Leaving LDS for something else

[Neurosturgeon]

I was baptized in the LDS church and I’m confused why if one decides to convert to the Catholic Church that this is not accepted as a Christian baptism. I thought that being baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost would count.

I found the LDS oppressive and left it in the early 80’s, but at my old age of 51, I have been looking for something that I can believe in, but I’m finding that the blantant dismissal of what I once truly believed in has taken on a sense of mocking what I once believed in.

I don’t like being treated like a complete idiot for having been devoted to the LDS faith, just because I feel that it doesn’t fulfil my needs, I don’t wish to condemn them.

But it is making my investing in converting very hard because it is not an easy decision to have to make, and I prefer to have the act of conversion to be one of a change in faith and not because I regained my sanity.

Is there a way to help me get over this?

Linda

 

[jaralenio]

Neurosturgeon:

I was baptized in the LDS church and I’m confused why if one decides to convert to the Catholic Church that this is not accepted as a Christian baptism. I thought that being baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost would count.

I found the LDS oppressive and left it in the early 80’s, but at my old age of 51, I have been looking for something that I can believe in, but I’m finding that the blantant dismissal of what I once truly believed in has taken on a sense of mocking what I once believed in.

I don’t like being treated like a complete idiot for having been devoted to the LDS faith, just because I feel that it doesn’t fulfil my needs, I don’t wish to condemn them.

But it is making my investing in converting very hard because it is not an easy decision to have to make, and I prefer to have the act of conversion to be one of a change in faith and not because I regained my sanity.

Is there a way to help me get over this?

Linda

Your right in that the Catholic church does not recognize a LDS baptism due to the fact that they don’t believe in a Trinitarian God and the formula in much different from Catholic formula.

If your HONESTLY searching for Truth look deep and hard into the Catholic Church. Go to an RCIA inquiry class and ask many questions and read as much as you can on the Church. I hope you find that She is the Bride of Christ and the she really is the Church that Jesus started.

I will pray for you.

 

[Tmaque]

Neurosturgeon:

I was baptized in the LDS church and I’m confused why if one decides to convert to the Catholic Church that this is not accepted as a Christian baptism. I thought that being baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost would count.

I found the LDS oppressive and left it in the early 80’s, but at my old age of 51, I have been looking for something that I can believe in, but I’m finding that the blantant dismissal of what I once truly believed in has taken on a sense of mocking what I once believed in.

I don’t like being treated like a complete idiot for having been devoted to the LDS faith, just because I feel that it doesn’t fulfil my needs, I don’t wish to condemn them.

But it is making my investing in converting very hard because it is not an easy decision to have to make, and I prefer to have the act of conversion to be one of a change in faith and not because I regained my sanity.

Is there a way to help me get over this?

Linda

Linda,

Like you I left the LDS Church in the 80’s, although for me it was the mid 80’s. After a period of agnosticism, then dabbling in New Age, I found my way into the Catholic Church in 2003. Because of the LDS view regarding the nature of God, the Catholic church has decided that their baptisms may not be valid. When you become Catholic you will be baptized for that reason. There is enough of a difference in beliefs to justify a conditional baptism.

No one is condemning you for once believing in the LDS faith. Some of the most intelligent and well respected people I know are LDS. It has nothing to do with that. It’s simply a matter of ensuring that you are indeed baptized under the Trintarian formula. The Church would be derelict in her duty if she did anything different given the circumstances. By the way, 51 isn’t “old”. God bless you on your journey.

 

[Neurosturgeon]

Thank you for your kind responses. I’m a fairly shy person and have never considered myself a “joiner.” I just am not sure if I can make the kind of commitment required to take on the investigation and training for a new faith. I have some mobility issues and it just takes a lot of effort to get out. Lame excuses, I know.

I have always been fascinated by the Catholic Church and many of my friend are of the faith. There are over a dozen Catholic Churches in my city, but more often than not, the mass is done in a language other that English. Sort of makes me think it would be easier to go back to Latin and let everyone be on an equal basis.

This isn’t an easy decision, but I have to make a move or not.

