Led Zeppelin Satanic?

[Lost_Wanderer]

LOTR has characters in it who use magic. Therefore some antichristian (satanic) undertones to it. I think we all need to be realistic and objective concerning the things we take into our minds and hearts. Many books and movies have christian themes. The matrix, the green mile, heck even terminator has a saviour of the world theme running. Does that make any of these movies christian movies? No. Because the creator of LOTR was a catholic and the book has christian themes and we love the books and/or movie, some of us take it all wholesale as a “christian” publication.

So if LOTR is so christian where is Jesus even mentioned or God? If it’s so christian why are magicians, wizards and magic the saviours of the day instead of Jesus? I’m sorry but LOTR is no christian novel. Us catholics and most other christians are so desparate to have some representation in popular culture that we cling to anything that appears to be even mildly affiliated with christianity. Whether the author is christian or the story has some biblical parallels that does not baptise the work itself as christian.

Not only is this ridiculous but this is extremely off topic. If you want to discuss the use of magic in fiction, I can take you to thread where I’d be glad to discuss with you.

And for the record, the only people I know that limit the definition of what defines the work as “Christian” to anything that has explicitly the words God, Jesus etc are uptight fundamentalists. One does not have to make explicit depictions of Christian and Biblical figures for it to have Christian themes.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Kinja, he was a Catholic lol.
He was raised by a Catholic priest, so he was most definitely informed on Catholic beliefs and practices. And what’s more, the guy went to Church everyday.

But i don’t see why you people are fighting to have these stories labeled “Christian”. A book is Christian if it is about Christ or His followers. Period.

They are not “Christian”, just stories “appropriate for Christian readers”.

Actually a more proper term for them is that they have strong Christian allegories and themes. That’s why people call them Christian. You can embody Christian ideology and morality without limiting to yourself to making Bible picture books for children.

 

[Joe_5859]

Here’s some nice Tolkien quotes:

“Out of the darkness of my life, so much frustrated, I put before you the one great thing to love on earth: the Blessed Sacrament. There you will find romance, glory, honour, fidelity, and the true way of all your loves on earth.”

and

“The only cure for sagging or fainting faith is Communion. Though always Itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of Faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals.”

You’re right, Kinja. I’m not sure how important the Catholic faith was to Tolkien. He was probably just going through the motions.

 

[tomarin]

I admit I have never been a fan of Tolkein though I’m sure he is a good writer. My point is not how much of a Catholic he is. Being a devout catholic as far as your religious observances is concerned doesn’t necessarily mean that one is living a life in Christ. What I mean to say is this. There are Catholics who let their kids trick or treat on halloween or who won’t stop to help an old dirty man who has fallen on the sidewalk, or who live their lives doing other things outside their religious practices which are not acceptable for any true believer to participate in.

I think whether Tolkien can be described as a devout catholic or not is a bit of a red herring so I’m not going to debate that – if you don’t accept that Narnia is a Christian book then I don’t know what you would accept as “proof” that Tolkien was a good Catholic. I think you’re forcing yourself into untenable positions because you have no coherent response to my original objection, which is that defining satanism as anything not Christian is so broad as to make that definition meaningless. The fact that you cannot accept two of the most beloved writers of Christian fiction as Christian confirms that your definition of satanism is absurdly, untenably broad.

 

[kinja]

I think whether Tolkien can be described as a devout catholic or not is a bit of a red herring so I’m not going to debate that – if you don’t accept that Narnia is a Christian book then I don’t know what you would accept as “proof” that Tolkien was a good Catholic. I think you’re forcing yourself into untenable positions because you have no coherent response to my original objection, which is that defining satanism as anything not Christian is so broad as to make that definition meaningless. The fact that you cannot accept two of the most beloved writers of Christian fiction as Christian confirms that your definition of satanism is absurdly, untenably broad.

I would never describe anyone as a good catholic. Only our Lord can call anyone a good anything. He alone can see in our hearts. Actions and words prove nothing and can both change as easily as the weather. With respect to your apparent lack of knowledge of what satanism is, you should know that satanism is alive in even in our churches, schools and workplaces. Yes it is a broad based religion which has more to do with worshipping self (self centeredness) that worshipping any other entity.

