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Mickey
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And that makes it okay? Sheesh.
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Mickey
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Hmm? It seems that somehow you are trying to justify offensive music by making a Bible comparison. Interesting.
Well…I know not of any blanket view…but I do know this:
There is much music, either subtlely or outright, which projects imagery of violence, sex, lust, drugs, curse words, murder, occult, etc. I am quite certain that Jesus Christ, His disciples, and the Church Fathers would not defend it using your spin doctoring methods.
But again, I will say: You have free will.
Well…I know not of any blanket view…but I do know this:
There is much music, either subtlely or outright, which projects imagery of violence, sex, lust, drugs, curse words, murder, occult, etc. I am quite certain that Jesus Christ, His disciples, and the Church Fathers would not defend it using your spin doctoring methods.
But again, I will say: You have free will.
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Fluffyfox
Guest
Not so,here in America,you see people influenced by rap,emulating rappers and dressing up as gangstas,both white and black and using hood talk when most of them never been to the ghetto. At least rock is better than rap.
Because most rap is stuff like bling,bling and other stuff and a person talking into a microphone while backed by a beat.
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Ne_OrangeKnight
Guest
No. It can incline some listeners away from self-control, etc. You are speaking in false absolutes. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with being “pumped up.” If I were to go for a run, or a game of basketball with my friends, I would not want to listen to a lullaby; I would want to hear something that will get my adrenaline pumping and motivate me to keep going. Likewise for “elemental passions.” Things like anger, grief, fight-or-flight response are natural and a part of being human. Even Jesus felt these things. The problem is not appealing to passions, but allowing passions to be wholly substituted for reason. A kiss from my wife appeals to my elemental passions, but that is no reason to forbid her from kissing me.
You don’t seem to understand that your appraisal IS largely based on subjective opinion, as well as logical fallacy. Your argument is that the only way that someone could disagree with you is if he has some subversive agenda. Well, that’s not the only way that someone could disagree with you. One could also disagree with you if you’re wrong. You haven’t provided any data, self-evident or otherwise, except for personal experiences and overly broad generalizations based on your feelings. Moreover, these rather greatly conflict with my own experiences as a faithful Catholic who happens to have a massive collection of records from the 1950s-1980s.
Again, this is false. You have not proven any “wholly negative impact” that rock music inflicts upon man, except for one man: you. Quite to the contrary, there are many beautiful, uplifting pieces of rock and pop music, both in lyrics and in music. Music that makes my day brighter, music that moves me, music that fills me with love for those around me. To be sure, there are also songs that make my day worse and move only the contents of my stomach, but the trick is to seek out the former and avoid the latter.
Regarding the Romans passage, I’m sure that you are aware that there were problems in the early Church of some people presuming to tell others, incorrectly, what was right and wrong. “It is wicked and sinful to eat pork chops for dinner,” they might have said. Or, “You can’t be a holy Christian if you don’t circumcise your infants.” They presumably used their critical faculties to reach come to such conclusions, and they genuinely believed what they said, but they were genuinely wrong. I do not doubt that you feel that listening to rock music would lead you away from the level of holiness you have heretofore achieved. What I do have to wonder at, though, is what makes you think that my salvation is in peril because I choose to fire up Buddy Holly’s Greatest Hits.
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Yes. And it goes to show the racial element of the conservatives. They blast Obama for getting a rapper who does the exact same thing Cash used to do…sing a narrative from a point of view. If you think about Iron Maiden, they would sing about war and be sarcastic or ironic singing in the point of view of the bad guy to make them look BAD! Like in the song The Trooper, for example. Or in Run to the Hills they’d make themselves sound like the white man purging the plains of the Indians. Yet here comes the thought police conservatives listening to it and they’d say, “Look! Iron Maiden, a satanic group of rockers, are telling people war is good, death is right, and Indians need to be slaughtered wholesale. This is a travesty! Ban this form of death music that corrupts our youth!” 
There used to be an evangelical cassette tape going around in the 1980’s saying that. The tape also accused ELO (yes, I’m not kidding) and the Eagles (swear, I’m not kidding) of Satanism along with the usual lame accusations against Zeppelin and Blue Oyster Cult (whom I also like! )…and it all was just dumb nonsense and hysterics.
Corporations and the banking industry are scarier than these bands!
There used to be an evangelical cassette tape going around in the 1980’s saying that. The tape also accused ELO (yes, I’m not kidding) and the Eagles (swear, I’m not kidding) of Satanism along with the usual lame accusations against Zeppelin and Blue Oyster Cult (whom I also like! )…and it all was just dumb nonsense and hysterics.Corporations and the banking industry are scarier than these bands!
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Mickey
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LOL! I have seen non-Christians and atheists attempt to use the Bible against us many times for many different reasons.
LOL! I was wondering when you were going to begin throwing around the “fundamentalist” label as part of your argument.
