Leavened Bread for Eucharist?

[AFarmer]

Did a quick search and found some conflicting info…
When I was in grade school (a Catholic school, obviously) we baked bread as part of our 1st communion preparation. Actually, in second grade, we mostly watched. It was just standard wheat bread. Fr. Heinz (I’m amazed I actually remember this) was there to help. He then used our bread in our Friday morning school Mass the week after the first communion.

I did see a link to newadvent elsewhere in an old thread, but it seemed to contradict itself.
My question is whether leavened bread is acceptable for consecration, or did our priest so long ago simply ignore the rules to get the kids more into the process?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Did a quick search and found some conflicting info…
When I was in grade school (a Catholic school, obviously) we baked bread as part of our 1st communion preparation. Actually, in second grade, we mostly watched. It was just standard wheat bread. Fr. Heinz (I’m amazed I actually remember this) was there to help. He then used our bread in our Friday morning school Mass the week after the first communion.

I did see a link to newadvent elsewhere in an old thread, but it seemed to contradict itself.
My question is whether leavened bread is acceptable for consecration, or did our priest so long ago simply ignore the rules to get the kids more into the process?

He ignored or didn’t know the rules.
Using levened bread does not make the consecration invalid but illicit in the Latin Church.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Leavened bread is used by the Orthodox.

Unleavened bread is used by Catholics.

Actually, Brother Rich, I’m thinking leavened bread in the Catholic Eucharist would invalidate the sacrament under the rubric of ‘valid matter’ (which it would not be for us). Not just illicit, but invalid as well. I can see the confusion, because obviously the intent to consecrate would be there by the priest, but isn’t it like the putative ‘female ordinations’? You can say the words and have the intent to ordain, but without ‘valid matter’–it can’t be done.

To the OP–if this was in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, it was probably done innocently (I cannot count how many times I --then unknowingly–thought I was receiving a licit, valid Eucharist when I chowed down on the sweet, home-made, ‘real bread’ Eucharists offered at my Catholic college, and my Catholic parishes, in those times. )

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Leavened bread is used by the Orthodox.

Unleavened bread is used by Catholics.

Actually, Brother Rich, I’m thinking leavened bread in the Catholic Eucharist would invalidate the sacrament under the rubric of ‘valid matter’ (which it would not be for us). Not just illicit, but invalid as well. I can see the confusion, because obviously the intent to consecrate would be there by the priest, but isn’t it like the putative ‘female ordinations’? You can say the words and have the intent to ordain, but without ‘valid matter’–it can’t be done.

To the OP–if this was in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, it was probably done innocently (I cannot count how many times I --then unknowingly–thought I was receiving a licit, valid Eucharist when I chowed down on the sweet, home-made, ‘real bread’ Eucharists offered at my Catholic college, and my Catholic parishes, in those times. )

Levened Bread is also used in the Catholic Eastern Churches. It does not effect the validity of the Consecration, as long as it is wheat bread. Rye, or Rice flour or something other than Wheat flour would make it invalid.

 

[AFarmer]

It was in the 90’s.
So, what’s the difference between invalid and illicit?

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Invalid means it has not actually been effectual - in this case, not the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. Illicit means it is illegal - disobedient, and thus sinful if intentionally so, but still an effectual sacrament.

Bro. Rich correctly pointed out that leavened vs. unleavened is not an Orthodox-Catholic divide but an East-West divide (with the exception of, I believe, Armenians who, though oriental, use unleavened bread).

I would submit as an additional piece of advice that our familiarity with wafer hosts often leads Latin Catholics to confuse unleavened bread for leavened just because it is thicker and softer than what we normally use. So unless you specifically remember yeast going into the bread as a child, you shouldn’t presume the priest was using it without knowing more details about the priest and situation.

 

[AFarmer]

Andreas-
Good point.
I don’t actually remember using yeast, although I do remember it being about 4 inches tall and quite soft, and it was cut both ways into half inch cubes. I’ve baked stuff without yeast that rose at least that much. Now this brings up the point, what qualifies leavened vs. unleavened? Does only yeast count or does baking powder also count as leavening.

If I remember, I think the Israelites were to make unleavened bread because they didn’t have time to wait for it to rise in their flight from Egypt, so wouldn’t that preclude any raised bread?

 

[OraLabora]

My spritual director, a Benedictine monk, explained once that leavened bread causes all sorts of issues with crumbs; which also happen to be the Real Presence. How do you treat crumbs reverently?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Andreas-
Good point.
I don’t actually remember using yeast, although I do remember it being about 4 inches tall and quite soft, and it was cut both ways into half inch cubes. I’ve baked stuff without yeast that rose at least that much. Now this brings up the point, what qualifies leavened vs. unleavened? Does only yeast count or does baking powder also count as leavening.

