Leaving pro-life literature, where is it legal?

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Where is the outrage? There is no greater affront to humanity taking place in our world today than that of abortion; Murder, hidden so well from public view and labled as a medical procedure. It is very necessary to fight hardball against this ‘silent scream’, as the only real ‘shock’ here is that there is no outrage. Even if it means leaving literature and displaying graphic images so as to ‘shock’ the public into realization of the legal death and gruesome reality of what is happening before them, then that may be what it takes.
 
RobHom, you have twice (at least) said that “You can’t legislate
morality.” As a matter of fact, that is wrong. Murder is against
the law, So is rape, drugdealing, etc. Murder is immoral, and
rape, drugdealing…
But murder, rape, drugdealing, etc. is not illegal because it is immoral…it is illegal because it infringes on the right of another citizen/person. My right to swing my arm ends at your face. I think prolifers would do well to have an embryo legally declared a person in order to get abortion outlawed. Because, right now, so far, an embryo is not guaranteed the same rights under the law as those already born, because they do not have “personhood” under the eyes of the law.
 
Why not? If it is okay to kill sometimes, why not anytime?

Because the world and life is not as black and white as you would seem to like to believe.

It is murder.

And have I ever, in any of my posts, indicated that I believed abortion was anything other than ending a human life? That is precisely why, even when absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, it is a tragic situation.

What is least harmful about murder?

I see no honoring the sacredness and value of all life in allowing a woman to die simply so that a child who is not able to live outside of her body, but is killing that body and thus its own life support system, simply so that you can say that you didn’t directly kill the baby.

And if it were illegal, people are going to do it anyway, right?

Well, based on the answers I have received, yes, many of the people on this thread would and do “do it anyway.”
 
Even if it means leaving literature and displaying graphic images so as to ‘shock’ the public into realization of the legal death and gruesome reality of what is happening before them, then that may be what it takes.
“The end justifies the means.” As you are fond of speaking in terms of absolutes, are you, then, willing to apply that standard to everything?
 
How anyone can take issue with a simply printed message on a little white card that’s completely free of obscenities is beyond me. 🤷 I think those of you who are so offended by these innocent little cards are visiting the wrong website.
Please provide a link to samples of the cards that you think I am saying are objectionable (since there seems to be a lot of folks trying to claim that I am objecting to many things that I have specifically said I do not), so that we know we are talking about the same thing.
If your child is going into a public bathroom, you have much more to fear from the sayings and images carved into the walls than you’ll ever find on one of these little cards.
Oddly enough, I almost never find “sayings and images carved into the walls” in the bathrooms I go to. There is also a world of difference between words and graphic photographs, particularly for the usual child in the age range I am discussing.
What would you do if your local priest spoke about the evils of abortion in his weekly homily? Ours did, he’s one of the few good ones that is more concerned with standing up for the Catechism of the Catholic Church than keeping the collection basket full. 😉 We could use a lot more like him. And by the way, no mothers were covering their childrens’ ears during his sermon, and none of the children are any worse for having heard it.
Were there three and four year olds in the audience? Was he holding up placards with giant photos of dead babies on it during it?
When I was in seventh grade
Note that you were in seventh grade, which made you, what, 13 or so? Where have I ever said that it was inappropriate for teens to see these images in an appropriate setting? You folks keep ignoring or glossing over the fact that I am objecting to you leaving this material where young children can access it, not that it cannot or ought not to form part of something aimed at teens or adults or even late pre-teens.
If even one human life is saved by it, it’s well worth the minor inconvenience it may cause a few overprotective mothers.
“The end justifies the means.”
I’m going to start doing this myself, and I agree that if these items are strategically placed they could definitely make a difference(women’s health books, in and around clinics, etc.).
What’s “strategic” about leaving them laying around where young children can easily find them?

BTW, since I do not frequent them I do not know----do you folks leave these laying all over men’s rooms as well?
 
Apparently you don’t consider it to be a problem.
I don’t consider what to be a problem, precisely? That there are things in our society that I feel are harmful to a young child or from which I feel the need to protect my child?
So you should have no problem with graphic literature, because you are taking appropriate steps to make sure your children never see them. Blindfolds, perhaps?
Only if your actions make it necessary.

For about the 5 millionth time, the word “never” is not appropriate in this context. I have not said that my child should “never” (as in “not in her lifetime”) see such images. I am saying that there is no need to rub the faces of preschoolers in them.
 