Read John 8:41-44. You will notice that Jesus calls the religious of of the day sons of satan. That would make them satanists would it not, since sons of God are called christians? Jesus said that the path to destruction is wide and many go down it but the path to salvation is narrow. Therefore the net that satan has set is very wide indeed. This is why a satanic mindset does not require worship of satan it just requires us to do satan’s will. Like I said satanism is about self worship.

 

[BrooklynBoy200]

Actually a more proper term for them is that they have strong Christian allegories and themes. That’s why people call them Christian. You can embody Christian ideology and morality without limiting to yourself to making Bible picture books for children.

true, but does having Christian morality and ideology make a book Christian? You could find that in a lot of books that would not necessarily be “Christian”.
Christian morality is almost identical to the morality of pretty much every other religion in existence.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

true, but does having Christian morality and ideology make a book Christian? You could find that in a lot of books that would not necessarily be “Christian”.
Christian morality is almost identical to the morality of pretty much every other religion in existence.

It depends on how much of the ideology is present and noticeable to the majority. Let’s use common sense here.

A lot of people have been able to see parallels between Jesus and Aslan.
Lewis himself was a pretty prominent Christian Theologian.

Putting two and two together, it’s only logical to believe that a book penned by a Christian Apologist, has parallels to Christianity in terms of allegory and the morality of the characters, and even represents the “enemies” of Christianity rather accurately in its antagonists, would in fact be deemed a Christian book.

It’s no different than if I were to take the plot and moral in The Good Samaritan but put in a different setting, change the profession of the characters somewhat, and have them speak Japanese instead of English.

Either way, it’s still strongly Christian.

 

[tomarin]

With respect to your apparent lack of knowledge of what satanism is, you should know that satanism is alive in even in our churches, schools and workplaces. Yes it is a broad based religion which has more to do with worshipping self (self centeredness) that worshipping any other entity.

I hear what you’re saying, and I agree that worship of self is bad because is contradicts the first commandment. But keep in mind that even if Satan were constrained or eliminated, there would still be worship of self because of original sin. Therefore it doesn’t necessarily follow that every instance of self-worship is worship of Satan.

I also think that if you make Satan the author of every evil act (as you seem inclined to do) you elevate him to the status of a deity. Christians don’t believe Satan is a deity; we believe he’s a fallen angel who has only the powers that God gave to angels. Followers of the heresy known as Manicheanism believe that the devil is a rival god to God.

 

[hassenpfeffer]

I know this thread is somewhat old, but I just did a bit of research on the subject based on comments by a trusted friend and just happened upon this thread. What I found was honestly not all that shocking, based on a simple look at the bands artwork, Jimmy Paige’s own comments, and the lyrics themselves. Just to give you a quick and obvious example, look at the lyrics to “Houses of the Holy”:

"Let me take you to the movies. can I take you to the show
Let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow

From the houses of the holy, we can watch the white doves go
From the door comes satans daughter, and it only goes to show. you know.

Theres an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold
Let me wander in your garden. and the seeds of love Ill sow. you know.

So the world is spinning faster. are you dizzy when youre stoned
Let the music be your master. will you heed the masters call
Oh… satan and man.

Said there aint no use in crying. cause it will only, only drive you mad
Does it hurt to hear them lying? was this the only world you had? oh-oh

So let me take you, take you to the movie. can I take you, baby, to the show.
Why dont you let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow
You know."

That’s merely one example of the depravity of some of their songs (and this is one of the more blatant examples, which I find less harmful than the lyrics that are more hardcore but also very ambiguous to the average person who doesn’t understand satanism). Couple this with what Paige himself has stated, and you have a no brainer on your hands. The band members were satanic in some way shape or form, and their personal beliefs spilled over into their art.