Linda

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Neurosturgeon:

. . .
I found the LDS oppressive and left it in the early 80’s, but at my old age of 51, I have been looking for something that I can believe in, but I’m finding that the blantant dismissal of what I once truly believed in has taken on a sense of mocking what I once believed in.

I don’t like being treated like a complete idiot for having been devoted to the LDS faith, just because I feel that it doesn’t fulfil my needs, I don’t wish to condemn them.

But it is making my investing in converting very hard because it is not an easy decision to have to make, and I prefer to have the act of conversion to be one of a change in faith and not because I regained my sanity.

Is there a way to help me get over this?

Linda

I stress in my RCIA class that you should not be leaving something. You should be growing into something new using the faith gained in your growth to date. While we have differences, much of what you have is valid, and all that you have experienced has contributed to bringing you to where you are now. God has given you faith. We are here to help you build on that faith.

Regarding Baptism, the Catholic intent in Baptism differs from the LDS, because of our different belief in the nature of God. Thus the LDS Baptism does not accomplish what the Catholic one does.

 

[Maranajewell]

The reason the Catholic Church does not recognize baptism in the LDS church to be valid is due to their understanding of the Godhead, that is, WHO God is. I invite any practicising LDS member to correct me if I am wrong but the LDS believe that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three SEPARATE divinities. They do not recognize the Trinitarian belief in God, which is three persons in one substance or essence or rather, being. This has been hard for many to accept or understand over the centuries and as a result many heresies have arisen due to such misunderstandings. But because of what the person undergoing baptism is taught to understand prior to partaking of baptism is incorrect to historical and revealed Christianity accepts, when agreeing to baptism, is the reason why he or she must be re-baptized when entering the Catholic Church. No one is baptized in ignorance once they are an adult. If they are baptized as an infant, it is because the Church expects the parents to bring them up with the knowledge of the Catholic Faith just as the Jews under the old Covenant were to bring up their infants who were brought into that Covenant while only eight days old. I hope this clarifies the question for you. If not, please let me know. - In God’s love, maranajewell

 

[Neurosturgeon]

The first “Article of Faith” of the LDS church is:

“We believe in God, the eternal father, and in his son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.”

That obviously is referring to three separate entities. If the Catholic Church says that they are not three separate things, but just one, does that mean that Catholics believe that God and Jesus are the same thing, as well as being the Holy Spirit?

Why would one pray to them as three separate things if they are the same thing?

How can Jesus be his own son? Why would he think that God had forsaken him, if God is not a separate entity?

Or am I just not getting this right?

This is obviously something I need to have explained, cause I’m not getting it.

Thanks for anyone who has the patience to try to explain this to me, as this is a serious point of confusion.

Linda

 

[Geocacher]

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, are ONE in spirit, perfectly merged into a single being, but at the same time God the Father Presides over Heaven, where only the perfect can reside, and at the same time Jesus can appear elsewhere, like to spirits that are trying for heaven in Purgatory(place of purification), and the holy spirit is everywhere.

If God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy spirit were only a single entity, then there was absolutly no need of prayer while Jesus was on the Earth 2000 years ago. It was during his life on Earth that he was physically separated from God the father, and so he needed all that Prayer and fasting for 40 days in the desert, in that one instance, but he also prayed at other times too, teaching others how to pray.

I believe we can never put a fixed idea on what GOD is, and this creates alot of problems.

I seem to go in between the catholic idea and the Mormon idea, and with the Mormon’s understanding is that both Heavenly Father and Jesus are FIXED into immortal PHYICAL bodies, I have a hard time with that. They are not fixed into any form I believe. I believe that Jesus can appear in his resurected pysical body or in spirit if he had to.

EXAMPLE of what ONE in SPIRIT would be like:
If a Husband and Wife, where perfectly ONE in Spirit, all thoughts would be 100 percent shared between them, no matter how far apart they were. If the Wife was in the Space Shuttle, the husband would be able to experience much of what she is experiencing without ever turning the TV on, while he is on the Earth.

