is the best choice here. But what I TRY to do (admittedly I’m not always successful) is to be mindful that picking the best way to actually apply Church doctrine to the real world is somewhat subjective, so I should try to be patient when others do it differently than I would.

When Pope Francis washed the Muslim woman’s feet the other day, I don’t agree with his choice, because I think it implicitly promotes disregard for liturgical rules. BUT, I have also heard many people say how moving it was, and how non-Catholics are really responding to these kinds of things he’s doing. If other people are responding and maybe converting, I have to admit that maybe his choice here was right. Its a difficult thing, because obviously we can’t quantify how much “good” comes from one choice or another and compare.

My point is that for me, my worry is not the foot washing itself, Pope Francis has different ideas on how to best evangelize, and I should try my best to defer to his (admittedly) greater experience and wisdom. My worry is that the foot washing COULD point to women priests down the road, which would be a major problem. If I somehow knew absolutely for sure that this wasn’t going to happen, I wouldn’t have much problem at all with the foot washing.

 

[shelby_sun]

Maybe “strategy” is not the right the word.

What I was getting at is, we have the Truth as revealed by God, and this is Church doctrine on Faith and Morals etc, that we cannot have any disagreement on. Then we have to take that Truth and “apply” it to the real world in our personal attempt to live like Christ, evangelize other people, etc. We do this in our personal lives on a micro scale, and the Church does this on the macro scale. How to best do this is an area we can disagree (look at all the different charisms out there).

So, for instance, it is an unfortunate fact there are many dissenting Catholics and Catholic politicians who support abortion. We, as the Church are faced with this problem and have to decide on how best to convert these people and change thir minds. One strategy to do this would be to deny them the Eucharist in an attempt to make them see the seriousness of their error and make the teaching clear. Another strategy might be to give them Eucharist, and attempt to convert them through love and forgiveness.

Lucky7, I think you and I are probably in agreement on what we think is the best choice here. But what I TRY to do (admittedly I’m not always successful) is to be mindful that picking the best way to actually apply Church doctrine to the real world is somewhat subjective, so I should try to be patient when others do it differently than I would.

When Pope Francis washed the Muslim woman’s feet the other day, I don’t agree with his choice, because I think it implicitly promotes disregard for liturgical rules. BUT, I have also heard many people say how moving it was, and how non-Catholics are really responding to these kinds of things he’s doing. If other people are responding and maybe converting, I have to admit that maybe his choice here was right. Its a difficult thing, because obviously we can’t quantify how much “good” comes from one choice or another and compare.

My point is that for me, my worry is not the foot washing itself, Pope Francis has different ideas on how to best evangelize, and I should try my best to defer to his (admittedly) greater experience and wisdom. My worry is that the foot washing COULD point to women priests down the road, which would be a major problem. If I somehow knew absolutely for sure that this wasn’t going to happen, I wouldn’t have much problem at all with the foot washing.

I am trying to see how anyone could jump from the Pope washing a woman’s feet to having women priest someday. It is such a big jump and to be honest, a lack of faith, but I am trying to understand.

All we can do is live in the day, this day. Do people really want to continue worrying about or even thinking about it. The US is sending fighter planes to S. Korea, that should be a bigger worry for all of us, seeing as N. Korea is so unstable. Hopefully we can keep some perspective and enjoy what God has given us.

I do have to ask, does anyone think that if Mary had been at the Last Supper, Jesus would not have washed her feet? Just wondering.

 

[McCall1981]

I am trying to see how anyone could jump from the Pope washing a woman’s feet to having women priest someday. It is such a big jump and to be honest, a lack of faith, but I am trying to understand.

All we can do is live in the day, this day. Do people really want to continue worrying about or even thinking about it. The US is sending fighter planes to S. Korea, that should be a bigger worry for all of us, seeing as N. Korea is so unstable. Hopefully we can keep some perspective and enjoy what God has given us.

