Learning Latin in Holy Mass

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netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Well it seems that some Latin is not better in your opinion than no Latin.

Why isn’t it any great shakes? I’m impressed and I think most of us are.

Some may have studied Latin for many years. Some, like myself and my kids, study Latin in relation to the roots of English, but slapping terms like “schoolboy Latin” and “no great shakes” makes you look like a snoody elitist.
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Well, I’m sorry I came across that way, but the point is, you’re not supposed to be impressed. It is elementary. The current pope and the previous one have both been formidable Latinists, and their native languages are linguistically farther removed from Latin than is English, mainly because of vocabulary. They are probably the last two popes who will ever be able to lay claim to that honor, unless, as I suspect, they elect Schonbrunn of Vienna as Ratzinger’s successor in part because he is also one of the last remaining Latin scholars.
 
Ratzinger is indeed quite competent in Latin. Latin ability can be judged by one’s ability to compose elegant Latin by oneself.

Ratzinger can do that, and has.

John Paul drafted his speeches in Polish and had them translated into other languages. He was no “formidable Latinist”.

Comparison: Leo XIII composed metrical hymns for the liturgy in Latin. Verse composition. Some of those hymns remain in the Novus Ordo Breviary, and are respectable.

Pius XII was able to give extemporaneous addresses in Latin, as well as compose.

The Latin style of many Johannine encyclicals leaves something to be desired.
 
jbuck919 said:
I studied at a Latin school for many years. [Here a paraphrase for the sake of idiom] Now I am helped on a daily basis by a dictionary.
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Not to insult anyone’s translation of what some may perceive to be “schoolboy” Latin, but the above translation is not entirely accurate when viewed from both a grammatical and semantic standpoint.

Below is the particular sentence:

“IN SCHOLA LATINAM MULTIS ANNIS STUDEBAM, NUNC MIHI AUXILIO CUM LIBRIS TRADUCERE QUOTIDIE DAT.”

Here, “LATINAM” is a direct object rather than a modifier of “SCHOLA”. Also, “LIBRIS” actually means here its literal translation of “books” rather than the very loosely-related term “dictionary” … I rather wonder why you didn’t translate “LIBRIS” as “dictionaries” since the plural was obviously indicated. Also, where is the English translation of the infinitive verb “TRADUCERE”?

Anyways, at the risk of sounding like a schoolboy, 😉 here is my English translation of the Latin sentence above:

“I studied Latin for many years in school, now it gives me assistance every day with translating books.”

~~ the phoenix
 
There are so many Latin syntactical errors in that sentence it isn’t even worth trying to translate it.
 
jbuck919 said:
Well, I’m sorry I came across that way, but the point is, you’re not supposed to be impressed. It is elementary. The current pope and the previous one have both been formidable Latinists, and their native languages are linguistically farther removed from Latin than is English, mainly because of vocabulary. They are probably the last two popes who will ever be able to lay claim to that honor, unless, as I suspect, they elect Schonbrunn of Vienna as Ratzinger’s successor in part because he is also one of the last remaining Latin scholars.
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Maybe it’s just me, but I am impressed when someone takes the time to learn another language, no matter what stage they are in.
 
AlexV said:
There are so many Latin syntactical errors in that sentence it isn’t even worth trying to translate it.
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Then just be glad that I only dabble in Latin for fun and my own purposes. Everyone else reads my Latin posts at their own risk. 😉 😛 😃
 
And, for the record, I’m very happy when schoolchildren labor, even imperfectly, to learn basic prayers in Latin.

Jbuck’s remarks are rather snobbish, and I find them amusing, since I possess a doctorate in both Latin and ancient Greek, I have been called on by chanceries and tribunals to translate documents they were too ignorant to translate on their own, I have a very advanced grasp of both Latin and ancient Greek, and yet I am not so much a snob that I mock or turn my nose up at the efforts of young Catholics…or old…to learn the language proper to their Rite.
 
AlexV said:
And, for the record, I’m very happy when schoolchildren labor, even imperfectly, to learn basic prayers in Latin.

Jbuck’s remarks are rather snobbish, and I find them amusing, since I possess a doctorate in both Latin and ancient Greek, I have been called on by chanceries and tribunals to translate documents they were too ignorant to translate on their own, I have a very advanced grasp of both Latin and ancient Greek, and yet I am not so much a snob that I mock or turn my nose up at the efforts of young Catholics…or old…to learn the language proper to their Rite.
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Oh good!
Then say a prayer for me as I try to get this Pater Noster thing down!
I still need a guide for the Gloria and my six year old shows me up every week!
 