 

[arieh0310]

The doctrine of the Trinity can be difficult to understand. I like to think of it as there is not a one-to-one relationship between Person and Being. A dog is one being but zero persons; a human is one person and one being; God is one Being in three Persons. There is one What and three Whos.

Another way to view it is by looking at the human being (while being careful not to delve into modalism). I can say that I am a human being (Godhead) but I have a mind (Father), a body (Son), and a soul (Holy Spirit). All three aspects are inseperable from my being not simply because we share a common purpose but because they make up the very essence of who I am.

Defense of the Trinity

Early Fathers

More Early Fathers

Q & A, person/being argument

 

[Neurosturgeon]

Thanks for all of your help. This is a difficult concept.

Linda

 

[arieh0310]

Neurosturgeon:

Thanks for all of your help. This is a difficult concept.

Linda

It is difficult to understand, but not any harder than any other theological mystery. Try contemplating God creating something out of nothing or how He is eternal and has no beginning or end.

I like the story of St Augustine and the child on the beach. A child is near the ocean, using a spoon to transfer the water from the ocean into a small hole. When Augustine remarks what a futile effort this is, the child observes how much more futile it is to try to understand God.

It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to contemplate the mysteries of God, only that we will never exhaust them.

 

[Tmaque]

Neurosturgeon:

How can Jesus be his own son? Why would he think that God had forsaken him, if God is not a separate entity?

Linda

Linda,

When Christ said while on the cross “My God my God why have you forsaken me?” he was quoting the first line of the 22nd Psalm. He was making the point that he was fulfilling that prophesy of the coming Messiah that the 22nd Psalm eludes to.

This is a footnote regarding the 22nd Psalm from the New American Bible:

[Psalm 22] A lament unusual in structure and in intensity of feeling…The last third is an invitation to praise God (Psalm 22:23-27), becoming a universal chorus of praise (Psalm 22:28-31). The psalm is important in the New Testament. Its opening words occur on the lips of the crucified Jesus (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46), and several other verses are quoted, or at least alluded to, in the accounts of Jesus’ passion (Matthew 27:35, 43; John 19:24).

It’s clear that the writers of the Gospels believed Jesus was using the 22nd Psalm to show he was the Messiah. As far as Jesus praying to the Father, we must remember that Jesus was fully human and would feel the need to pray just as we do. He knew who he was and could reconcile his two natures, but he still felt everything we feel as weak human beings. He would cry out to God just as we do.

The concept of the Trinity is an incredible mystery. The Hebrews always believed God to be a spirit, that has always been the belief. For early Christians to reconcile this fact with the presence of the divine Jesus Christ, and with the presence of the Holy Spirit, all of them God, the Trinitarian formula is the only one that makes complete sense out of these experienced realities of the early Christians (my opinion).

A good link to the Trinity is here:
kensmen.com/catholic/trinity.html

I’m still trying to grasp it, but I know I never will because God cannot truly be comprehended by mortal human minds. I would be concerned with any religion that claims to easily be able to fully comprehend God. He is infinitely greater than us in every way. Can a dog fully grasp the nature of it’s owner? It only experiences him in the narrowest of terms. The dog simply cannot comprehend even 1% of the total human being that is his owner. How much greater is God to us, than we are to a dog. I would say immeasurably so.

I hope I haven’t confused you or bored you. These are just some of my thoughts about God.

God bless you Linda.

 

[Neurosturgeon]

Tmaque:

I hope I haven’t confused you or bored you. These are just some of my thoughts about God.

Todd -

Maybe confused, but never bored. I really appreciate everyone who is trying to help me here.

This is harder than trying to understand the dialog on “The West Wing.”

Linda

 

[LDSGuy]

Tmaque:

Linda,

When Christ said while on the cross “My God my God why have you forsaken me?” he was quoting the first line of the 22nd Psalm. He was making the point that he was fulfilling that prophesy of the coming Messiah that the 22nd Psalm eludes to.

This is a footnote regarding the 22nd Psalm from the New American Bible:

[Psalm 22] A lament unusual in structure and in intensity of feeling…The last third is an invitation to praise God (Psalm 22:23-27), becoming a universal chorus of praise (Psalm 22:28-31). The psalm is important in the New Testament. Its opening words occur on the lips of the crucified Jesus (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46), and several other verses are quoted, or at least alluded to, in the accounts of Jesus’ passion (Matthew 27:35, 43; John 19:24).