This much is obvious. What truly shocked me, however, were some of the posts of utter denial on here. To the poster “Worthy5”, I’m sure you find it amusing to constantly update us with your playlist (smile back at me after you dissect Houses of the Holy). Why must you persist in defending them when they don’t even bother hiding the truth from anyone? Do a bit of research and don’t be so dismissive of everything you read. If you don’t believe Paige (and company) was given his talent directly by the devil himself, fine. I don’t either. But he was about as diametrically opposed to good Christian values as one can be.

Led Zepplin has several songs that are undoubtedly pleasing to the ears, and I recognize this. But your faith is more important than any song, band, or even music as a whole. Lets apply a bit of common sense here: would you be able to recommend to someone, in good conscience, a song like “Houses of the Holy”? Does it not make you feel the least bit uneasy that the lead vocalist was heavily involved in the occult? Does the imagery in the albums not haunt you?

If you answer yes to any of those, then don’t defend or promote it. Even if you yourself won’t stop listening to it or are struggling not to, at the very least, spare other people from it. God knows they get influenced enough by enticing sinful pleasures without recommendation from good Christians!

 

[BrooklynBoy200]

First of all, the lead singer of Zeppelin was not into the occult at all.
Jimmy Page, the only member of Zeppelin who has had any connection to the occult, was the guitarist.

And sure that’s one song that has references to Satan. But what about songs like Stairway to Heaven, where the overall message is that material wealth won’t get you to Heaven?

I’m just saying, being a fan of the band doesn’t mean you have to listen to every single one of their songs or agree with everything they believe.

 

[Worthy5]

QUOTE=hassenpfeffer;5864211]I know this thread is somewhat old, but I just did a bit of research on the subject based on comments by a trusted friend and just happened upon this thread. What I found was honestly not all that shocking, based on a simple look at the bands artwork, Jimmy Paige’s own comments, and the lyrics themselves. Just to give you a quick and obvious example, look at the lyrics to “Houses of the Holy”:

"Let me take you to the movies. can I take you to the show
Let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow

From the houses of the holy, we can watch the white doves go
From the door comes satans daughter, and it only goes to show. you know.

Theres an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold
Let me wander in your garden. and the seeds of love Ill sow. you know.

So the world is spinning faster. are you dizzy when youre stoned
Let the music be your master. will you heed the masters call
Oh… satan and man.

Said there aint no use in crying. cause it will only, only drive you mad
Does it hurt to hear them lying? was this the only world you had? oh-oh

So let me take you, take you to the movie. can I take you, baby, to the show.
Why dont you let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow
You know."

That’s merely one example of the depravity of some of their songs (and this is one of the more blatant examples, which I find less harmful than the lyrics that are more hardcore but also very ambiguous to the average person who doesn’t understand satanism). Couple this with what Paige himself has stated, and you have a no brainer on your hands. The band members were satanic in some way shape or form, and their personal beliefs spilled over into their art.

This much is obvious. What truly shocked me, however, were some of the posts of utter denial on here. To the poster “Worthy5”, I’m sure you find it amusing to constantly update us with your playlist (smile back at me after you dissect Houses of the Holy). Why must you persist in defending them when they don’t even bother hiding the truth from anyone? Do a bit of research and don’t be so dismissive of everything you read. If you don’t believe Paige (and company) was given his talent directly by the devil himself, fine. I don’t either. But he was about as diametrically opposed to good Christian values as one can be.

Led Zepplin has several songs that are undoubtedly pleasing to the ears, and I recognize this. But your faith is more important than any song, band, or even music as a whole. Lets apply a bit of common sense here: would you be able to recommend to someone, in good conscience, a song like “Houses of the Holy”? Does it not make you feel the least bit uneasy that the lead vocalist was heavily involved in the occult? Does the imagery in the albums not haunt you?

If you answer yes to any of those, then don’t defend or promote it. Even if you yourself won’t stop listening to it or are struggling not to, at the very least, spare other people from it. God knows they get influenced enough by enticing sinful pleasures without recommendation from good Christians!

Thanks

 

[BrooklynBoy200]

And also, just because something says “Satan” in it, doesn’t mean it’s satanic. There are probably quite a few Church documents that state the name.

“Houses of the Holy” has had many translations, ranging from hatred of women to condemnation of cults.