AlexV said:
And, for the record, I’m very happy when schoolchildren labor, even imperfectly, to learn basic prayers in Latin.

Jbuck’s remarks are rather snobbish, and I find them amusing, since I possess a doctorate in both Latin and ancient Greek, I have been called on by chanceries and tribunals to translate documents they were too ignorant to translate on their own, I have a very advanced grasp of both Latin and ancient Greek, and yet I am not so much a snob that I mock or turn my nose up at the efforts of young Catholics…or old…to learn the language proper to their Rite.
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I have Primer to Ecclesiastical Latin by Collins that I plan on using through an internet course next year (after I get married), and I also saw this Simplicissimus course on the Latin Mass Society web page just the other day that I thought about looking into as well.

What are your thoughts, and do you have any recommendations for a person with limited time to study and learn Latin?
 
Depends on your goals. If your goal is only to read the Missal and associated liturgical texts, those materials are fine.

Ecclesiastical Latin is eminently simple compared to classical Latin. Which is why in an ideal world seminarians would start from the classical and gain a solid classical education, and then move into the Fathers and, later, Middle Ages.
 
AlexV said:
Depends on your goals. If your goal is only to read the Missal and associated liturgical texts, those materials are fine.

Ecclesiastical Latin is eminently simple compared to classical Latin. Which is why in an ideal world seminarians would start from the classical and gain a solid classical education, and then move into the Fathers and, later, Middle Ages.
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Well, I have two goals; 1) to learn quickly so that I can understand better the Mass without the use of the Missal translation, 2) to have a good understanding of it in general so that I can both read and write in Latin with a decent amount of proficiency.

As I understand it, much is lost in the translation.
 
I rented Wheelock’s Latin Grammar from the library recently to sort of look through it to get a better grasp on Latin - is this a good idea since it seems to deal more with Classical Latin? I already know I’ll probably never be able to speak or compose anything in Latin - my main goal is to have a decent enough understanding that I can say basic prayers and partipate in a Latin Mass.

And this is a horribly stupid question, but how would one pronounce “Ecclesiastical?” I’ve only encountered that word online and am affraid of actually saying it around others for fear I’ll look stupid mispronouncing it. My instincts want to say Eh-Kleese -EE-Ah-Stick-All. Or are the double c’s pronounced like a CH? (Eh-Chleese-ee-ah-stick-al?).
 
Rabbititus said:
I rented Wheelock’s Latin Grammar from the library recently to sort of look through it to get a better grasp on Latin - is this a good idea since it seems to deal more with Classical Latin? I already know I’ll probably never be able to speak or compose anything in Latin - my main goal is to have a decent enough understanding that I can say basic prayers and partipate in a Latin Mass.

And this is a horribly stupid question, but how would one pronounce “Ecclesiastical?” I’ve only encountered that word online and am affraid of actually saying it around others for fear I’ll look stupid mispronouncing it. My instincts want to say Eh-Kleese -EE-Ah-Stick-All. Or are the double c’s pronounced like a CH? (Eh-Chleese-ee-ah-stick-al?).
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“Ecclesiastical” is an English word, so your instinct is right. If you just want to learn the Latin for Mass, just look at a Latin translation of the Mass such as this one.
 
For the record, Mr. Jbuck acknowledges his shortcomings on this thread, and invites the wet noodle. 😉 🙂
 
E.E.N.S said:
I have Primer to Ecclesiastical Latin by Collins that I plan on using through an internet course next year (after I get married), and I also saw this Simplicissimus course on the Latin Mass Society web page just the other day that I thought about looking into as well.
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Will you be married by 14-Mar? You might find some support from these folks: Collins2007 group on the LatinStudy List.
E.E.N.S said:
What are your thoughts, and do you have any recommendations for a person with limited time to study and learn Latin?
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The only scary part of what you propose is the “limited” time. Perhaps your bride would like to learn with you, and you could increase your collective time? 😉

tee
 
I checked it out and then bookmarked it! I learned to bless myself in Latin. It’s time, now, to learn the Lord’s Prayer in Latin.

May God bless the Priests and Parishioners in this wonderful parish!

sneakers
 
I’m not a huge fan of having Mass in Latin, but I’m quietly proud that in spite of making no real efforts to learn it, I can in fact say the Pater, Ave and Gloria and actually understand them.

And thanks to EWTN I’m getting a lot of the Mass prayers learned by osmosis too (to my great shock at Christmas when our priest went on a Latin jag)
 
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