It’s clear that the writers of the Gospels believed Jesus was using the 22nd Psalm to show he was the Messiah. As far as Jesus praying to the Father, we must remember that Jesus was fully human and would feel the need to pray just as we do. He knew who he was and could reconcile his two natures, but he still felt everything we feel as weak human beings. He would cry out to God just as we do.

The concept of the Trinity is an incredible mystery. The Hebrews always believed God to be a spirit, that has always been the belief. For early Christians to reconcile this fact with the presence of the divine Jesus Christ, and with the presence of the Holy Spirit, all of them God, the Trinitarian formula is the only one that makes complete sense out of these experienced realities of the early Christians (my opinion).

A good link to the Trinity is here:
kensmen.com/catholic/trinity.html

I’m still trying to grasp it, but I know I never will because God cannot truly be comprehended by mortal human minds. I would be concerned with any religion that claims to easily be able to fully comprehend God. He is infinitely greater than us in every way. Can a dog fully grasp the nature of it’s owner? It only experiences him in the narrowest of terms. The dog simply cannot comprehend even 1% of the total human being that is his owner. How much greater is God to us, than we are to a dog. I would say immeasurably so.

I hope I haven’t confused you or bored you. These are just some of my thoughts about God.

God bless you Linda.

fairlds.org/pubs/restoring/chap03.html

I think that excerpt explains well the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS view on God.

And I agree, we can never fully understand or comprehend the full nature of God. Anything that is above us or more “advanced”(to put it crudely) than us is too complicated to understand, and your analogy was good(i’ve used a similar one many times to explain things to atheists).

 

[Katzpur]

Maranajewell:

The reason the Catholic Church does not recognize baptism in the LDS church to be valid is due to their understanding of the Godhead, that is, WHO God is. I invite any practicising LDS member to correct me if I am wrong but the LDS believe that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three SEPARATE divinities. They do not recognize the Trinitarian belief in God, which is three persons in one substance or essence or rather, being. This has been hard for many to accept or understand over the centuries and as a result many heresies have arisen due to such misunderstandings. But because of what the person undergoing baptism is taught to understand prior to partaking of baptism is incorrect to historical and revealed Christianity accepts, when agreeing to baptism, is the reason why he or she must be re-baptized when entering the Catholic Church. No one is baptized in ignorance once they are an adult. If they are baptized as an infant, it is because the Church expects the parents to bring them up with the knowledge of the Catholic Faith just as the Jews under the old Covenant were to bring up their infants who were brought into that Covenant while only eight days old. I hope this clarifies the question for you. If not, please let me know. - In God’s love, maranajewell

Linda,

As a Latter-day Saint, I think it’s entirely correct for the Catholic Church to not recognize your LDS baptism (though I would disagree with their reasoning).

Baptism is a sacred ordinance which I believe must be performed by someone holding the proper authority. We don’t accept Catholic baptisms because we don’t believe they were performed by someone who was authorized by God to do so. I think it really ought to work the same way when a Latter-day Saint is converting to Catholicism.

Kathryn

 

[Neurosturgeon]

Katzpur:

Linda,

As a Latter-day Saint, I think it’s entirely correct for the Catholic Church to not recognize your LDS baptism (though I would disagree with their reasoning).

Baptism is a sacred ordinance which I believe must be performed by someone holding the proper authority. We don’t accept Catholic baptisms because we don’t believe they were performed by someone who was authorized by God to do so. I think it really ought to work the same way when a Latter-day Saint is converting to Catholicism.

Kathryn

Kathryn - I guess the concept I have a problem with is not that baptism isn’t accepted as much as it is because that LDS are not considered “Christians.” I feel that when someone accepts a faith, they should be baptized into that faith - no matter what. I guess I haven’t gotten over all those years of defending the faith with those who said LDS aren’t Christian.

It might just be easier to stay “nothing.”

