S
- Status
W
Wannano
Guest
I have no idea if it was parents who kept bringing younger and younger children for baptism, or if it was top down.
Peace.
Peace.
S
steve-b
Guest
The Catholic Church has been baptizing infants from the beginning. What the Early Church Believed: Infant Baptism | Catholic Answers
A
adf417
Guest
True and this is the reason for “Tradition” and the use of the early church fathers and their writings. The Didache helps with this conundrum. What the Early Church Believed: Infant Baptism | Catholic Answers
Peace!!!
T
Techno2000
Guest
Nuff said…
C
Crocus
Guest
He is quoting from anti-Catholic sources, a specific book for the purpose, and referenced at a specific anti-Catholic website.
Last edited:
K
knightfall
Guest
I’m curious … how does your theology allow for situations where someone is not able to make their own personal decision? An adult who is mentally retarded, for example, and unable to fully comprehend and express an understanding and therefore unable to make a “personal decision” to accept. Does your theology then withhold baptism from such a person? If you believe that baptism “now saves you”, is it a good thing to withhold baptism for those unable to profess through no fault of their own? Or does your theology state that baptism is unnecessary?
If you believe baptism to be unnecessary, then that’s a different discussion.
If baptism is necessary, is it possible for the faith of the parents to “save” the child? Does the Bible support the idea of the faith of another to save someone? Is that concept there?
Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
I think yes, the concept is there. We can build on that.
God bless and thank you for your respectful dialogue.
W
Wannano
Guest
Thank you for asking. I had kind of got the feeling that anybody with my viewpoint probably isn’t worth talking to!Wannano:
I’m curious … how does your theology allow for situations where someone is not able to make their own personal decision? An adult who is mentally retarded, for example, and unable to fully comprehend and express an understanding and therefore unable to make a “personal decision” to accept. Does your theology then withhold baptism from such a person? If you believe that baptism “now saves you”, is it a good thing to withhold baptism for those unable to profess through no fault of their own? Or does your theology state that baptism is unnecessary?
If you believe baptism to be unnecessary, then that’s a different discussion.
If baptism is necessary, is it possible for the faith of the parents to “save” the child? Does the Bible support the idea of the faith of another to save someone? Is that concept there?
Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
I think yes, the concept is there. We can build on that.
God bless and thank you for your respectful dialogue.
Basically, my theology is centered around the thought that there is no such thing as original sin, at least not that individuals are born with a corrupted soul that needs cleansing because our first parents sinned. We have an inherited propensity to sin and will live and deal with that nature all of our life. So a person who is mentally incapable of making personal decisions in life is as innocent as a normal baby. Baptism would not be withheld from anybody who is capable of asking but would not be administered to someone who is incapable of understanding. Just because we do not believe baptism to be regenerational does not mean we see it as unnecessary. We see it as “necessary” because Christ commanded that people should repent, believe and be baptized. To baptize without personal repentance and belief is not what we feel the Bible teaches. So to say can the faith of others save an individual, my feeling is “no.” The man sick with palsy can be included in “their” faith, that is, he also may have had the faith or even more than his friends but could not physically make his way close to where Christ was. To build a theology on incomplete facts within a recorded happening is opening ourselves to delusion.
Thanks.
Last edited:
K
knightfall
Guest
My apologies to the OP for digressing from the original topic … my original sin, if you’ll excuse the awful pun. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle
I accept I may not sway you in your thinking, and that’s ok. Could I ask you to at least consider that from the perspective of someone who believes in the concept of original sin as I’ve described it above, baptism takes on a whole different level of importance?
God bless.
Then we part ways in terms of our beliefs at this point. To be clear though, we (Catholics) do not define original sin as a personal sin committed by each person; rather it is that everyone is born deprived of a relationship with Him … a relationship that needs restoring.
CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle
I wonder, would that mean there are thousands, millions of people for whom Jesus did not have to die? All those across the ages who, in your theology, are innocent?
I don’t disagree, perhaps his faith could be included with his friends, and yet Matthew specifically includes their collective faith as the catalyst for him being saved. I don’t think you can dismiss this so easily.
I agree. Which is why I also quoted Paul. And why I also personally looked at the weight of evidence from the Church Fathers and the consistent teaching of the Church over the last millennia or two.
