Leaving the Catholic Church over sexual issues

[losh14]

Now, if the Pope is saying that condoms aren’t effective in controlling the spread of HIV in Africa because the people there aren’t following the rules regarding condom usage, well, that’s obvious, and I agree with it. But when used properly, according to the research, it IS effective.

I think we’re talking about the distinction between clinical effectiveness and epidemiological effectiveness. The former is the percentage of time that the condom succeeds in preventing the spread of infection, the latter is how often they are used correctly.

It is situational. Condoms are appropriate for ceasing the spread of HIV in the sex trade in Thailand (though closing the sex trade would be more effective). Condoms are not appropriate to cease the spread of HIV through rape, whether marital or otherwise, which is one of the causes of the spread of HIV in Africa.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Something of an update here …

I talked with one of these friends again at a holiday party. She was very defensive about her Lutheranism and described herself as Catholic (because she prays the Rosary) even though she volunteers on two committees at the Lutheran church, sends her three kids to the Lutheran school, teaches VBS and hasn’t been to Mass in two years. But she remains Catholic because she prays the Rosary and hasn’t ‘officially’ converted yet.
I suggested (tactlessly) that she’s a Lutheran with Catholic nostalgia and that’s fine but call a spade a spade. That got a small beratement from my wife and an agreement going forward not to have too many martinis at these sort of things.

Ah, thanks for the update. I was wondering why an old thread from June was being debated. I agree that your comments were tactless and also suspect it’s best to not discuss this type of thing after too many martinis.

As a Catholic who used to attend a Lutheran Church with my husband (who was Lutheran) I would like to offer my viewpoints as to what might be going on inside her head.

First, I don’t think she simply opposes the Pope’s opposition to condoms in Africa–I suspect she opposes the Pope’s moral objection to condoms and contraception within her bedroom. She’s probably not simply opposed to Catholic teachings about homosexuality–she likely fails to understand and/or agree with the Catholic teachings about sex needing to be open to life to be moral. Homosexuality is simply one example of sex being closed off to life–the Church expresses moral concerns about *all aspect *of sex that is not open to life. The Gospel hits us right between the legs.

Somethng your friend and many Lutherans may not know is that Martin Luther was opposed to contraception. Lutheranism is very similar to Catholicism in many ways. It’s liturgical and familiar. Lutherans often read the exact same readings at service that Catholics read. They offer communion with some regularity, (although the frequency of communion at their services depends on the particular pastor and congregations.) Officially Lutherans even believe in the real pressence. I met lots of former Catholics when attending my husband’s Lutheran church–and many of them still considered themselves Catholic. I understand Martin Luther considered himself Catholic and had devotion to Mary.

As far as your friend praying the Rosary while attending a Lutheran church, please don’t discourage her! Praying the Rosary contributed in part to my eventual return to the Catholic Church. When I returned, I took a closer look at some of these very issues your friend brings up, particularly contraception. First time around as a Catholic, I knew many people who simply ignored the Church’s teachings and who said the Church needed to change and would change. When I returned, it was quite obvious that the Church had not changed her stand against contraception. I felt compelled to investigate it further.

While I was away attending the Lutheran church, I did grown in my faith. I grew in it enough so that I became willing to follow Christ even when it made me uncomfortable–even when He asked me to do something I didn’t want to do–even when the Gospel hit me right between the legs.

 

[mark_a]

Recently I spoke with three friends of my wife’s, all of whom say they’re considering leaving the Catholic Church - two of them said they were considering the Lutheran Church.

Their reasons?

One was in opposition to the Pope’s prohibition of condoms in Africa.

The other two disagree with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality as a sin.

One of her friends told me “I can’t believe in a God who tells me I have to hate my friends”.

Sounds to me like outside the Catholic Church is where they already are.

 

[bluelake]

Thanks for the support here.

I had a few more thoughts - I should have posited Benedict’s outreach to the Muslim world as well as his support of resolutions to protect immigrants and refugees.

And I’ve often wondered why people in rich nations are so adamant about GLBT issues. Viewed in perspective of the entire world, GLBT issues have a very small impact compared with the problems that refugees and the poor face, as well as those who live in nations where more basic civil rights (life, liberty, justice) are denied. It almost seems selfish to say that you’d reject an organization that does so much corporal as well as spiritual good because that organization is in opposition to same-sex marriages.

Forgive me if this is too much of a tangent, but I’m deeply concerned with where my generation and the generation to follow seem to be placing their priorities. I know generations are, well, general, but to follow the opinion polls and policy moves, we’re now including among civil rights the right to an abortion and the right to free sexual license (note that the two are often correlated). As Scoobyshme said, the I is the most damning letter because it distorts the focus away from God and to the individual. Abortion is selfish (and mortally so), just as is sexual licentiousness because it demands that nothing - not even morality - should stand in the way of personal pleasure. I’ve even started to see this in some of the non-denom churches around here. They somehow manage to convey God’s love and God’s holiness in such a way that the believer is the center, not the believed in. They may be leading their flocks to Christ, but it’s a Jesus that’s almost too personal, almost less of a deity than of a rationalizer. “I’m baptized, it doesn’t matter what I do because Calvary covers my sins” etc.

