Leaving the Catholic Church over sexual issues

[mkingdomlvr]

I realize that this is not about the Church and Homosexuality-but something really struck me as I read through it.

On the one hand, we have posters stating the teaching of the Church correctly and succinctly-and on the other we have a poster referring to the “infiltration” of homosexuals into the clergy.

If Catholic teaching on homosexuality is to be accepted, it seems to me that whether a clergy member is gay or straight should mean nothing. If a man is gay, and he breaks his vow of celibacy, how is that different from a man who is straight and breaks his vow of celibacy? Same vow, right? Same act-sex outside of marriage. The only difference is the sex of the person the man broke the vow with.

Unless there really is a difference in how the Catholic Church views homosexuals and sexual sins involving them, and that the Church-despite what she says-thinks that homosexuals are somehow more sinful by their nature than others.

 

[phoenix3212]

If Catholic teaching on homosexuality is to be accepted, it seems to me that whether a clergy member is gay or straight should mean nothing. If a man is gay, and he breaks his vow of celibacy, how is that different from a man who is straight and breaks his vow of celibacy? Same vow, right? Same act-sex outside of marriage. The only difference is the sex of the person the man broke the vow with.

Exactly. If a predisposition to sin was a bar from the priesthood, well, there’d be no such thing as priests.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

Exactly. If a predisposition to sin was a bar from the priesthood, well, there’d be no such thing as priests.

Yet, if I remember correctly there was recently a rule put in that men with homosexual orientations are not to be accepted into the priesthood. If I am correct about that, isn’t that sending a message that the particular predisposition to sin with regard to homosexuals is viewed differently?

 

[prodigalson12]

Yet, if I remember correctly there was recently a rule put in that men with homosexual orientations are not to be accepted into the priesthood. If I am correct about that, isn’t that sending a message that the particular predisposition to sin with regard to homosexuals is viewed differently?

What if their predisposition orientation was with being a pedafile, what if their predisposition was to include being any number of things on top of that, yet they physically obstain from those acts. Would this very concept clearly detail the lack of repentance itself? Sin in your heart and mind is just as valid as sin in the real world, why don’t people understand this basic fundamental concept?

 

[mkingdomlvr]

What if their predisposition orientation was with being a pedafile, what if their predisposition was to include being any number of things on top of that, yet they physically obstain from those acts. Would this very concept clearly detail the lack of repentance itself? Sin in your heart and mind is just as valid as sin in the real world, why don’t people understand this basic fundamental concept?

So following that logic, how would ever get anyone worthy of the Priesthood? Any sin in the heart or mind even if not acted upon would disqualify them.

Do you really think once a man becomes a Priest he stops thinking about women, or anything else that might be considered sinful?

BTW-desiring to have sex with a child is not even close to the same thing as desiring to have sex with an adult that is capable of consent.

 

[losh14]

So following that logic, how would ever get anyone worthy of the Priesthood? Any sin in the heart or mind even if not acted upon would disqualify them.

Do you really think once a man becomes a Priest he stops thinking about women, or anything else that might be considered sinful?

BTW-desiring to have sex with a child is not even close to the same thing as desiring to have sex with an adult that is capable of consent.

It’s not the desire but rather the self-control that matters. A straight priest who sleeps around is certainly not preferred to a gay priest who maintains his chastity intact. Although their sexuality remains a part of them as humans, priests are supposed to subordinate themselves in chastity and purity as part of their service. Private desire can be alleviated in confession, but any action on that desire - no matter how acceptable it would be in a married man - brings scandal.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

It’s not the desire but rather the self-control that matters. A straight priest who sleeps around is certainly not preferred to a gay priest who maintains his chastity intact. Although their sexuality remains a part of them as humans, priests are supposed to subordinate themselves in chastity and purity as part of their service. Private desire can be alleviated in confession, but any action on that desire - no matter how acceptable it would be in a married man - brings scandal.

There have been two recent examples-Archbishop Weakland and Father Cutie. Weakland admitted to a homosexual affair, Cutie to an affair with a woman. In my mind-BOTH equally broke their vows. I don’t think that Weakland was more sinful because he was with a man. The way I read it, both broke their vows AND had sex outside the confines of marriage.

The only thing about Weakland’s crime that was worse was the $$ he gave to that partner. It doesn’t look like Fr Cutie gave his partner any church funds.

 

[authenticity]

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

What I understand as the Church’s central position in morality is that a human life is immeasurably valuable because he or she is made in the image of God. As Jesus said, “…Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.” (Matthew 25:40) The Church’s stance on sexuality is meant to uphold human dignity and not to cast anyone into hell.

Essentially, I think we need to bring people back from the peripheral to the essential. The only reason a person comes to a modernist conclusion is because they are missing the essential.