I accept I may not sway you in your thinking, and that’s ok. Could I ask you to at least consider that from the perspective of someone who believes in the concept of original sin as I’ve described it above, baptism takes on a whole different level of importance?
God bless.
W
Wannano
Guest
Last edited:
T
Techno2000
Guest
Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, and it has powerful and long-lasting effects. It changes the spiritual character of a person forever, and the mark of transformation is so permanent that it is indelible; it can never be erased. What follows is a concise list of nine of the most important effects and benefits of the sacrament of baptism.
The gateway sacrament. Baptism is the first of the sacraments. It is the beginning and the foundation of the Christian life of faith, and it provides access to the other sacraments.
Sacramental grace. The grace of baptism is a rebirth in Christ, opens a channel of blessing from God to the believer, grants a share of God’s divine life, delivers spiritual energy and power, provides nourishment and enables growth in virtue and holiness.
The gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to a person through baptism. The Holy Spirit is the ongoing indwelling presence of God, which makes the person a temple of the Holy Spirit and assures the constant companionship of God for the entire duration of the journey of life. The Holy Spirit offers inspiration, enlightenment and guidance, as well as the courage, strength and motivation to live according to God’s ways.
A child of God. Baptism makes a person an adopted son or daughter of God. Baptism consecrates a person to God. God owns the baptized person, and the person belongs to God. With this realization there is an ever-growing deep longing to know, love, obey and serve God.
Church membership. Baptism grants admission into the body of Christ, the Church, the army of light, a spiritual family in which the other members become one’s brothers and sisters in Christ. It establishes a bond of fellowship with the community of believers and full partnership with the communion of saints of the living. The pilgrimage to God is not to be walked alone, but with the help and companionship of other disciples.
Spiritual status. The baptized person is elevated as priest, prophet and king: a person who prays alone and worships with the Church, praying both for one’s self and on behalf of others; lives a good and holy life and calls others to greater holiness; and enjoys royal status before God, and who honors God as supreme, submits to God’s authority and obeys God’s law and will.
Forgiveness. Baptism is a spiritual cleansing. All sins, both original sin and personal sin, are washed away and forgiven, and purified. The person is in the state of grace. Liberation from sin gives the freedom and fosters the desire to conform one’s life to Jesus and his gospel.
Apostolic zeal. Baptism makes a person a laborer in Christ’s vineyard and a minister of the Church, one who proclaims the gospel to others in deed and word; gives strong and bold witness; assists in liturgical roles; teaches and shares the faith; serves one’s neighbors, particularly the poor and disadvantaged; is a good steward of time, talent and treasure; seeks, speaks and defends the truth; works for justice and peace; and upholds the common good.
The gateway sacrament. Baptism is the first of the sacraments. It is the beginning and the foundation of the Christian life of faith, and it provides access to the other sacraments.
Sacramental grace. The grace of baptism is a rebirth in Christ, opens a channel of blessing from God to the believer, grants a share of God’s divine life, delivers spiritual energy and power, provides nourishment and enables growth in virtue and holiness.
The gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes to a person through baptism. The Holy Spirit is the ongoing indwelling presence of God, which makes the person a temple of the Holy Spirit and assures the constant companionship of God for the entire duration of the journey of life. The Holy Spirit offers inspiration, enlightenment and guidance, as well as the courage, strength and motivation to live according to God’s ways.
A child of God. Baptism makes a person an adopted son or daughter of God. Baptism consecrates a person to God. God owns the baptized person, and the person belongs to God. With this realization there is an ever-growing deep longing to know, love, obey and serve God.
Church membership. Baptism grants admission into the body of Christ, the Church, the army of light, a spiritual family in which the other members become one’s brothers and sisters in Christ. It establishes a bond of fellowship with the community of believers and full partnership with the communion of saints of the living. The pilgrimage to God is not to be walked alone, but with the help and companionship of other disciples.
Spiritual status. The baptized person is elevated as priest, prophet and king: a person who prays alone and worships with the Church, praying both for one’s self and on behalf of others; lives a good and holy life and calls others to greater holiness; and enjoys royal status before God, and who honors God as supreme, submits to God’s authority and obeys God’s law and will.
