Least persuasive argument used by Catholics?

[LutheranScholar]

This evangelical source, says there are like 40,000 denominations (Gordon Conwell college)

churchrelevance.com/qa-list-of-all-christian-denominations-and-their-beliefs/

I guess I would ask why you redefine denomination?

Surely you would not say that in your own tradition, the ELCA AND THE LCMS are the same and what the LCMS does is binding on the ELCA and vice versa???

Of course not, they are independent ecclesial bodies that disagree on what Lutheran practice is. That is a denomination. Lutheranism is a branch of which there are many denominations.

Granted there is duplication in the 30,000 number because some denominational differences are purely geographical. So let’s cut the number in half for that.

There’s a big difference between being a southern baptist and american baptists. These would not be considered one denomination. In fact they’d be insulted if you told them so.

Here it says that the divisions among Protestants can be roughly relegated to eight broad headings, excluding Anglicanism and including the Restorationist churches. That’s fine by me. Actually, the branches are easier to work with than individual denominations because at least you can get a broad definition on what a certain denomination at least marginally accepts as doctrine than trying to go through the ELCA, the LCMS, the LCMC, the WELS, the Laestadian Lutheran Church, etc…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lutheran_denominations Sure, Primitive Baptists might even decry Southern Baptists as being too liberal, but they do have that common label. United Baptists in Tennessee might think of American Baptists up in Ohio as being too permissive.

 

[LutheranScholar]

None, I think! Look at me - not a fan of Billy Graham (but I greatly respect him), Mother Angelica or the wonderful Catholic apologists!!

I do like Fulton Sheen…does that redeem me? (Wait, Christ already redeemed me…)

LOL, thanks for the fun, everyone!

In Christ,

Rita

LOL, that’s awesome, Rita! Yes, Jesus and His work has redeemed us and that is certainly a cause of rejoicing!

 

[spedteacherita]

Of course not, they are independent ecclesial bodies that disagree on what Lutheran practice is. That is a denomination. Lutheranism is a branch of which there are many denominations.

And…here we go.

GKC

Want to come to church with me? (Sorry, couldn’t resist! )

 

[Jon_S_1]

Here it says that the divisions among Protestants can be roughly relegated to eight broad headings, excluding Anglicanism and including the Restorationist churches. That’s fine by me. Actually, the branches are easier to work with than individual denominations because at least you can get a broad definition on what a certain denomination at least marginally accepts as doctrine than trying to go through the ELCA, the LCMS, the LCMC, the WELS, the Laestadian Lutheran Church, etc…en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lutheran_denominations Sure, Primitive Baptists might even decry Southern Baptists as being too liberal, but they do have that common label. United Baptists in Tennessee might think of American Baptists up in Ohio as being too permissive.

I have no problem with broad descriptions of branches of protestantism.

The problem is it does not explain the difference between why american baptists and southern baptists split, or why the Lutheran church has split. Those reasons are important. And frankly those splits show that the authority in Lutheranism or baptist or any other sect that holds bible alone, is lacking and authority is changed from bible alone to “our interpretation of bible alone” which is giving authority back to “the church” in some way, just an imperfect way since it goes to a denominational body instead of the universal church.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Want to come to church with me? (Sorry, couldn’t resist! )

That right there sums up things quite nicely, though, if you think about it. I think going back and forth like this can be boiled down to that one question. Well done.

 

[Jon_S_1]

That right there sums up things quite nicely, though, if you think about it. I think going back and forth like this can be boiled down to that one question. Well done.

Will you go to church with me?

 

[spedteacherita]

Will you go to church with me?

lol

 

[LutheranScholar]

Will you go to church with me?

Sounds like fun! Why not?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Sounds like fun! Why not?

Should we rephrase the 1 simple question to “Would you like to regularly attend church with me and participate in the fullness of my faith tradition?”

 

[spedteacherita]

Should we rephrase the 1 simple question to “Would you like to regularly attend church with me and participate in the fullness of my faith tradition?”

rut roh

-and we were just beginning to play nice!

 

[LutheranScholar]

rut roh

-and we were just beginning to play nice!

Is this a case of " I’ll show you mine if you show me yours?"

 

[GKC]

See my edited post

Certainly is one way to look at it.

Likely there are others.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Want to come to church with me? (Sorry, couldn’t resist! )

It has been some years since I attended a Lutheran service, and that was ELCA, IIRC.

Attended a RC Mass about 4 months ago.

Otherwise, no problem in attending. Unlikely to receive.

GKC

 

[GKC]

It’s* one *possible method to use to establish denominational differences. There are many others. The point that I was attempting to make is that ultimately all this slides into pedantry. If Indifferently claims an Anglican identity, or if Thorolfr is a Lutheran of the ELCA brand, they are, respectively, Lutheran and Anglican, if one is less liturgical than you or the other is more liberal than I, fair enough. My post does say that the church bodies that you will find listed underneath these divisions vary greatly, " from being very conservative indeed to being extremely liberal." As far as I know, doctrinal divisions are the very heart of the matter, so yes, certainly I’d say that they can legitimately be used to classify various bodies of Protestantism.

And now you only have to get a consensus from folks that your definitions are adequate, and start counting.

Of course, if someone says that the definitions aren’t adequate, that they should be divided on liturgical lines, or doctrinal lines, or that liberal denoms are to be grouped as subsets, and conservatives ones likewise, separately, with or without considering institutional lines…there we go again.