How do you tell a basic human right from one that is a convenient and popular one? Give it the ultimate test - are you willing to give your life in defense of our country so that poor children can receive education, health care and food? Probably you are. Are you willing to give your life in defense of our country so people can have sex with whomever they want whenever they mutually agree it’s a good idea? Makes you think, doesn’t it?

The Bible lists a number of sins . They can be found in 1Cor.6;9-11 See verse 19-20 also.
It isn’t easy being a christian, is it?
We all have our cross to bear.
See Rom.1:24-32 Sexual sins are just one of the sins we must repent of.
Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery,(Jn.8:3) “go and sin no more.”
I always found this strange, the man isn’t mentioned that she had this illicit affair with.
But then Jesus did say to the Jews who were ready to stone her, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.’ they all dropped their stones and left.

bluelake

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Condoms are not 100%, but they would cut it down, there is nobody who is gonna practice abstinence. Look at the countries where babies are skin & bone & the parents are too, but they keep having babies. Sex drive is too strong for most of the world population

That’s not a catholic view. That’s erroneous and an insult to humans elsewhere. Living in a poor country doesn’t mean you have to go childless. God provides. PERIOD.

 

[Lauds]

That’s not a catholic view. That’s erroneous and an insult to humans elsewhere. Living in a poor country doesn’t mean you have to go childless. God provides. PERIOD.

Look at the living conditions in poor countries & around the world, God helps those who help themselves, better to use a condom then to conceive another child that will probably starve to death. WE do not know the mind of God or what he has in store for each & every one of his Children. Look at the amount of catholics who weekly sit in Church using artificial means of birth control. Tell me how many Catholics live the catholic view, very few, cultural catholics they are in name only. There is sin, Thats why God sent his son, Christ came for the unjust, not the just, the just had no need of him

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Look at the living conditions in poor countries & around the world, God helps those who help themselves, better to use a condom then to conceive another child that will probably starve to death. WE do not know the mind of God or what he has in store for each & every one of his Children. Look at the amount of catholics who weekly sit in Church using artificial means of birth control. Tell me how many Catholics live the catholic view, very few, cultural catholics they are in name only. There is sin, Thats why God sent his son, Christ came for the unjust, not the just, the just had no need of him

You have no faith or trust in God if you truly believe that. Your beliefs are not those of catholics. We do know God always wants us to be open to life. Condoms are not open to life. Those who wish that these in poor countries would use condoms have no trust in God and/or they hold a belief in eugenics…one or both. Just because some people sit in church and don’t believe as the catholic church believes doesn’t mean they’re catholic. A satanist could sit in a catholic church if he wanted to…they’re known as CNOs-catholics in name only.

You must surround yourself with false catholics. I know most catholics I know are faithful catholics, i.e. they worthily partake in the sacraments and go to holy Mass each Sunday.

Yeah, God came for the just. That’s a protestant mantra. It’s not catholic. I wonder if you’re a fundamentalist evangelical…Your views are similar, especially your quotes. Yes, God came for the unjust, but the unjust have to confess their sins, do penance, and resolve not to sin again.

You must believe in the religious doctrine of an Orthodox Jew to be an Orthodox Jew. Similarly, you must believe in all the Magisterium teaches to be a catholic. You are either catholic, or you’re not. You either accept the Magisterium’s stance or you don’t. You can’t be in the middle. It’s one thing to be ignorant, but it’s quite another to disregard certain teachings brought forth by the magisterium.

 

[Lauds]

You have no faith or trust in God if you truly believe that. Your beliefs are not those of catholics. We do know God always wants us to be open to life. Condoms are not open to life. Those who wish that these in poor countries would use condoms have no trust in God and/or they hold a belief in eugenics…one or both. Just because some people sit in church and don’t believe as the catholic church believes doesn’t mean they’re catholic. A satanist could sit in a catholic church if he wanted to…they’re known as CNOs-catholics in name only.

You must surround yourself with false catholics. I know most catholics I know are faithful catholics, i.e. they worthily partake in the sacraments and go to holy Mass each Sunday.

Yeah, God came for the just. That’s a protestant mantra. It’s not catholic. I wonder if you’re a fundamentalist evangelical…Your views are similar, especially your quotes. Yes, God came for the unjust, but the unjust have to confess their sins, do penance, and resolve not to sin again.