If I remember, I think the Israelites were to make unleavened bread because they didn’t have time to wait for it to rise in their flight from Egypt, so wouldn’t that preclude any raised bread?

For licitness water and wheat flour are the only ingredients allowed.

 

[AFarmer]

For licitness water and wheat flour are the only ingredients allowed.

Thanks Br. Rich!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My spritual director, a Benedictine monk, explained once that leavened bread causes all sorts of issues with crumbs; which also happen to be the Real Presence. How do you treat crumbs reverently?

The same way that they are treated with unleavened bread.

There are crumbs when it is broken too.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

The same way that they are treated with unleavened bread.

There are crumbs when it is broken too.

Very true, David. But our churches’ differing forms of distribution create different problems. I think the Byzantines would mainly be faced with simply cleaning certain vessels like the priest has to cleanse the paten(s), whereas with Latins we’re usually facing the idea of depositing crumbs into the hand of most every parishioner (if such bread, and not individual wafers, were used).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Very true, David. But our churches’ differing forms of distribution create different problems. I think the Byzantines would mainly be faced with simply cleaning certain vessels like the priest has to cleanse the paten(s), whereas with Latins we’re usually facing the idea of depositing crumbs into the hand of most every parishioner (if such bread, and not individual wafers, were used).

Hence the use of intinction in the rites that use leavened bread.

 

[johnpaul2_fan]

Just out of curiousity, would it still be valid if weat flour and water were used, but the dough was shaped into fish shapes.

 

[Ghosty]

Just out of curiousity, would it still be valid if weat flour and water were used, but the dough was shaped into fish shapes.

There’s no rules about the shape of the bread

Hence the use of intinction in the rites that use leavened bread.

sigh

If only all Rites regularily used intinction. The Maronites, who use unleavened bread, also Commune by Intinction. I love it, and I wish the Latin Church used it more (it is allowed without special permission, it just requires that the priests actually do it)!

Peace and God bless!

 

[ethant]

At the Easter Vigil, I received “communion” that tasted sweet. After Mass, I asked the “Parish life coordinator” what was in the bread and was told “wheat flour, no yeast and a little honey”. In other words, I didn’t receive the body of Christ. I have noticed “different” practices which may or may not be ok that occur throughout the Mass, and are too numerous to mention here but this can’t be overlooked.

I was visiting but until family members that attend this parish decide to leave or until this type of abuse ceases, I may have to become more involved. I’m not willing to look the other way any longer.

 

[otjm]

Leavened bread is used by the Orthodox.

Unleavened bread is used by Catholics.

No, it (unleavened) is used by Catholics in the Roman rite, and I have seen it in the Maronite rite. However, in the Byzantine rite Catholic (not Orthodox) it is leavened bread.

Actually, Brother Rich, I’m thinking leavened bread in the Catholic Eucharist would invalidate the sacrament under the rubric of ‘valid matter’ (which it would not be for us). Not just illicit, but invalid as well. I can see the confusion, because obviously the intent to consecrate would be there by the priest, but isn’t it like the putative ‘female ordinations’? You can say the words and have the intent to ordain, but without ‘valid matter’–it can’t be done.

Since it is valid matter in the Catholic Church in Eastern rites, it would not be invalid matter elsewhere; it would be illicit.

 

[puzzleannie]

Just out of curiousity, would it still be valid if weat flour and water were used, but the dough was shaped into fish shapes.

try making bread with flour and water only and making it into shapes. nearly impossible. what you will get unless you have some kind of mechanical press and cutter, is a thick doughy mass, very hard to eat, and if you are not very careful, hard as rock. If baked soft enough, it is also very crumbly. Leavening is not just yeast, salt, soda and baking powder, even buttermilk are all types of leavening, which is why nothing but flour and water may be used–no sugar, honey or sweetener either. the reason the standards hosts are flat and round are to avoid crumbs, since there are no edges or corners to break.

 

[mweber6]

Can someone speak to the validity and/or legality of families mixing ingredients for the “hosts” in a special preparation for first holy communion?

 

[Khoria_Anna]

Can someone speak to the validity and/or legality of families mixing ingredients for the “hosts” in a special preparation for first holy communion?

There is nothing wrong with families making the bread for Communion, East or West. Actually, it’s the norm in smaller parishes in the East.

The problem lies in the recipe chosen and the quality of the finished bread. In the West, ingredients are limited to wheat flour and water. Problem is, in the West, it takes a lot of practice to make acceptable bread with just flour and water, so it’s a matter best left to “experienced professionals”.

In the East, ingredients are limited to wheat flour, water and yeast. Since levened bread doesn’t keep very well, most Eastern parishes find it best to have families volunteer to bake the bread within a few days before the Divine Liturgy where it is to be used.