 

[Worthy5]

[Q

UOTE=hassenpfeffer;5864211]I know this thread is somewhat old, but I just did a bit of research on the subject based on comments by a trusted friend and just happened upon this thread. What I found was honestly not all that shocking, based on a simple look at the bands artwork, Jimmy Paige’s own comments, and the lyrics themselves. Just to give you a quick and obvious example, look at the lyrics to “Houses of the Holy”:

"Let me take you to the movies. can I take you to the show
Let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow

From the houses of the holy, we can watch the white doves go
From the door comes satans daughter, and it only goes to show. you know.

Theres an angel on my shoulder, in my hand a sword of gold
Let me wander in your garden. and the seeds of love Ill sow. you know.

So the world is spinning faster. are you dizzy when youre stoned
Let the music be your master. will you heed the masters call
Oh… satan and man.

Said there aint no use in crying. cause it will only, only drive you mad
Does it hurt to hear them lying? was this the only world you had? oh-oh

So let me take you, take you to the movie. can I take you, baby, to the show.
Why dont you let me be yours ever truly. can I make your garden grow
You know."

That’s merely one example of the depravity of some of their songs (and this is one of the more blatant examples, which I find less harmful than the lyrics that are more hardcore but also very ambiguous to the average person who doesn’t understand satanism). Couple this with what Paige himself has stated, and you have a no brainer on your hands. The band members were satanic in some way shape or form, and their personal beliefs spilled over into their art.

This much is obvious. What truly shocked me, however, were some of the posts of utter denial on here. To the poster “Worthy5”, I’m sure you find it amusing to constantly update us with your playlist (smile back at me after you dissect Houses of the Holy). Why must you persist in defending them when they don’t even bother hiding the truth from anyone? Do a bit of research and don’t be so dismissive of everything you read. If you don’t believe Paige (and company) was given his talent directly by the devil himself, fine. I don’t either. But he was about as diametrically opposed to good Christian values as one can be.

Led Zepplin has several songs that are undoubtedly pleasing to the ears, and I recognize this. But your faith is more important than any song, band, or even music as a whole. Lets apply a bit of common sense here: would you be able to recommend to someone, in good conscience, a song like “Houses of the Holy”? Does it not make you feel the least bit uneasy that the lead vocalist was heavily involved in the occult? Does the imagery in the albums not haunt you?

If you answer yes to any of those, then don’t defend or promote it. Even if you yourself won’t stop listening to it or are struggling not to, at the very least, spare other people from it. God knows they get influenced enough by enticing sinful pleasures without recommendation from good Christians!

Again thanks my friend, I sang along when I read the lyrics…" You know ohhhhhh" LOL. Have some fun my friend and with all due respect you have no position to tell me what role my faith has in my life.

One thing to keep in mind, much of what is written by musicians really does not mean what people claim it to mean. Many sources say the Houses of the Holy mean, lyrically, the song is an ode to Led Zeppelin concerts, with the “Houses of the Holy” referring to the arenas and auditoriums in which the band performed. It refers to the spiritual feel of their concerts.

The fact that Satan is mentioned is seen by many as a way for the group to be enigmatic with the lyrics (so people talk about it) and controversal to sell ablums. Okay, and is anything we see on TV these days not filled with titillating stuff-----from sex all the way to ridiculous conspiracy theories to just plain speech full of scorn and hate.

It is not the music that is the problem, it is how one uses it. And there the Church teachings on moderation come into play. Just like alcohol–in moderation. If you spend large amounts of time infatuated and engaged in the “culture of consumption” then problems begin. Next up " Going to California"

And BTW, Robert Plant the singer was not involved in the occult but rather most sources say it was Jimmy Page the guitarist. And no, I would have no problem telling someone to enjoy the music. But given how much their music is played people do not need me as their source. It is a free country, I mind my own business, people can listen to what they want.

 

[John_of_Woking]

[Q

Again thanks my friend, I sang along when I read the lyrics…" You know ohhhhhh" LOL. Have some fun my friend and with all due respect you have no position to tell me what role my faith has in my life.

