Leave or stay: Religious Decisions

[Lenten_ashes]

His view on baptism didnt seem mainstream protestant so i figured it was CoC.

 

[Pattylt]

I think he must have changed it? I thought it originally just said Christian. Oh well…either he’ll be back, become a sock puppet or just disappear into the mists of time…

 

[Techno2000]

You think baptism is only for entering the kingdom, which is untrue. Baptism is for the remission of our sins and also to be part of Christ’s death and resurrection(Romans 6).

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

 

[adf417]

It is not the same though for infant baptism. If someone was totally ignorant of the Bible and read it for the first time without the influence of others, I wonder what Scripture there is that would leave that person with the conclusion that infant baptism is even an item presented in the Scripture.

Yes it is the same - all implicit references - see Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, and 1 Cor. 1:16 if you assume infants are included in “the whole household” or “family”.

If you are looking for explicit references then i too ask about your explicit reference for the Trinity. You cant have it both ways.

Peace!!!

 

[Techno2000]

The scriptures are written by and come from the Church…don’t you think they may understand them a bit after 2000 yrs of using them?

Yeah…they figured out all this stuff a long time ago, but I guess some people didn’t get the memo.

 

[steve-b]

All of you say this, however none of you can justify the act of infant baptism. It is not found in Scriptures,

IN SHORT

Jewish male babies, were circumcised on the 8th day [Lev 12:3]. This brought them into the covenant. In the NT, Baptism replaces circumcision Col. 2:11–12.

Re: sin in babies

babies are not guilty of actual sin, but as we all suffer from the loss of grace, due to not inheriting grace lost by our original parents, for their own original sin. Baptism restores grace that was lost.

CatholicsErr:

“Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”(John 3:5) . “Water” here is a clear reference to baptism.

now you see why we baptize as soon as possible after birth.

CatholicsErr:

You think baptism is only for entering the kingdom, which is untrue. Baptism is for the remission of our sins and also to be part of Christ’s death and resurrection(Romans 6). Without hearing, believing and repenting, is not the act of infant baptism

Circumcision is only a type and shadow of what it points to in the NT sacrament of fulfillment, baptism.

CatholicsErr:

I think the initial impulse to baptize infants was to imitate the Jews and have a ritual that would keep children in the church as they grew up.

in scripture , whole “households” (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), = everyone children and infants as well. While age isn’t specifically mentioned—nor is exclusion, therefore, infants, are included in “households”.

CatholicsErr:

Christ founded only one church, and that is the kingdom I belong too.

Yes, Jesus established one Church, 2000 yrs ago.

The book of Acts 9:31 names the Church

HERE​

Acts 9:31 ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translated:

ἐκκλησία,= ekklésia = church ,
καθ’, = kata = according to ,
ὅλης, = holos = whole / all / universal ,
τῆς, = ho = the ,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

AND​

According to history, your particular sect (Church of Christ) is a recent American invention.

 

[steve-b]

adf417:

CatholicsErr:

All of you say this, however none of you can justify the act of infant baptism. It is not found in Scriptures, therefore you try to skip around it by saying Bible is insufficient.

Neither is Jesus being the second person of the Trinity and yet you have no problem with professing that. Why the double standard? And again, why are not all non-Catholics on the same page as you are @CatholicsErr? Why are you and the early reformers at odds on these issues? Seems like your battle begins elsewhere, not with Catholics.

Peace!!!

As I understand it the word “trinity” describes a situation where three components make a whole singular product. I suppose it is true that the word "trinity " as a term for the Godhead is not found in the Bible. However, the concept is present in many Scriptures. Basic is that the first verse of Genesis states “in the beginning God…”. God existed before He made the world. Scripture says He sent His Son to earth, Emmanuel meaning God with us. Jesus said He and the Father are one. Jesus also promised the human race the coming of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, who takes up residence in the hearts of men. The concept of the Trinity is found in Scripture.

Re: Concept

So are all the doctrines of the Catholic Church

Wannano:

It is not the same though for infant baptism. I wonder what Scripture there is that would leave that person with the conclusion that infant baptism is even an item presented in the Scripture.

When whole “households” is mentioned in scripture, there is no age limit mentioned for qualification or disqualification. Therefore, whole households, (Acts 16:33; 1 Cor. 1:16), = everyone , children and infants as well.