Again I will tell you…you have free will to think what you please. I have seen dear friends lose their lives…and I can tell you that the yearning to emulate the lifestyle…and the industry itself…played a large role.
LOL! I was wondering when you were going to begin throwing around the “fundamentalist” label as part of your argument.
Again I will tell you…you have free will to think what you please. I have seen dear friends lose their lives…and I can tell you that the yearning to emulate the lifestyle…and the industry itself…played a large role.
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Mickey
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Better in what sense?
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Portrait
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[No message]
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Mickey
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Teens whose iPods are full of music with raunchy, sexual lyrics start having sex sooner than those who prefer other songs, a study found.
Whether it’s hip-hop, rap, pop or rock, much of popular music aimed at teens contains sexual overtones. Its influence on their behavior appears to depend on how the sex is portrayed, researchers found.
Songs depicting men as “sex-driven studs,” women as sex objects and with explicit references to sex acts are more likely to trigger early sexual behavior than those where sexual references are more veiled and relationships appear more committed, the study found.
Teens who said they listened to lots of music with degrading sexual messages were almost twice as likely to start having intercourse or other sexual activities within the following two years as were teens who listened to little or no sexually degrading music.
Among heavy listeners, 51 percent started having sex within two years, versus 29 percent of those who said they listened to little or no sexually degrading music.
msnbc.msn.com/id/14227775/ns/health-sexual_health/t/dirty-song-lyrics-can-prompt-early-teen-sex/
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mdrummer5
Guest
While rock is guilty of this it’s usually rap and hip hop that are super saturated with such content. However, it still does not mean that you can label all of either genre as bad. I noticed there’s still been no explanation as to how rock bands with obviously Christian lyrics can be considered un-Christian. While it’s not my style I believe there are Christian rappers and hip hop artists as well again with blatantly Christian lyrics… how do you label them as bad?
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Mickey
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I suppose one would have to guage it on a case by case basis by listening to it. I gave you the example of the “Christian” band I heard at the baptist function. They were in the style of “death metal” and one could not understand one word. The lyrics may have been “clean” but you could not hear them. It sounded like Satan screaming over a train wreck.
But then again…this threas is about Zeppelin.
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mdrummer5
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Indeed it is, but you and several others are talking about rock and other genres in general. My point is one that you seem to agree with in that it does have to be judged on a case by case basis. As far as the metal band you heard you may not like the sound but the sound is not indicative of lyrical content or “intent” of the band. There are plenty of bands that sound like that who I’m sure you’d never want to actually listen to based on your taste but who’s lyrical content I’d wager you’d find perfectly acceptable, even if you can’t sing alongI suppose one would have to guage it on a case by case basis by listening to it. I gave you the example of the “Christian” band I heard at the baptist function. They were in the style of “death metal” and one could not understand one word. The lyrics may have been “clean” but you could not hear them. It sounded like Satan screaming over a train wreck.
But then again…this threas is about Zeppelin.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Jharek,
You are mistaken. The view that rock music is inherently evil did not percolate slowly into the Catholic Church or Orthodoxy from Evangelical fundamentalism. All traditional orthodox Catholics would contend that rock and pop music is debased sensory material which emanates from an Augean stable of unimaginable filth and depravity, but that would not make them ‘flat earthers’. What is true is that some Evangelicals and Fundamentalists Christians also believe that rock and pop is inherently evil and this position they happen to hold in common with orthodox Catholics.
Catholics, especially stateside where there are some very bizzare groups, must beware of developing a sort of paronoia regarding Fundamentalism. Just because a Fundamentalist happens to believe something about a particular issue that does not ipso-facto mean that he must necessarily be wrong and off beam. Fundamentalists, after all, hold in common with all conservative Catholics and Orthodox, the fundamental tenets of Christian orthodoxy. My point is that it is perfectly possible to be a fundamentalist and at the same time to hold a correct position on some issue. Being a Fundamentalist does not automatically preclude a man from having any correct opinions or orthodox beliefs.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
You are mistaken. The view that rock music is inherently evil did not percolate slowly into the Catholic Church or Orthodoxy from Evangelical fundamentalism. All traditional orthodox Catholics would contend that rock and pop music is debased sensory material which emanates from an Augean stable of unimaginable filth and depravity, but that would not make them ‘flat earthers’. What is true is that some Evangelicals and Fundamentalists Christians also believe that rock and pop is inherently evil and this position they happen to hold in common with orthodox Catholics.
Catholics, especially stateside where there are some very bizzare groups, must beware of developing a sort of paronoia regarding Fundamentalism. Just because a Fundamentalist happens to believe something about a particular issue that does not ipso-facto mean that he must necessarily be wrong and off beam. Fundamentalists, after all, hold in common with all conservative Catholics and Orthodox, the fundamental tenets of Christian orthodoxy. My point is that it is perfectly possible to be a fundamentalist and at the same time to hold a correct position on some issue. Being a Fundamentalist does not automatically preclude a man from having any correct opinions or orthodox beliefs.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Mickey,
Cordial greetings and thankyou for submitting that disturbing (name removed by moderator)ut. Let us hope and pray that it will be duly noted by our fellow posters.