GKC

 

[LutheranScholar]

And now you only have to get a consensus from folks that your definitions are adequate, and start counting.

Of course, if someone says that the definitions aren’t adequate, that they should be divided on liturgical lines, or doctrinal lines, or that liberal denoms are to be grouped as subsets, and conservatives ones likewise, separately, with or without considering institutional lines…there we go again.

GKC

So on goes life. While we are busy counting, recounting and getting a consensus, still people are going to their respective churches, serving the Lord and wishing each other peace. My definitions? Perhaps they’re only adequate for me and I need to be at peace with that. The divisions exist. Always there will be a Baptist who will join a Catholic parish, or a Catholic who will join the Methodists. Perhaps a Reformed person of Dutch heritage will be attracted to the austerity of Amish life and go through their conversion process. Maybe an Armenian Orthodox in Minnesota will join a Lutheran Church after diligent study and prayer. Maybe a Lutheran will be registered in a Quaker membership book after diligent study and prayer. These divisions will always exist and the variety in doctrine will draw the hearts of those attracted to them. Who is to judge the heart of a person other than Christ alone?

 

[Jon_S_1]

So on goes life. While we are busy counting, recounting and getting a consensus, still people are going to their respective churches, serving the Lord and wishing each other peace. My definitions? Perhaps they’re only adequate for me and I need to be at peace with that. The divisions exist. Always there will be a Baptist who will join a Catholic parish, or a Catholic who will join the Methodists. Perhaps a Reformed person of Dutch heritage will be attracted to the austerity of Amish life and go through their conversion process. Maybe an Armenian Orthodox in Minnesota will join a Lutheran Church after diligent study and prayer. Maybe a Lutheran will be registered in a Quaker membership book after diligent study and prayer. These divisions will always exist and the variety in doctrine will draw the hearts of those attracted to them. Who is to judge the heart of a person other than Christ alone?

While I agree with your assessment, I think the real question that people should chew on is; should there be divisions. There were not for 1500 years, but there is now.
Why?
Should there be divisions?
If not, how do we get back to a time when there were none?

Also, what is the root cause of divisions?

 

[LutheranScholar]

While I agree with your assessment, I think the real question that people should chew on is; should there be divisions. There were not for 1500 years, but there is now.
Why?
Should there be divisions?
If not, how do we get back to a time when there were none?

I’m not sure that we* can*, JonS. Some few people, more or less, leaving and joining Catholicism, leaving and joining Lutheranism, leaving and joining Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy, churches cross- pollinating each other in terms of membership can only strengthen the existing divisions. The conservative churches are in growth while some liberal churches are in a serious decline. A fundamental return to the most hardline interpretations of the various doctrines of Christianity can help in keeping Christianity alive, but it will also maintain the divisions inherent therein. When Jesus returns again, I maintain we’ll have that unity so many seek, but until then, we are where we are.
The divisions exist. In the here and now, the divisions exist. The best we can do is trust that God has even these various Gospel preaching churches in mind for mission to His scattered sheep.

 

[GKC]

So on goes life. While we are busy counting, recounting and getting a consensus, still people are going to their respective churches, serving the Lord and wishing each other peace. My definitions? Perhaps they’re only adequate for me and I need to be at peace with that. The divisions exist. Always there will be a Baptist who will join a Catholic parish, or a Catholic who will join the Methodists. Perhaps a Reformed person of Dutch heritage will be attracted to the austerity of Amish life and go through their conversion process. Maybe an Armenian Orthodox in Minnesota will join a Lutheran Church after diligent study and prayer. Maybe a Lutheran will be registered in a Quaker membership book after diligent study and prayer. These divisions will always exist and the variety in doctrine will draw the hearts of those attracted to them. Who is to judge the heart of a person other than Christ alone?

Not me. I can’t even judge how many divisions there actually are.

GKC

 

[LutheranScholar]

Not me. I can’t even judge how many divisions there actually are.

GKC

I leave that to the mathematicians. Multiplication and division were never my strong suits in school. English and history, on the other hand, well, I have something of a tentative grasp on those.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m not sure that we* can*, JonS. Some few people, more or less, leaving and joining Catholicism, leaving and joining Lutheranism, leaving and joining Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy, churches cross- pollinating each other in terms of membership can only strengthen the existing divisions. The conservative churches are in growth while some liberal churches are in a serious decline. A fundamental return to the most hardline interpretations of the various doctrines of Christianity can help in keeping Christianity alive, but it will also maintain the divisions inherent therein. When Jesus returns again, I maintain we’ll have that unity so many seek, but until then, we are where we are.

Well, I enjoy very much hoping and praying for Christian unity. In the Catholic Church we pray for it regularly in the liturgy.

I would challenge people to think of the root cause of divisions.

In my assessment it has to be taking authority over doctrine from the church universal to the church of the individual. Sadly, once a denomination forms the authority over biblical interpretation doesn’t lie with the individual as they thought, but with the denomination. So it is the same exact system as the Catholic Church only it does not have the apostolic roots and the protection of the Holy Spirit.

Christianity was never meant to be divided…Jesus promised us a church that had authority, that we had to listen to, and that would be guided in all truth, so I think that we should examine why it is and not just put up our hands and say it is what it is.