 

[Wannano]

I have not done any study on what the term “whole household” might have entailed back then. Did the man of the household make all decisions for everyone under his roof? What about servants that may have been employed there? What if a child or wife did not want to be a Christian and were baptized? If they were baptized as an adult against their own personal belief or desire, did they automatically become Christian because the man of the house decided it was what he wanted? I have lots of questions as you can see. If you can answer each one, that would be great.

Also you mention that lost grace is restored to a baby that is baptized. How would you describe that grace and what difference does it make in the life of a baptized infant versus an unbaptized infant? As a child grows, what is missing in his/her life if they were not baptized before they reach an age where they understand for themselves, make a personal decision to follow Christ and are adult baptized?

 

[steve-b]

I have not done any study on what the term “whole household” might have entailed back then. Did the man of the household make all decisions for everyone under his roof? If you can answer each one, that would be great.

Re: Acts 16:33

From the Greek NT
“He and all his family were baptized”

ἅπαντες= all , each and everyone,
ἐβαπτίσθη = Baptize

emphasis mine,

From the CCC

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

For a greater explanation, click on each link discussing Original sin from the CCC
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=original+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Wannano:

Also you mention that lost grace is restored to a baby that is baptized. How would you describe that grace and what difference does it make in the life of a baptized infant versus an unbaptized infant? As a child grows, what is missing in his/her life if they were not baptized before they reach an age where they understand for themselves, make a personal decision to follow Christ and are adult baptized?

Re: lost grace and restoration of grace

Like any inheritance, one can’t pass onto their family what they themselves lost, and can’t regain. Adam and Eve lost the original grace they were given at their creation. Therefore couldn’t pass that grace onto us.

From the CCC Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1999 and sanctifying grace through baptism

For further reading on sanctifying grace http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.co...ufs=0&q=sanctifying+grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[Wannano]

What about Acts 16:31 and 32?

I can see I asked too many questions!

 

[steve-b]

What about Acts 16:31 and 32?

I can see I asked too many questions!

Acts 16:31-32 “…you and your household…” ---------> then comes v 33 “…He and all his family (household)were baptized”.

 

[Wannano]

My Bible says verse 31 " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ , and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Verse 32 " and they (Paul and Silas) spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. It seems that personal belief derived from teaching resulted in baptism as it should be.

 

[steve-b]

My Bible says verse 31 " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ , and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Verse 32 " and they (Paul and Silas) spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. It seems that personal belief derived from teaching resulted in baptism as it should be.

When it comes to the children and infants in the household, who are too young to make such a confirmation, the Adult in the household, makes the statement, and then trains and educates the children as they become capable of understanding. As v 33 states, Baptism is NOT limited to age. Each and everyone (in the Greek) was baptized

 

[Wannano]

Which could also indicate that all in that household were of the age to confirm their own belief.

 

[steve-b]

Which could also indicate that all in that household were of the age to confirm their own belief.

What part of ἅπαντες= all , each and everyone, limits or disqualifies anyone in the household?

 

[Wannano]

Unless I don’t understand something I would say “nothing” since they all were old enough to make a personal decision.

 

[steve-b]

Unless I don’t understand something I would say "nothing" since they all were old enough to make a personal decision.

You just disqualified nothing.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Unless I don’t understand something I would say "nothing" since they all were old enough to make a personal decision.

You just disqualified nothing.

I am not interested in playing games. The truth of the matter is I do not know if there was any infants in that household anymore than you know for certainty that there were.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Wannano:

Unless I don’t understand something I would say "nothing" since they all were old enough to make a personal decision.

You just disqualified nothing.

I am not interested in playing games. The truth of the matter is I do not know if there was any infants in that household anymore than you know for certainty that there were.

OK, you and I weren’t there. The Catholic Church WAS there.

Acts 9:31 ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς

Translated:

ἐκκλησία,= ekklésia = church ,
καθ’, = kata = according to ,
ὅλης, = holos = whole / all / universal ,
τῆς, = ho = the ,
= the Kataholos Church = the Catholic Church.

SO​

ask yourself then, when did infant baptism become an issue? It came up with Protestantism.

 

[Wannano]

I understand it first became an issue around 300 AD.

I have to take my leave now or I will be wearing suspenders also.