I do have to ask, does anyone think that if Mary had been at the Last Supper, Jesus would not have washed her feet? Just wondering.

You’re right, it is definitely a lack of faith in some ways, and that’s not something I’m proud of

As to how one makes that jump, I suppose I make that jump in part becasue the media makes that jump and shoves it in my (our) faces. Also, there unfortunately are Priests, religious and laiety out there that make this jump as well (on purpose because it suits their ideology). Perhaps they are just engaging in wishful thinking, I hope so, but the fact they are out there and are vocal lends some “credibility” to my worries (at least in my own mind).

 

[shelby_sun]

You’re right, it is definitely a lack of faith in some ways, and that’s not something I’m proud of

As to how one makes that jump, I suppose I make that jump in part becasue the media makes that jump and shoves it in my (our) faces. Also, there unfortunately are Priests, religious and laiety out there that make this jump as well (on purpose because it suits their ideology). Perhaps they are just engaging in wishful thinking, I hope so, but the fact they are out there and are vocal lends some “credibility” to my worries (at least in my own mind).

My advice would be to stop watching the media. They know nothing about the Jesuits. They think because they have covered the Vatican for so long they know what they are talking about.

Some think the Jesuits are radical, and some probably are, but I have been around them all my life, working in their home for 20 years. These men are not out to overhaul the doctrine of the church, but to serve God with no want of reward or praise for themselves. Their focus is on Jesuit or each other.

 

[jwinch2]

I am trying to see how anyone could jump from the Pope washing a woman’s feet to having women priest someday.

Pretty easy actually. All you have to do is look at the teachings of previous popes, bishops, theologians, etc. on the relationship between the washing of feet during the Holy Thursday Mass and Christ’s call to the priesthood. People who dissent from the teachings of the Church on this area, or those who assent but hold out hope that it may change someday will latch on to things like this in order to give the impression that their positions have legitimacy.

Not to mention that violating the rubrics of the Mass sets an example for others to do the same.

 

[Brendan_64]

When Pope Francis washed the Muslim woman’s feet the other day, I don’t agree with his choice, because I think it implicitly promotes disregard for liturgical rules. BUT, I have also heard many people say how moving it was, and how non-Catholics are really responding to these kinds of things he’s doing. If other people are responding and maybe converting, I have to admit that maybe his choice here was right. Its a difficult thing, because obviously we can’t quantify how much “good” comes from one choice or another and compare.

My point is that for me, my worry is not the foot washing itself, Pope Francis has different ideas on how to best evangelize, and I should try my best to defer to his (admittedly) greater experience and wisdom. My worry is that the foot washing COULD point to women priests down the road, which would be a major problem. If I somehow knew absolutely for sure that this wasn’t going to happen, I wouldn’t have much problem at all with the foot washing.

Foot washing will not lead to women priests. John Paul II didn’t say that he** would not** ordain women priests, he said that he **could not **ordain women priests. If a Pope does not have the power to ordain women priests then that means it cannot happen. It will not happen. Relax.

Pope Francis knows what he’s doing, he’s reaching out to the whole of humanity in order to evangelise and save souls. We need to bring as many people as we can into the Catholic Church in order to save souls. The Pope cannot just concern himself with looking after those of us already within the fold of the Church, he needs to reach beyond this and be a true fisher of men. Look at the reaction so far beyond the Catholic Church to his actions, and he’s only been Pope for a few days. Just think what he could do in terms of evagelisation given ten years as Pope. This man will be one of our great Popes.

 

[shelby_sun]

Pretty easy actually. All you have to do is look at the teachings of previous popes, bishops, theologians, etc. on the relationship between the washing of feet during the Holy Thursday Mass and Christ’s call to the priesthood. People who dissent from the teachings of the Church on this area, or those who assent but hold out hope that it may change someday will latch on to things like this in order to give the impression that their positions have legitimacy.

Not to mention that violating the rubrics of the Mass sets an example for others to do the same.

Has it ever been declared that the rubric is infallible?