 

[budgie2]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.
The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin. One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

I responded that though there are things I disagree with or struggle with in the Church, I’m not willing to leave that Grace behind for the sake of making my friends happy, and asking whether the alternative (give everyone all the condoms they need) would make for a better world. And I admonished them in seeking that they should not try to find the love of God outside of the holiness of God - and that one must be perfect to enter Heaven. One of the friends said “Who’s perfect? Why would I want to believe in a God like that?”

To me, this is a misplaced mindset - putting 21st century liberal values before Christian beliefs. To them, my mindset is the old one and needs to be brought “up to date” with the progressive world around us. In other words - modernism.

How can we, in our conversations, overcome such barriers to Christ? I would argue that these issues are peripheral - especially for those of us who are not homosexuals - especially when compared with central doctrine of salvation. Indeed, should I reject Christ altogether because my friends are left out?

I’ve not read all the thread but it made me laugh. I’ve been doing research on contraception and the UN gives out condoms in brothels in certain countries in Africa. What is acceptable behaviour for a prostitute in order to protect herself is not the same as correct behaviour for the Catholic faithful. There’s also a large Catholic Church in Africa. I believe it’s possible that condoms could protect against a certain level of STI but again money should be spent on developing a vaccine, if you believe what the sexual health charities say. My manager’s daughter also volunteered for an AIDs charity. She wasn’t given any training as such and just told to bring condoms. So she bought 200 condoms(Durex) before she went to Togo which is a mainly Muslim African country for the summer holidays. She was a university student and I don’t know if she was handing condoms out in the street or sticking them through peoples’ letter boxes or what. I thought it was highly inappropriate for an untrained university student to be giving out condoms in Muslim Africa.

 

[Christopher68]

There have been some very good and well thought out posts on this thread.

The issue of homosexuality is a complex one, from my perspective. From everything I have read, I tend to believe that some people are born having homosexual tendencies, and that this is not something they have simply ‘chosen’ for themselves. I believe God made them that way, just as He made me a heterosexual. I struggle with the notion that God made some people homosexuals, only to ask them to deny their natural feelings for the entirety of their earthly lives.

 

[Spiritoftruth]

…speaking from x-catholic’s that I personally knew… i am yet to meet a catholic that left the church over theology… i have met bunches that left over wanting to divorce and remarry or just shack…err…co-habitate…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

…speaking from x-catholic’s that I personally knew… i am yet to meet a catholic that left the church over theology… i have met bunches that left over wanting to divorce and remarry or just shack…err…co-habitate…

Most ex-Christians in general that I’ve listened to could not accurately represent their former faith, showing they never had real knowledge of what it truly meant any way

 

[rpp]

…speaking from x-catholic’s that I personally knew… i am yet to meet a catholic that left the church over theology… i have met bunches that left over wanting to divorce and remarry or just shack…err…co-habitate…

Most ex-Christians in general that I’ve listened to could not accurately represent their former faith, showing they never had real knowledge of what it truly meant any way

Yup and Yup!

Referring to the OP, these people have bought into the erroneous concept that to condemn sin is to condemn a person; to hate sin is to hate a person. They also seem to think that humans are animals and unable to control their sexual impulse. I feel genuine pity for people who have been so deluded.

 

[losh14]

Something of an update here …

I talked with one of these friends again at a holiday party. She was very defensive about her Lutheranism and described herself as Catholic (because she prays the Rosary) even though she volunteers on two committees at the Lutheran church, sends her three kids to the Lutheran school, teaches VBS and hasn’t been to Mass in two years. But she remains Catholic because she prays the Rosary and hasn’t ‘officially’ converted yet.
I suggested (tactlessly) that she’s a Lutheran with Catholic nostalgia and that’s fine but call a spade a spade. That got a small beratement from my wife and an agreement going forward not to have too many martinis at these sort of things.

 

[Lauds]

Exactly.

Condoms are not 100%, but they would cut it down, there is nobody who is gonna practice abstinence. Look at the countries where babies are skin & bone & the parents are too, but they keep having babies. Sex drive is too strong for most of the world population

 

[vera_dicere]

There’s a lot of ignorance about the true teachings of the Catholic church, even among the faithful.

I know someone who recently left the Catholic church, they made a big song and dance about it and how the Catholic church was evil and backwards and all these other silly little rants and raves about paedophiles and hell fire. The reality was, they were leaving because a Priest had given them a “telling off” because she confided in him that she was having sex with her boyfriend. Thing was, she was married, and in the process of a civil divorce, the divorce was because she had cheated on her husband with a different person to the new boyfriend - who she actually cheated with on the orginal lover!

She was mad at the priest because he said to her that adultery and pre-marital sex was a grave sin.

There will be people who will leave the church because they don’t like the truth, and such a truth acts as a hinderence to their immoral behaviour.

She now expresses a very deep hatred for the church.