One thing to keep in mind, much of what is written by musicians really does not mean what people claim it to mean. Many sources say the Houses of the Holy mean, lyrically, the song is an ode to Led Zeppelin concerts, with the “Houses of the Holy” referring to the arenas and auditoriums in which the band performed. It refers to the spiritual feel of their concerts.

The fact that Satan is mentioned is seen by many as a way for the group to be enigmatic with the lyrics (so people talk about it) and controversal to sell ablums. Okay, and is anything we see on TV these days not filled with titillating stuff-----from sex all the way to ridiculous conspiracy theories to just plain speech full of scorn and hate.

It is not the music that is the problem, it is how one uses it. And there the Church teachings on moderation come into play. Just like alcohol–in moderation. If you spend large amounts of time infatuated and engaged in the “culture of consumption” then problems begin. Next up " Going to California"

And BTW, Robert Plant the singer was not involved in the occult but rather most sources say it was Jimmy Page the guitarist. And no, I would have no problem telling someone to enjoy the music. But given how much their music is played people do not need me as their source. It is a free country, I mind my own business, people can listen to what they want.
[/quote]

A mind changed against the will is of the same opinion still.
I beleive you are trying to ignore the elephant in the room but you are not alone… There is some seriously infernal content in Led Z…

By the way for what its worth there’s plenty of better stuff that has been written in more recent time by bands such as Radiohead, Sigur Ros etc however even some of their material is dubious…

I digress… and hopefully I am not being too hypocritical .

What I would submit is that every book I have read by an exorcist (such as Amorth, Davies) suggests that a lot of contemporary music is **saturated **in demonic influence. I don’t think we should turn away from such hard truths that are hard to stomach…Maybe we (and I include myself obviously)should pray about this and ask whether God wants us to listen to this music…Are we willing to sacrifice the pleasure we gain from this music and offer it up as an act of charity??? I dunno…maybe it’d be woth trying for lent.

 

[hassenpfeffer]

Allow me to ask you this: is Alester Crowley a man of good character? Is he someone that a Christian should look up to? Because Jimmy Paige was so enamored with him that he went as far as to buy his house. In addition, his mantra of “Do What Thou Wilt” is emblazoned on the CD art of one of Zep’s albums. From Wikipedia:

“The first pressings of the album included the phrases “Do what thou wilt” and “So mote it be”, inscribed on the lacquer itself by engineer Terry Manning during the final mastering process. This phrase is from the core tenet of Aleister Crowley’s philosophy of Thelema: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will. There is no law beyond do what thou wilt.” Page was a scholar of Crowley’s work, once owning a private collection of Crowley manuscripts, artwork and other ephemera, and in the 1970s even bought one of his residences, Boleskine House on the shores of Loch Ness in Scotland.”

Crowley was as big an enemy to Christianity as anyone. You can dismiss the lyrics because there are multiple potential “translations” (many of them dubious, to say the least), but is it so hard to believe that Paige, who studies a man who hates Christianity, would be above slipping Crowley’s messages into his songs? Take Stairway to Heaven, for example. Yes, May Queen may refer to a number of things. Crowley, however, transformed it into something absolutely horrifying. Same with “the piper will lead us to reason”, which has biblical connotations as well as a poem by Crowley (Link). I would not put slipping satanic messages above a man that owns more of Crowley’s literature than anyone else, lives in his house, and practices his black magick. You’d be a bit naive to think otherwise. I believe it is far too convenient to be mere coincidence.

By the way, he also was commissioned to write music for Kenneth Anger’s film “Lucifer Rising,” which eventually went to someone else for various reasons. He had composed a bit, however.

Another quote I pulled up after a quick bit of research:
Jimmy on Aleister Crowley:

“My house used to belong to Aleister Crowley. I knew that when I moved in. Magick’s very important if people can go through it. I think Crowley’s completely relevant today. We’re still searching for the truth. The search goes on. Crowley didn’t have a very high opinion of women and I don’t think he was wrong. Playing music is a very high sexual act. It’s an emotional release and the sexual drive comes in along with all the other impulses. But once you start earning money people start assuming things about you and your whole life is changed. If I wasn’t into rock I would be somewhere living in a commune in Wales.”