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I really do not understand the number of criticisms that I am seeing on these forums and elsewhere. The Holy Father has barely had time to get settled and already people are criticizing him.

I take issue with this for a couple of reasons. The first is that he is the Pope, elected by the College of Cardinals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To see any Catholic, let alone those that claim to be conservative, criticizing him and not giving him the respect he deserves is unbelievable to me.

Secondly, despite the fact that he has barely had time to get settled, he has done some really good things. He has shown people humility, he has shown people compassion, he has shown people that you can hate sin, and still have love for those that have committed the sin.

Please everyone, take a deep breath and allow the Holy Spirit to work through our new Holy Father. I believe that we all could learn a great deal from him. Lastly, remember that the Holy Spirit knows the master plan and we do not. We may not like some things that the Pope is doing, we may not understand them, but we should trust and have faith that all is working for God’s ultimate purpose, for as the Lord Himself promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church and the successors of St. Peter!

 

[po18guy]

My advice would be to stop watching the media.

Precisely! The media is “the world”, and the world is driven by a spirit against the Church. Personally, I have disconnected from the secular media, and am much more at peace because of it.

I cannot view Francis I strictly as an individual, but rather as a part of God’s continuing care of His elect via the Church, the visible Body of Christ. A very simplified example: Pope John Paul II rekindled the flame of the Spirit before Pope Benedict reformed the liturgy. Building on this comes Pope Francis I, who is seeking to change hearts within a rekindled spirit and reformed liturgy.

Perhaps over-simplified, but it is one aspect of a vital continuum.

 

[Brendan_64]

Has it ever been declared that the rubric is infallible?

Indeed. It’s a rubric, it can be over-ruled. In fact for many years (under Pope Benedict) bishops have (almost routinely) been granted permission from Rome to by-pass this part of the rubric and allow the washing of the feet of women in their diocese.

People are acting like Pope Francis has broken some divine law, and are conveniently ignoring the fact that Pope Benedict granted a great many bishops permission to enable their priests to ignore this part of the rubric in their dioceses.

Pope Benedict might not have washed women’s feet himself, but he permitted a great many priests to do so all over the globe. Pope Benedict also gave Holy Communion to non-Catholics, which by any account is far more serious,

Popes are allowed to do such things.

I really cannot see why some people seem to get all hot under the collar when Pope Francis does it. Is it because he’s not wearing red shoes while doing so?

 

[FAB]

I really do not understand the number of criticisms that I am seeing on these forums and elsewhere. The Holy Father has barely had time to get settled and already people are criticizing him.

I take issue with this for a couple of reasons. The first is that he is the Pope, elected by the College of Cardinals under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To see any Catholic, let alone those that claim to be conservative, criticizing him and not giving him the respect he deserves is unbelievable to me.

Secondly, despite the fact that he has barely had time to get settled, he has done some really good things. He has shown people humility, he has shown people compassion, he has shown people that you can hate sin, and still have love for those that have committed the sin.

Please everyone, take a deep breath and allow the Holy Spirit to work through our new Holy Father. I believe that we all could learn a great deal from him. Lastly, remember that the Holy Spirit knows the master plan and we do not. We may not like some things that the Pope is doing, we may not understand them, but we should trust and have faith that all is working for God’s ultimate purpose, for as the Lord Himself promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church and the successors of St. Peter!

Unfortunatly it seems to be a favorite pass time of many. Finding fault somewere with others and the Pope and our bishops are also targets. The part of our canon that states that we are to have obediance is ignored and the section that states that the faithful have a right to critique rules. The much deeper issue are the faithful wanting and protesting that the Holy Mother Church should adapt to them and thier wishes instead of doing as we are called to do, change our ways to conform with the Church. This goes for all fractions of the faithful, just not tradtionalist. They distrust Christ own promise and message that he has sent an advocate, the Holy Spirit to guide us.
So in these complaints they are complaining against God wanting Him to change.