Linda

 

[Tmaque]

Neurosturgeon:

Kathryn - I guess the concept I have a problem with is not that baptism isn’t accepted as much as it is because that LDS are not considered “Christians.” I feel that when someone accepts a faith, they should be baptized into that faith - no matter what. I guess I haven’t gotten over all those years of defending the faith with those who said LDS aren’t Christian.

It might just be easier to stay “nothing.”

Linda

Linda, as an ex-LDS I believe that LDS can rightly be called non-Trinitarian Christians although many of my fellow Catholics would call that an oxymoron.

That said, I simply don’t think one can effectively baptize without a proper understanding of the nature of God. The simple reason that the Catholic Church accepts baptisms by other Christian churches and not the LDS Church is because Christian churches believe in the Trinity. The LDS church simply does not. It’s very important that we agree on who God is. Otherwise one might say it’s ok if you were baptized in the name of Zeus, just as long as you were baptized.

They believe God is one person, one being.
We believe God is three persons, one being.

They believe Jesus was created.
We believe Jesus is eternal

They believe God the Father has a physical body and was not God at some point in time.
We believe there was never a time when God was not God.

They believe the universe has always existed and God is subject to the laws of the universe. He just understands them, and uses them to his advantage better than we do. Basically, he is just more evolved than we are.
We believe God created the universe and the universe is subject to him and his will

There really is quite a difference when you think about it.

Oh, and before all you LDS claim that what I’'ve posted isn’t LDS doctrine, please get your Church leaders to remove said doctrine from the www.lds.org website.

 

[amgid]

Neurosturgeon:

I was baptized in the LDS church and I’m confused why if one decides to convert to the Catholic Church that this is not accepted as a Christian baptism. I thought that being baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost would count.

Well, we don’t accept their baptisms either, so perhaps that is their way of getting their own back!

But seriously though, if you have decided to change your religion to Catholic, then that should not present you with such a problem. If you trust their religion enough to want to join it, then you should be prepared to play the game by their rules, not your own rules.

amgid

 

[Tmaque]

amgid:

But seriously though, if you have decided to change your religion to Catholic, then that should not present you with such a problem. If you trust their religion enough to want to join it, then you should be prepared to play the game by their rules, not your own rules.

amgid

amgid,

That’s not the Catholic way. We want people to come into the Church only if they can accept the teachings of the Church with their heart AND their mind. Blind faith is not an option, especially if a person has doubts and concerns. It’s a long process, takes about a year and every step of the way potential converts are asked if they are still comfortable with the journey. I know some Catholics that went to RCIA for three years before they finally decided the Church was true.

We realize that it’s a tremendous responsibilty to accept the Church and Christ. We also respect each individual’s journey towards God, and we have patience and humility with respect to that journey. I was blown away by the whole process when I started to look into Catholicism. I felt zero pressure, I knew I was totally free in every way to decide, and knew these people would still love and respect me no matter what I decided to do. amgid, the Catholic Church is the church of Jesus Christ. He is here in the members, he is here in spirit, and he is here in the Eucharist. Open your heart to the possibility that what I’m saying is true. Please open your heart, just a little, and pray. God bless you.

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

That’s not the Catholic way. We want people to come into the Church only if they can accept the teachings of the Church with their heart AND their mind. Blind faith is not an option, especially if a person has doubts and concerns. It’s a long process, takes about a year and every step of the way potential converts are asked if they are still comfortable with the journey. I know some Catholics that went to RCIA for three years before they finally decided the Church was true.

We realize that it’s a tremendous responsibilty to accept the Church and Christ. We also respect each individual’s journey towards God, and we have patience and humility with respect to that journey. I was blown away by the whole process when I started to look into Catholicism. I felt zero pressure, I knew I was totally free in every way to decide, and knew these people would still love and respect me no matter what I decided to do. amgid, the Catholic Church is the church of Jesus Christ. He is here in the members, he is here in spirit, and he is here in the Eucharist. Open your heart to the possibility that what I’m saying is true. Please open your heart, just a little, and pray. God bless you.

What relevance that has to my original post?

amgid