Forgiveness. Baptism is a spiritual cleansing. All sins, both original sin and personal sin, are washed away and forgiven, and purified. The person is in the state of grace. Liberation from sin gives the freedom and fosters the desire to conform one’s life to Jesus and his gospel.
Apostolic zeal. Baptism makes a person a laborer in Christ’s vineyard and a minister of the Church, one who proclaims the gospel to others in deed and word; gives strong and bold witness; assists in liturgical roles; teaches and shares the faith; serves one’s neighbors, particularly the poor and disadvantaged; is a good steward of time, talent and treasure; seeks, speaks and defends the truth; works for justice and peace; and upholds the common good.
Last edited:
K
knightfall
Guest
I actually think it’s the other way around; that the understanding of original sin precedes the understanding for the need for baptism. But let’s not quibble.
Perhaps you’re right. What I meant to say was we inherit a broken relationship with God. We don’t have the original holiness of Adam and Eve. The relationship between God and man needed to be restored.
I agree that He would have willingly and lovingly died for me if I were the only person on earth. However, in your theology, if I were mentally unable to understand and accept Him, then Jesus would not HAVE to die for me because I would already be innocent.
Your point about Mary is well taken, yet Catholics will readily agree that Mary too needed a Saviour. She needed saving just like everyone else, and she says so in her Magnificat. In her case, however, because she was the sacred vessel who carried our Lord, God saw it fitting that she should be saved in advance. So Mary is no argument against the understanding of original sin.
Please do pardon me if I am not able to respond very frequently; I caught a few minutes on the train to respond now. I’ll leave it to the more learned folk here to continue the discussion. Thank you for your conversation. God bless.
M
Magnanimity
Guest
I sympathize with you deeply on all these intellectual/heartfelt reservations about eternal damnation in the light of a good God who freely creates us all. I got really into this issue a while back and read from both Catholic and Orthodox sources on Hell. You should know though (which you probably already do) that there is no unified view within either camp regarding Hell. IOW, it is emphatically not the case that the Orthodox view on Hell is one of universal reconciliation and the Catholic view is predetermined damnation. The reality is that within Catholicism and Orthodoxy there is a wide degree of variation among many of the brightest minds within each camp on the issue of Hell.
So, on the Orthodox side, you can point to DB Hart and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware as representing a universal reconciliation viewpoint. But, it’s not the case that all Orthodox scholars (or even a majority) agree with them. So too, one can point to a Von Balthasar and Bishop Robert Barron as representative of hope of universal reconciliation of the entire human race, speaking from within Catholic orthodoxy. And yet, no one believes that that is “the Catholic viewpoint” (see CCC 1033-37).
What’s the point of all this? It’s just to illustrate that at this moment, there is no unified Catholic (or Orthodox) perspective on Hell. (I could also point out that there has never been a unified perspective from the history of the church either–the teachings of St. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen and St Maximus the Confessor would be opposed to the teachings of Sts Augustine, Chrysostom and Thomas Aquinas.) Theologians and saints have truly been all over the theological map on this issue. It would be a mistake to think that you’d be leaving the eternal damnation teaching of the CC for the universal reconciliation teaching of the EO. Again, there is no unity here. Plenty of Orthodox believe in eternal damnation. Plenty of Catholics reject it. And everything in between…
When I was leaving Evangelical Christianity behind in the early 2000’s, I too had to make the choice between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. It’s not an easy choice. But since I already believed back then that God loves all humans and that holiness can be cultivated within either camp, it was for me, in some sense, an arbitrary choice. You should definitely be wherever holiness can be maximally fostered for you–in a way, that is the function of any church–to assist the children of God in increasing in holiness. Personally, it took me a while to discover a contemplative tradition within Catholicism, but I found it from some Trappists (Merton and Keating). It is there to be found, but I agree with you that it should be much easier to discover serious spiritual paths within Catholicism than it seems to be.
I wish you the best on your journey! Peace be with you.
W
Wannano
Guest
It would have been less confusing if the Catholic Church would have been more properly called the Baptist Church!
W
Wannano
Guest
This is a well thought through document . If baptism is the whole basis of the Christian life and the writers of the New Testament understood it that way one wonders why they did not make that fact more explicit.
A
adf417
Guest
it most likely would have had some of the reformers not believed in infant baptism.Peace!!!
- Status