It appears that you feel you are not in control.
In what way?
How much control do you have over what kind of bumper sticker I choose to display.
None. I can only point out to you the effects of your choice on others and hope that that makes some impact. One expects that others will have the basic courtesy to adhere to some standard of decency, understanding that there are differences in the appropriateness of actions based on place and audience in one’s actions. One, for instance, expects that one’s neighbors have the courtesy and sense of appropriateness not to have sex on the front lawn as the school bus drops kids off or serve beer instead of juice boxes at their 4 year old’s birthday party. However, if one discovers that one’s neighbors are indeed doing such a thing, one is certainly expected to speak up about it and the effect it has on one’s child.

To ask the neighbor to have sex inside their house is not, to my mind, so unusual or heinous an expectation. If my neighbor tells me they are trying to get pregnant and think that sex on the lawn at 3 pm is the best way for them to do that, as well as encouraging others to get pregnant, am I expected to withdraw my objections and set out blankets and popcorn for the neighborhood biology lesson simply because I think couples having babies is a desirable thing?

Seems like I also recall a specific differentiation in applying something to one’s personal property vs. leaving things on other people’s property without their consent.
 
A distinction without a difference.
Only if you define morals only as actions without regard to intent. I believe you could probably come up with a few thoughts that the Church considers immoral in and of themselves, but that, if not taken to the point of action, would not be breaking the law.
 
Only if you define morals only as actions without regard to intent. I believe you could probably come up with a few thoughts that the Church considers immoral in and of themselves, but that, if not taken to the point of action, would not be breaking the law.
Abortion not being one of them.
 
KarenNC, I think we should rename this topic to: “Everybody Listen to KarenNC” since that’s what you’re trying to make it (all about you). :rolleyes:

Let’s get one thing straight, you were the agressor here. This has been evident since page one, when you first started railing against TraderTif despite her many attempts to politely explain her inoffensive little cards.
Please provide a link to samples of the cards that you think I am saying are objectionable (since there seems to be a lot of folks trying to claim that I am objecting to many things that I have specifically said I do not), so that we know we are talking about the same thing.
I’m talking about the cards that TraderTif was distributing(you remember, the person you so rudely hijacked this thread from?), plain text on white paper with no prophanities:
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TraderTif:
blink blink Perhaps I should hasten to add that these are not graphic in any sense of the word. They are small, business cards with somewhat-gentler pro-life slogans, like the following…

-Quote from Mother Theresa
lifedynamics.com/Abortion…ion-card09.jpg

-equal rights slogan
lifedynamics.com/Abortion…ion-card28.jpg

-Quote from JPII
lifedynamics.com/Abortion…ion-card16.jpg

etc., etc.

I have no intention of leaving anything graphic just lying around!! And I know that these will all end up in the trash anyway, but what’s the problem???
The quote below(from page one) clearly illustrates your dislike of the simple plain text cards that TraderTif distributes, even after she offered an honest explanation of what she does and the precautions she takes to choose inoffensive material. Your initial argument was that the very word “abortion” was something your child shouldn’t see or hear.
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KarenNC:
So you would consider it okay to be forced into discussing the topic of abortion with your 5 year old because she picked up one of your cards? Yes, my 5 year old would have been perfectly capable of reading those cards you showed and would have asked what that meant.
Now back to your recent post:
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KarenNC:
There is also a world of difference between words and graphic photographs, particularly for the usual child in the age range I am discussing.
I completely agree, which is why I can’t understand why you continued to attack TraderTif, even after you learned that she wasn’t distributing cards with graphic photographs. :rolleyes:
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KarenNC:
Were there three and four year olds in the audience? Was he holding up placards with giant photos of dead babies on it during it?
Children of all ages were in attendance, it was just two Sundays ago. Surely if your child can’t be exposed to plain text cards, you’d flip if your priest had the audacity to speak about the dreaded “A-word” in front of your child. You’d probably carry him/her out of the church! :eek:

KarenNC said:
“The end justifies the means.”