You must believe in the religious doctrine of an Orthodox Jew to be an Orthodox Jew. Similarly, you must believe in all the Magisterium teaches to be a catholic. You are either catholic, or you’re not. You either accept the Magisterium’s stance or you don’t. You can’t be in the middle. It’s one thing to be ignorant, but it’s quite another to disregard certain teachings brought forth by the magisterium.

I am a practicing Catholic, imperfect tho I am, but realistic also. Don`t bury your head in the sand about the problems of the world which can be lesseened by the use of condoms, even some priests agree

 

[Highwayhound]

I am a practicing Catholic, imperfect tho I am, but realistic also. Don`t bury your head in the sand about the problems of the world which can be lesseened by the use of condoms, even some priests agree

Are you aware of the various diseases that are not stopped by the use of condoms?

HPV or Human Papillomavirus a.k.a genital warts is a disease transmitted by skin to skin contact. Unless you are suggesting people use full body condoms there ain’t no condom that will prevent HPV transmission. Genital warts - now there is a pretty picture to imagine when a young man asks a young woman for her hand in marriage.

There are more than 40 types of HPV some of which cause cervical cancer.

Chlamydia is caused by a bacteria and you might not know you have it. The CDC recommends abstaining from sex as the best way to prevent this infection. They state that condoms can reduce the risk of transmission, but are not 100% effective. This disease can lead to premature deliveries and babies can be born with infections in their eyes and resiratory tracts. It is the leading cause of infant pneumonia.

Chlamydia shows no symptons in 75% of the women that have it. It can cause a woman to become sterile. How about that? Now would a woman really want to risk sterility because of condoms? Time to get married after a youthful life of “free love” and she might not be able to have a family. I know I would not be comfortable telling someone to use a condom with this basic knowledge.

Men, Chlamydia will give you a burning when urinating, but the good news is that it is uncommon to have pain or swelling in the testicles.

Those are only 2 of the many STDs.

God bless

p.s. Oral sex? Chlamydia is found in throats, too. Go CONDOMS!!

 

[Lauds]

Are you aware of the various diseases that are not stopped by the use of condoms?

HPV or Human Papillomavirus a.k.a genital warts is a disease transmitted by skin to skin contact. Unless you are suggesting people use full body condoms there ain’t no condom that will prevent HPV transmission. Genital warts - now there is a pretty picture to imagine when a young man asks a young woman for her hand in marriage.

There are more than 40 types of HPV some of which cause cervical cancer.

Chlamydia is caused by a bacteria and you might not know you have it. The CDC recommends abstaining from sex as the best way to prevent this infection. They state that condoms can reduce the risk of transmission, but are not 100% effective. This disease can lead to premature deliveries and babies can be born with infections in their eyes and resiratory tracts. It is the leading cause of infant pneumonia.

Chlamydia shows no symptons in 75% of the women that have it. It can cause a woman to become sterile. How about that? Now would a woman really want to risk sterility because of condoms? Time to get married after a youthful life of “free love” and she might not be able to have a family. I know I would not be comfortable telling someone to use a condom with this basic knowledge.

Men, Chlamydia will give you a burning when urinating, but the good news is that it is uncommon to have pain or swelling in the testicles.

Those are only 2 of the many STDs.

God bless

p.s. Oral sex? Chlamydia is found in throats, too. Go CONDOMS!!

Condoms have been used for yrs & yrs, in a lot of cases they were effective, in others they weren`t just like the percentage of other products we have, condoms if used properly can reduce STD & Pregnancy. When I was younger, all the teen age boys who were sexually active used condoms & still do most of them. But if not used properly they can fail, they are better than nothing. I would rather give my sexually active kid a condom rather than be more prone to getting a disease, or conceiving a child he will most likely not be able to support. I think condoms are better than conceiving & then aborting, condoms are the lesser evil . Face facts, no matter what the church says, people are going to have sex, there are not many married or single who are willing to abstain

 

[losh14]

I always found this strange, the man isn’t mentioned that she had this illicit affair with.
But then Jesus did say to the Jews who were ready to stone her, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.’ they all dropped their stones and left.

bluelake

I like to think that what made them walk away, one by one, is that Jesus was writing their names in the sand, one by one. But that’s just a personal interpretation.

 

[OraLabora]

Telling someone to use a condom if they’re going to have promiscuous sex is like telling someone to go play russian roulette.

I imagine that if you were told that there was a 1 in 10 chance that the plane will crash when you go flying and that maybe you’ll survive, or may be not, you might opt to take the train.

Oddly, people have no problems with similar odds for condoms.

 

[Lauds]

Telling someone to use a condom if they’re going to have promiscuous sex is like telling someone to go play russian roulette.

I imagine that if you were told that there was a 1 in 10 chance that the plane will crash when you go flying and that maybe you’ll survive, or may be not, you might opt to take the train.