Indeed, he didn’t believe in everything taught by Crowley. But isn’t practicing Black Magick, at the absolute least, enough?

 

[BrooklynBoy200]

Crowley was as big an enemy to Christianity as anyone. You can dismiss the lyrics because there are multiple potential “translations” (many of them dubious, to say the least), but is it so hard to believe that Paige, who studies a man who hates Christianity, would be above slipping Crowley’s messages into his songs? Take Stairway to Heaven, for example. Yes, May Queen may refer to a number of things. Crowley, however, transformed it into something absolutely horrifying. Same with “the piper will lead us to reason”, which has biblical connotations as well as a poem by Crowley (Link). I would not put slipping satanic messages above a man that owns more of Crowley’s literature than anyone else, lives in his house, and practices his black magick. You’d be a bit naive to think otherwise. I believe it is far too convenient to be mere coincidence.

Jimmy Page didn’t write the lyrics!
Can somebody please just take a second and read this!?
For some reason it is just not sticking with anybody…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

O.K. Michael you have just given me the biggest laugh of all on CAF yet with the link to Dschinghis Khan Moskau. The link didn’t work but I googled and found them on Youtube. Now that is Pure Gold At first I was not sure of the spelling but now I get it. A German Boney-M type band with a Slavic sounding song and its lead singer doing steps from the Hopak. Triple AAA!! LOL

Sorry about that link - I wonder why it didn’t work. Thanks for the kind words ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Based on the definition of satanism paganism I think most forms of paganism definitely have alot of antichistian (i.e. satanic) elements in them. That said I do think that anyone who practices magic (whether white or black flavors) is using dark forces (demons, demonic powers) to effect physical change in the physical world. It’s like holding hands with the devil.

LOTR has characters in it who use magic. Therefore some antichristian (satanic) undertones to it. I think we all need to be realistic and objective concerning the things we take into our minds and hearts. Many books and movies have christian themes. The matrix, the green mile, heck even terminator has a saviour of the world theme running. Does that make any of these movies christian movies? No. Because the creator of LOTR was a catholic and the book has christian themes and we love the books and/or movie, some of us take it all wholesale as a “christian” publication.

So if LOTR is so christian where is Jesus even mentioned or God? If it’s so christian why are magicians, wizards and magic the saviours of the day instead of Jesus? I’m sorry but LOTR is no christian novel. Us catholics and most other christians are so desparate to have some representation in popular culture that we cling to anything that appears to be even mildly affiliated with christianity. Whether the author is christian or the story has some biblical parallels that does not baptise the work itself as christian.

It’s possible to write a corrupting and foul book which mentions Jesus all the time. TLOTR is a good book that does not mention Him; for a variety of reasons.​

• 1. Tolkien had too much artistic tact as a story-teller to inflict explicit Christian theology on his readers; that sort of heavy-handedness is a sign of a bad artist.
• 1. Within the world of the story, the events are set thousands of years before the coming of Christ; it is not about him, but about a late stage in the history of the Elves. There is no reason for the story or the book to refer to Him. The Elves are not Christians or Jews - they live far earlier than that.
• 1. It is not quite true that God is not mentioned. TLOTR cannot be fully understood without knowledge of the Silmarillion, and, to a lesser degree, Unfinished Tales. The Sil covers the period from the creation to the end of the Third Age, & has plenty of divine figures in it. It would take a very long time to explain, however. Suffice it to say that the Valar or Powers mentioned by Gandalf at the coronation of Aragorn appear frequently in the Sil, and are quasi-angelic demiurgic powers who create Arda, the earth, being themselves the creations of Eru Iluvatar, who is the literary “version” in that “fictive world” of God - much in the way that Aslan the great Lion “is” Christ in the “fictive world” of Narnia. By mentioning the Valar, Gandalf implies Eru Who created them. As in real life, God is present without being an agent in the action, except at certain moments: in the Sil, He destroys the island of Numenor, and causes a gigantic flood, which has very marked effects on the physical structure of Arda. This is only my guess, but, seeing that the destruction of the Barad-dur of Sauron is described in language that echoes the words describing the destruction of Numenor, it seems likely that it is also Eru Who destroys the Barad-dur - if so, He would be an agent in the action of TLOTR.