Let’s weigh the options to find the greater good:

Saving a child’s life OR Shielding a five year old from reading the word “Abortion”

Now, I’m no theologian, but I think I know which one Jesus would choose! :newidea:
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KarenNC:
What’s “strategic” about leaving them laying around where young children can easily find them?
If your child is going around reading books on women’s sexual health and visiting abortion clinics, you’ve clearly failed as a parent.
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KarenNC:
BTW, since I do not frequent them I do not know----do you folks leave these laying all over men’s rooms as well?
Oh, and she’s a feminist, too?! :rotfl:

Wow, judging from that comment and your earlier ones, I think it’s clear where you stand on this issue and why you’ve been fighting for ten pages now. :yup:

And FYI: I’ve seen many pro-life stickers in men’s bathrooms, they’re usually on or near the condom dispenser. Oh, and there’s going to be a LOT MORE of them, too, because now I’ve ordered a couple rolls of them to distribute.

So I guess I should thank you, KarenNC - Your arguments have clearly illustrated why we all need to go out and distribute these cards and pamphlets to get people talking about the dreaded “A-word”. Just look at all the dialogue TraderTif’s little cards have caused here! 👍
 
KarenNC, I think we should rename this topic to: “Everybody Listen to KarenNC” since that’s what you’re trying to make it (all about you). :rolleyes:
It’s “all about me” because I continue to respond to posts directed specifically at me? Actually I thought it was “all about” specific practices of some of those who identify as “pro-life activists.”
Let’s get one thing straight, you were the agressor here. This has been evident since page one, when you first started railing against TraderTif despite her many attempts to politely explain her inoffensive little cards.
The only thing I have been “railing” against is the practice of leaving cards with graphic images of dead babies in areas where young children are likely to encounter them rather than taking the responsibility to see where one’s efforts end up. The fact that there are people who seem to believe that this is a laudatory practice has generated the pages of conversation.
I’m talking about the cards that TraderTif was distributing(you remember, the person you so rudely hijacked this thread from?), plain text on white paper with no prophanities.
The quote below(from page one) clearly illustrates your dislike of the simple plain text cards that TraderTif distributes, even after she offered an honest explanation of what she does and the precautions she takes to choose inoffensive material. Your initial argument was that the very word “abortion” was something your child shouldn’t see or hear.
You are correct that I am not overfond of them, as I have said clearly I think the entire practice of strewing material all over the countryside with no care as to where it ends up is counterproductive regardless of the reason, but no, they are not nearly as much of an issue for me as the ones that I pointed out in the post following the one you mentioned:

“The ones that I (and my young daughter) have been finding around, in public restrooms, laying on the ground (and stuck on my car) are more along these lines (be warned, these are very graphic photos): http://www.abortionno.org/Store/business_cards.html

You are correct. I don’t see any pressing need or advantage to introducing the concept of abortion to a young child. There is plenty of ugly in this world that doesn’t need to form the basis of teaching preschoolers and early elementary children. There are plenty of other ways to educate them about the value of life at that stage. Should it be discussed when they are older and able to process it in a meaningful way even if it is disturbing? Certainly.
I completely agree, which is why I can’t understand why you continued to attack TraderTif, even after you learned that she wasn’t distributing cards with graphic photographs. :rolleyes:
“Continued to attack”? The entire text of my supposed “continual attack” consists of one post in which I explain the cards I have encountered— the paragraph quoted above and

"So you would consider it okay to be forced into discussing the topic of abortion with your 5 year old because she picked up one of your cards? Yes, my 5 year old would have been perfectly capable of reading those cards you showed and would have asked what that meant.

I intensely dislike this form of littering under the guise of “helping” regardless of the cause, be it religious, ethical or advertising, but the particular ones I have been encountering have been heinous."

I hardly see that this constitutes “continual attack.” In fact, I have stated multiple times that, while I dislike this method when used by anyone, what I am particularly objecting to is the practice of using cards with graphic photos. It is the folks who advocate and defend the practice of putting such photos in the hands of children to be an absolute essential to spreading their message who are generating the posts to which I continue to reply.
Children of all ages were in attendance, it was just two Sundays ago. Surely if your child can’t be exposed to plain text cards, you’d flip if your priest had the audacity to speak about the dreaded “A-word” in front of your child. You’d probably carry him/her out of the church! :eek:
Was he using visual aids such as I am describing? My participation in this discussion long since ceased to be about “plain text cards,” as has that of several others. If you have read the thread as thoroughly as you indicate, then you should realize that. Do I consider a sermon on abortion to be appropriate for children of the age we are discussing? Frankly, no I do not and if I were part of a religious organization which had such, I probably would not be staying in the service with my child until she was old enough to process the information in a meaningful way.