In these situations, its not the RCC’s fault, its the person’s, and people don’t like to know when something is their fault.

 

[Lauds]

There’s a lot of ignorance about the true teachings of the Catholic church, even among the faithful.

I know someone who recently left the Catholic church, they made a big song and dance about it and how the Catholic church was evil and backwards and all these other silly little rants and raves about paedophiles and hell fire. The reality was, they were leaving because a Priest had given them a “telling off” because she confided in him that she was having sex with her boyfriend. Thing was, she was married, and in the process of a civil divorce, the divorce was because she had cheated on her husband with a different person to the new boyfriend - who she actually cheated with on the orginal lover!

She was mad at the priest because he said to her that adultery and pre-marital sex was a grave sin.

There will be people who will leave the church because they don’t like the truth, and such a truth acts as a hinderence to their immoral behaviour.

She now expresses a very deep hatred for the church.

In these situations, its not the RCC’s fault, its the person’s, and people don’t like to know when something is their fault.

You are so right about what You posted here, Catholics do not want to hear the truth, possibly even me

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

There’s a lot of ignorance about the true teachings of the Catholic church, even among the faithful.

I know someone who recently left the Catholic church, they made a big song and dance about it and how the Catholic church was evil and backwards and all these other silly little rants and raves about paedophiles and hell fire. The reality was, they were leaving because a Priest had given them a “telling off” because she confided in him that she was having sex with her boyfriend. Thing was, she was married, and in the process of a civil divorce, the divorce was because she had cheated on her husband with a different person to the new boyfriend - who she actually cheated with on the orginal lover!

She was mad at the priest because he said to her that adultery and pre-marital sex was a grave sin.

There will be people who will leave the church because they don’t like the truth, and such a truth acts as a hinderence to their immoral behaviour.

She now expresses a very deep hatred for the church.

In these situations, its not the RCC’s fault, its the person’s, and people don’t like to know when something is their fault.

*Isn’t that how the Church of England started? Henry VIII wanted a divorce or an annulment and was excommunicated because of it? Then he just went ahead and started his own church instead of trying to rectify the situation. Some of those protestant churches were started in some very strange ways. I guess it’s the same with Catholics who pull away from the Church. It doesn’t suit their liberal views or it conflicts with their personal lifestyle. *

 

[Highwayhound]

You’re absolutely right–what the industrialized world has done to Africa is grossly appalling. And I understand the Pope’s position with regard to condoms and Catholic morality, but it seems that this situation is about more than rules, but about life and death. Despite what many Roman Catholics and others believe regarding condom use, it does help prevent HIV infection.

Please take a read of this report about the AIDS situation in Africa. The report gives a lot of information about the rates of infection in various African countries. The report indicates that abstinence programs are the most effective way to prevent AIDS.

examiner.com/x-28246-Africa-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m12d1-Abstinence-in-Africa?cid=edition-by-channel-rss-National-News

And if the goal is to reduce HIV infection, it seems immoral not to use condoms in the fight. If the goal is to make people abide by Roman sexual morality, then I suppose denying condoms is in concert with that goal. But it seems to me that more people could be persuaded to eventually abide by Roman sexual morality if more people did not die of AIDS.

This next report is based on the model the country of Uganda. Over the decade of 1991 to 2001 the rate of infection declined from 15% to 5%. The primary elements of the Ugandan program were abstinence and chastity.

Here is a snippet:

Based on research data collected over the past decade, several lessons can be drawn from the success of Uganda’s strategy:

•High-risk sexual behaviors can be discouraged and replaced by healthier lifestyles.
•Abstinence and marital fidelity appear to be the most important factors in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.
•Condoms do not play the primary role in reducing HIV/AIDS transmission.
•Religious organizations are crucial participants in the fight against AIDS.

My cousin Dennis died of AIDS. It is a matter to understand as fully as possible, and it is important to honestly look at objective facts.

God bless

 

[Rence]

Condoms are not 100%, but they would cut it down, there is nobody who is gonna practice abstinence. Look at the countries where babies are skin & bone & the parents are too, but they keep having babies. Sex drive is too strong for most of the world population

I can live with the Vatican teaching that codoms are forbidden do to Her Teachings and Traditions. I can accept that and that’s fine. But when it comes to the effectiveness of condoms used to prevent the transmission of STDs, including HIV, I’ll stick with what CDC says because they researched it and presented their findings with many references. When used CORRECTLY condoms DO prevent the transmission of HIV. That’s a fact, pure and simple. The fact that people aren’t using them correctly doesn’t mean condoms aren’t effective, it means that people aren’t following directions.

cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm
cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/references.html

Now, if the Pope is saying that condoms aren’t effective in controlling the spread of HIV in Africa because the people there aren’t following the rules regarding condom usage, well, that’s obvious, and I agree with it. But when used properly, according to the research, it IS effective.