And TLOTR is not a novel - despite a widespread impression to the contrary. It’s an epic romance, as C.S. Lewis, a Christian who admired it greatly, clearly saw.

I like the story, not because I can’t tell the difference between Christ & Aslan, God & Eru, the Primary World of everyday life & the Secondary World of imagined facts, but because I can tell the difference between them By immersing the things of the PW in the life of the SW, Tolkien (and God working through Tolkien, as is true in any work of “sub-creation”) makes the things of the PW more real. The supreme example of this is the Incarnation and all that follows from it - so a story-teller such as Lewis or Tolkien is following the logic of the Incarnation. Their stories don’t have to proclaim their Christianity, for these stories are Christian in their internal logic. Jesus did not go around trumpeting Who He was - He got on with being & acting as Who He was: just as we should.

 

[KIKINWING]

I suggest that anyone who doesnt think that Led Zepplin was a tool of the Devil simply back mask, That is play “Stairway to Heaven” in reverse. It says loud and clear “Hail Satan” over and over again… There is NO way that this could of been done than by demonic influence.

avrtech.com/LedZep/

FORWARD
If there’s a bustle in your hedge row don’t be alarmed now
It’s just a spring clean for the may queen
Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There’s still time to change the road you’re on.
REVERSED/BACKMASKED
Glory, oh here’s to my sweet satan
The one little child would make me sad whose power is satan
He’ll give those in him 666
And all the evil fools they know he made us suffer sad satan

ENOUGH SAID…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How is Aslan a true deity exactly? If you think that because of his role he symolizes Jesus and the fact that he is a lion emphasizes the Lion of Judah of scriptures, it can go both ways.

Because he has created a world in which there are Talking Beasts, just as he himself is a Talking Beast, and more. God is not a man - but in a world of men, created in God’s likeness, He became a man. Were there such a world as Narnia, & if the mode of God’s Presence as a man among men is a pattern for His presence among creatures, then it would, by analogy, be appropriate for the “Christ of Narnia” to be a talking Lion.​

The “Mountain of Aslan” is the Narnian analogue to the “Holy Hill” of the Bible - Lewis makes the Mountain do duty as the pattern for & reality behind all created worlds. It is the equivalent in Lewis’ story of the Mountain of which the Holy Hill of God in the Bible is but a type a foreshadowing; for God is this Mountain, He Alone is the Really Real. As Lewis, who had read his Plato, knew very well. Tolkien’s Holy Mountain is Mount Everwhite in the land of Aman, the dwelling of the Valar - he uses the same mythological motif, but in something closer to its Norse form.

The devil is also described in the bible as a lion. I would not call any movie a christian movie unless it is explicitly scripted as such. Movies like art are subject to interpretation and just as you can say that aslan is a true deity someone else can say that he symbolizes the devil.

A bit difficult, since the acts & character of Aslan are those of Christ. Lewis deals with the problem of pseudo-Christs in “The Last Battle”.​

The use of magic by stars of the show fly in the face of any christian ideology. Christianity is based on faith in Our Lord Jesus and being obedient to His will not faith in magic or men to save us but faith in God. How is this brought across in narnia or LOTR? I would really label the above as fiction rather than speculate as to the “christianess” of them which could be leading others in the wrong direction.

What in our world would be magic if a man did it, is not magic if a Wizard does it, for the wizards are “angelic” in nature, and are not men. They belong to the Maiar, and are lesser being than the Valar, though both groups are members of the Ainur, the “holy ones”. Elves, however excellent, are of a lesser nature still, & Men are less than they. So Men are very different from the Wizards, such as Gandalf, Saruman, & the others. Tolkien’s world is full of Peoples of many kinds. As is Lewis’.​

Gandalf’s magic is proper to his being - it is not an art, but a mode of action by which his nature is manifested. Just as reason is a mode of action by which our nature is manifested; it’s natural to us, bizarre as it might seem to an ape.