continued
 
Let’s weigh the options to find the greater good
How about we actually discuss the part that I am saying is the most objectionable and which mapleoak and philothea and others find no big deal and actually to be encouraged regardless of any costs.
If your child is going around reading books on women’s sexual health and visiting abortion clinics, you’ve clearly failed as a parent.
Well, as it is being advocated that preschoolers need to be educated about every aspect of abortion by things people leave laying around a public bathroom, I guess I ought to be getting kids the Joy of Sex and a coffee table book on the Holocaust for the next holiday. (and folks complain that anyone wants to offer sex ed in kindergarten—what do you think you are doing via this?)

I suppose if she has to ride in her own family’s car, eat in a public restaurant, visit the dentist, open a holiday or birthday card or go to the bathroom anywhere other than my house I have also failed? These are just a few of the places that your co-religionists are advocating putting the cards with the graphic images.

Let’s look, for instance, at urban-hermit’s posts:
" know you said you are not distributing graphic images. But even if you were, a kid who inadvertantly sees a graphic picture will get over it, whereas the girl or boy in the picture wasn’t so lucky. I understand why some parents would object to this, but at the same time I also feel those same parents may have lost their sense of urgency about the problem of abortion, or else want to avoid talking about it at all costs, even though it is enormously prevalent. It’s like the elephant in the living room - except most of the time our culture hides the elephant somehow. The graphic pictures are ugly, of course, but they serve the purpose of forcing this genocide into being acknowledged, recognized and discussed."
“From the priests for life link I posted earlier:
13) Leave pro-life literature wherever you can: in public places, at restaurants, as inserts in the mail you send, on cars, etc. Give literature to friends. Send it also in prepaid business reply envelopes that come in the mail. Include it in cards you send for Christmas, birthdays, and other occasions.”
And urbanhermit is not alone in advocating such. Look at posts #127 and #128 by philothea.

Exactly what value is seen in having such images “acknowledged, recognized and discussed” by preschoolers and young elementary children, I still fail to fathom.

To me, it is the same reasoning as saying "We are fighting what we believe to be a just war and we think that it is possible that some folks who might be enemy soldiers are over there in that family restaurant miles from the fighting zone because we have seen folks of the right age and sex go in there before. Since it is good to reduce the number of enemy soldiers, even by only one, we are going to lay down some random gunfire into the restaurant hoping that we hit someone who actually might turn out to be an enemy soldier. Once we have fired, we will leave and go on to the other businesses on this street and repeat.

Yes, we know that there are a bunch of children in there on a regular basis, but it is only of very minor concern. If they get hit, it’s likely only to be by ricochet and be a flesh wound at worst. No, it’s not the most ideal thing to shoot children under normal circumstances, but this is war and we have to reduce the enemy soldiers and we don’t think what we’ve been doing by focusing on actual military targets is working well enough so we are expanding into random hit and run attacks on the civilian areas. Parents ought to be prepared for their kids getting shot, anyway, because they know that guns exist and people use them, even if the actual war zone is nowhere near here. They should be prepared for gunfire anywhere at any time. If they are trying to avoid the shooting by avoiding the war zone, they are just sheltering their kids and making them into wimps—they ought to toughen them up.

Even if they do get hit, it’s not likely to cause lasting harm, kids are resilient, you know. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter who actually gets hit, it will be worth it as long as we think we might possibly get rid of one enemy soldier or someone who might eventually have become a soldier, not that we will be able to tell since we aren’t going to be around to see who got hit. It’s the best way for the kids to learn about the bad things that the enemy does, anyway, and keep them from becoming enemy soldiers in the future."

The end (removing enemy soldiers) does not justify the means (randomly shooting into crowds of civilians that you know include children).
Oh, and she’s a feminist, too?!
First, what do you mean by “feminist,” and how in the world can you judge whether or not I am such on the basis of a simple request for information?
 
The end (removing enemy soldiers) does not justify the means (randomly shooting into crowds of civilians that you know include children).

?
So leaving literature that shows the evil of killing 1.2 million children a year is the moral equivalent to soldiers firing into a crowd of civilians???:confused: :confused: :confused:
 
YES, they do keep the abortion debate as abstract as possible, which is why they fly into indignant conniptions when anyone describe what actually goes on in abortion.
Crisis pregnancy centers fly into indignant conniptions when anyone describes what goes on in an abortion? Seems odd that they would do so.
 