Oddly, people have no problems with similar odds for condoms.

a plane crash & the amount of young people having sex at very young ages , there is no comparison. Babies are having babies, 50% of babies are born out of wedlock , every 23 seconds another abortion is performed. These people are not going to stop having sex, it would be foolish to think that, so better to use a condom with some success rather than nothing.Church or not, have to use common sense

 

[PaulinVA]

a plane crash & the amount of young people having sex at very young ages , there is no comparison. Babies are having babies, 50% of babies are born out of wedlock , every 23 seconds another abortion is performed. These people are not going to stop having sex, it would be foolish to think that, so better to use a condom with some success rather than nothing.Church or not, have to use common sense

If we as humans can not overcome our urges in the sexual area and exercise discipline, how can we be expected to exercise discipline in any other area?

Conversely, if we as humans can exercise restraint in our daily lives in other activities, why shouldn’t we exercise restraint in the area of chastity?

I reject the thought process that arrives at the idea that to reduce the number of babies born out of wedlock, born to teenagers, that we need urge people to have “protected” or “responsible” sex.

The natural consequence of having sex is making a baby; we can try to thwart that natural consequence, but don’t be surprised when it happens!

 

[Lauds]

If we as humans can not overcome our urges in the sexual area and exercise discipline, how can we be expected to exercise discipline in any other area?

Conversely, if we as humans can exercise restraint in our daily lives in other activities, why shouldn’t we exercise restraint in the area of chastity?

I reject the thought process that arrives at the idea that to reduce the number of babies born out of wedlock, born to teenagers, that we need urge people to have “protected” or “responsible” sex.

The natural consequence of having sex is making a baby; we can try to thwart that natural consequence, but don’t be surprised when it happens!

WEll I think You have your head in the sand, our young children are sexually active at very young ages, once they get a taste of sex, they arent likely to stop. Parents cannot watch over their children 24/7 & those who say they can deceive themselves. Young people are having sex, I am not saying its good, not at all, but they are having it non the less, give them protection they need it. If it takes a condom, so be it

 

[kage_ar]

Young people who have a strong moral code, who practice their Faith and who have a deep relationship with Christ are not having sex.

Even if your kid does decide to sin, as a Christian, you cannot encourage them in that sin.

 

[baylee]

I like to think that what made them walk away, one by one, is that Jesus was writing their names in the sand, one by one. But that’s just a personal interpretation.

I never thought of that…very interesting indeed.

 

[Lauds]

Young people who have a strong moral code, who practice their Faith and who have a deep relationship with Christ are not having sex.

Even if your kid does decide to sin, as a Christian, you cannot encourage them in that sin.

Truthfully , how many of those are around, not many at all & if You are living in the real world, you know that. I am not for our young people having sex at all, I dont know why they think it is their right, & they do, & some parents agree with it, I am not for it, but it is what it is. It certainly would be much better if they could contain themselves, but most cannot. I dont live in a vacuum

 

[baylee]

Young people who have a strong moral code, who practice their Faith and who have a deep relationship with Christ are not having sex.

How do you know this?

 

[PassingThru]

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I think others probably have the same issue I do. To me, its not so much about belief or theology, but more about realistic expectations. I see little hope in taking a population that is non-Catholic, or non-Christian, and relying on our morals and religious ethics to protect them from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. To me, that is a tough sell to change whatever culture or morals that is inherent in the population, introduce new morals, and rely on that to save lives.

We try that a ton here in the US, with captive and in many cases already-believing populations, and to my knowledge get middling results at best. And that is within our own culture, religion and households! Did anyone see that documentary on the school that has a huge push for abstinence only education yet a huge portion of the school is pregnant? (Not the one with the “pregnancy pact”, it was a different school) I am not saying it doesn’t work, but its results don’t seem to change in a very predictable way when it is used. Young people (meaning less than say 25, not just young teens) seem to seek out and have sexual encounters in all cultures, which makes sense. Whenever I hear someone say “yes, but here in (our country/our church/our school/our community) we don’t have this problem”, what I hear in my head is “my head is in the sand, and I am unaware of what is happening around me”. 9 out of 10 times, the problem is just as bad, but being hidden very well. Sneaky kids!

Look at it this way. Even within the Catholic community, 80-90% of couples elect to ignore Catholic teachings. Yet we think we can convince a continent of non-Catholics something we can not convince ourselves? Now, it is a very different group of course (married adults in this case) but the point still stands. I just don’t think it is a probable solution.

I approach it this way. If it was my responsibility to save as many lives as possible, and my families life hinged on achieving this goal, I don’t think “abstinence only” would be my first pick. I would imagine “put this condom on and you won’t die” would be a more successful strategy then “don’t have sex”. I think the people that have this responsibility look at the numerical side over the moral side. Which, to me makes sense. They are in charge of saving lives, not saving souls. Not saying that is more important, but that is the fact of the matter.