Of course this debased sensory material, rock and pop, is mind polluting and has something which responds readily to that which is basic and primitive in human nature.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Mickey
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LOL! I assure you…if you heard this band…you would think that Satan had made an appearance straight from the bowels of hell. I had to leave.
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Mickey
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I prefer the term “Traditionalist”. The label of “Fundamentalist” has come to be known as pejorative or insulting.
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Mickey
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Nah. They were a local group a few years ago…can’t recall the name…don’t want to. 
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mdrummer5
Guest
Oh… ok so you think you can judge the content of the lyrics you claim to not be able to understand just by listening to the sound? The following are lyrics from a metal band. Please explain to me as I’ve asked repeatedly now with different examples how you would consider this un-Christian given the lyrics. In fact given that they’re from Erie this very well could be the band you saw.LOL! I assure you…if you heard this band…you would think that Satan had made an appearance straight from the bowels of hell. I had to leave.
Lyrics to Guide For The Helpless by War of Ages:
Can I withstand all the pain that dwells within.
I won’t let go for my wounds are far too deep.
I’m on my knees in submission to the pain I’ve caused.
Will I give in or can I find the will to breathe again.
I never thought I’d be on my own.
Now bring me peace that shelters me.
**You shed your blood just so I could live again.
For a time I walked in darkness yet you were there to lead me through. **
Heal me.
Take my hand.
Lead me from this place.
Guide my heart.
I am yours.
I give myself to you.
Bring us hope.
Give us strength.
Now set us free.
Heal me.
Take my hand.
Lead me from this place.
Guide my heart.
I am yours.
I give myself to you
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JHow
Guest
I can’t believe you guys are still going after rock music, when I already demonstrated the much more seriously damaging influence of folk music. Folk is several orders of magnitude more influential on modern worship music and tastes and, by far, has contributed more to sloppy theology and heretical thinking than rock ever did. Bad thinking is much harder to kick than drugs, IMO.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=561432
Anyhow, my challenge to the anti-rockers is to consider three things:
1 Lyrics (the “text”)
2 Cultural associations (context), and lastly
3 The music.
The lyrics are the easiest place to make your anti-rock argument, because they can be read and intpretation is fairly straightforward, although, as was pointed out in the Johnny Cash example, it is necessary to separate the author from the authorial voice in the song.
Cultural associations are also a valid point, but, as Folk music ably demonstrates, give it enough time and people forget the orginal context. My son recently performed Joplin’s “Maple Leaf Rag” at a piano recital (he is nine years old). Everybody loves it, what a delightful melody. Needless to say, we did NOT have a conversation about what the “rag” is, or how the music got that name (“What’s a brothel, Dad?”). Whorehouse dance music can become mainstream if you wait long enough.
The music is where you lose me. Several statements have been made in this thread such as:
You need to point to more than just emotion, because emotions really are neutral. There is righteous anger, there is appropriate passion.
You need to avoid talking about the “rhythym of sex”, because love-making at 120 bpm is, well, absurd.
I would love it we could talk about keys, (is minor meaner?), or scales, or modes, or meter, or anything musical to give structure to the idea of bad music.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=561432
Anyhow, my challenge to the anti-rockers is to consider three things:
1 Lyrics (the “text”)
2 Cultural associations (context), and lastly
3 The music.
The lyrics are the easiest place to make your anti-rock argument, because they can be read and intpretation is fairly straightforward, although, as was pointed out in the Johnny Cash example, it is necessary to separate the author from the authorial voice in the song.
Cultural associations are also a valid point, but, as Folk music ably demonstrates, give it enough time and people forget the orginal context. My son recently performed Joplin’s “Maple Leaf Rag” at a piano recital (he is nine years old). Everybody loves it, what a delightful melody. Needless to say, we did NOT have a conversation about what the “rag” is, or how the music got that name (“What’s a brothel, Dad?”). Whorehouse dance music can become mainstream if you wait long enough.
The music is where you lose me. Several statements have been made in this thread such as:
It is being argued here, that the music itself is bad. My question is simply, how does music do this? Absent lyrics and cultural associations, how are these effects achieved? What is it about “Over the Hills and Far Away” (Zeppelin) that is bad, what makes "Sacre du Printemps (Stravinsky) good (?), what makes “Two Were Bound for Emmaus” (Bob Hurd of OCP fame) sublime?
You need to point to more than just emotion, because emotions really are neutral. There is righteous anger, there is appropriate passion.
You need to avoid talking about the “rhythym of sex”, because love-making at 120 bpm is, well, absurd.
I would love it we could talk about keys, (is minor meaner?), or scales, or modes, or meter, or anything musical to give structure to the idea of bad music.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. Pretty lyrics will not justify a gut-wrenching hoarse demon-like wail accompanied by speed death metal thrash music.
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