Out of curiosity, as very early education on the specifics of abortion and exposure to these graphic images of aborted babies is seen as so vital to preventing children from having abortions themselves, at what level are such included in the curricula of Catholic schools? I have been trying to find a scope and sequence or an example of an abortion curriculum for a Catholic kindergarten program to see how they are using those images in that setting, but I haven’t been able to find one yet.
 
“The end justifies the means.” As you are fond of speaking in terms of absolutes, are you, then, willing to apply that standard to everything?
Which end justifies what means? Are you referring to the “end” as the intent to stop abortion and the “means” as the act of publishing and distributing literature on the heinous crime of abortion, whether graphic or not? If so, than yes, the end most definately justifies the means. The one tips so the scale so far out of balance for justification, it is pathetic.
One expects that others will have the basic courtesy to adhere to some standard of decency, understanding that there are differences in the appropriateness of actions based on place and audience in one’s actions. One, for instance, expects that one’s neighbors have the courtesy and sense of appropriateness not to have sex on the front lawn as the school bus drops kids off or serve beer instead of juice boxes at their 4 year old’s birthday party. However, if one discovers that one’s neighbors are indeed doing such a thing, one is certainly expected to speak up about it and the effect it has on one’s child.
Firstly, why do you insist on using this as an example? Comparing the distribution of literature designed to promote public awareness of the horror and evil that is happening, and will continue to happen, with that of lude public behaviour is ridiculous. For one, if someone is at all shocked at how something as evil as abortion could be happening, they should stop being a passive bystander who constantly complains about graphic photos, and do something to help end the violence, rather than trying to hide the truth so as not to offend someone. The risk of a few people being offended is peanuts compared to millions of dead babies.
Oh, and she’s a feminist, too?! :rotfl:
I wouldn’t even begin to try to get that admission out 😉
Oddly enough, I almost never find “sayings and images carved into the walls” in the bathrooms I go to.
This is totally amazing. Frankly I don’t believe that for a minute. Either you are lying, or you don’t go to any public restrooms. If you don’t go to them, are you suggesting that people shield their children from obscenities strewn in restrooms by never taking them to a public restroom? Most people in the real world don’t having the luxury of not encountering all sorts of affronts to their decency and morality. They have to teach their children to understand that there are people with evil intentions in the world and to reject such things.
There is a world of difference between words and graphic photographs, particularly for the usual child in the age range I am discussing.
In what way? There is more to a book than a movie, for instance. In fact, words can draw a picture in the mind in much more detail than an actual picture could.
Note that you were in seventh grade, which made you, what, 13 or so? Where have I ever said that it was inappropriate for teens to see these images in an appropriate setting? You folks keep ignoring or glossing over the fact that I am objecting to you leaving this material where young children can access it, not that it cannot or ought not to form part of something aimed at teens or adults or even late pre-teens.
No one is “glossing over” anything. I will say, however, that to say you object to leaving the material where young children can ‘access’ it, is really your way of saying YOU don’t like to see the truth about abortion, for whatever reason. Due to teen’s higher level of understanding, they are much more prone to be upset at seeing a graphic picture if they never have before, than will a 5 year old who can barely comprehend what he is looking at.
 
Out of curiosity, as very early education on the specifics of abortion and exposure to these graphic images of aborted babies is seen as so vital to preventing children from having abortions themselves, at what level are such included in the curricula of Catholic schools? I have been trying to find a scope and sequence or an example of an abortion curriculum for a Catholic kindergarten program to see how they are using those images in that setting, but I haven’t been able to find one yet.
Visit the Knights for Life website where you will find a suggested curriculum for all children beginning at Pre-Kindergarten. Now keep in mind that they don’t suggest teaching these kids what an actual abortion is until much later, but as I have been saying all along, we need to start planting seeds as they suggest. The curriculum is a pro-life teaching that includes teaching children about the horrors of abortion at a later age. They certainly don’t receommend using graphic images, which I don’t think anyone else has either. I think the argument here is against what appears to be you stance that children shouldn’t be exposed to it at all.

cpforlife.org/id105.htm

Considering the OP doesn’t even use the graphic cards, I would have to agree that this thread was hijacked. And as far as my stance on the graphic cards, I certainly don’t want them in front of my children, but I do believe they have their place.
 
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