Led zeppelin!!!

[Mickey]

and that has nothing to do with the band or their sound…

Oh please…it most certainly does. You are in denial.

But since you think you can judge something based on nothing more than one of your five senses tell me how judging a band based on their sound is any better than judging a person based ont he color of their skin

That is rather sneaky…trying to morph this into a racial prejudice issue. For shame!

Now it is time for me to ask you a question.
Why do you think it is not necessary to guard our sense hearing?

 

[mdrummer5]

Oh please…it most certainly does. You are in denial.

No, I’m not. I listen to mostly metal and have NEVER exhibited the kind of behavior you claim it elicits.

That is rather sneaky…trying to morph this into a racial prejudice issue. For shame!

Stop ducking the question and answer me if I’m to be shamed… prejudice is prejudice how is it different?

Now it is time for me to ask you a question.
Why do you think it is not necessary to guard our sense hearing?

Never said such a thing… I wear earplugs every time I play

 

[Mickey]

You can find a study to show anything. It’s all a matter of what the people conducting the study want to conclude.

Your link is about video games and has nothing to do with aggression, sex, violence, etc and its relation to music. Furthermore, there are many more studies in favor of a link to inappropriate behaviour and certain music genres (and video games and movies for that matter) than there are against it. Add that to our moral compass as it relates to our faith, and I think you have your answer.

I know how difficult it can be to abandon something that you have spent a lifetime listening to----and I understand why you feel the need to defend it.

 

[Mickey]

I listen to mostly metal and have NEVER exhibited the kind of behavior you claim it elicits.

You may be the exception.

Stop ducking the question

Stop asking silly questions. Your question is a strawman accusing me of racial prejudice. Knock it off please!

Never said such a thing.

Yes you did.

 

[mdrummer5]

Stop asking silly questions. Your question is a strawman accusing me of racial prejudice. Knock it off please!

I never accused you… I asked you to explain how it’s different. It’s quite obvious that you can’t but you don’t want to admit it because it nullifies your ridiculous claim.

 

[Mickey]

I never accused you… I asked you to explain how it’s different.

You ask many questions and I have answered them as charitably as possible–but you cannot accept the answers—instead changing tactics and attempting to make an odd analogy to racial prejudice! I am sure my wife would like to hear that I am some kind of secret bigot because of my distaste for sex and violence in music.

…especially since she would be considered a minority.

I believe my conversation with you is finished. Have a great day!

 

[mdrummer5]

You ask many questions and I have answered them as charitably as possible–but you cannot accept the answers—instead changing tactics and attempting to make an odd analogy to racial prejudice! I am sure my wife would like to hear that I am some kind of secret bigot because of my distaste for sex and violence in music.

…especially since she would be considered a minority.

I believe my conversation with you is finished. Have a great day!

The content of a bands music is determined by the lyrics. When the lyrics are Christian you still find fault in it based on the sound. This, whether you like it or not is a form of prejudice.

Just for clarity let’s look at the definition…

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

Of the three the first and second are applicable and undeniable… you have a preconceived notion that all metal is bad based solely on the sound with no consideration to the lyrical content. That’s prejudice.

I never once said that you were racially prejudiced, but since you’re obviously not (and I do believe that) I’m asking you to explain how you feel it’s different.

 

[Mickey]

The Soundtrack of Recklessness
Musical Preferences and Reckless Behavior among Adolescents
Jeffrey Arnett
University of Missouri-Columbia

Adolescents with various musical preferences were compared. Adolescents who preferred hard rock or heavy metal music reported higher rates of reckless behavior, including driving while intoxicated, driving over 80 miles per hour, sex without contraception, sex with someone known only casually, drug use, shoplifting, and vandalism. Preferences for hard rock or heavy metal music were also associated with higher levels of sensation seeking, negative family relationships, and, among girls, low self-esteem. In regression analyses, sensation seeking was related to reckless behavior, whereas the relation between reckless behavior and musical preferences was no longer significant, except for sex without contraception. It was concluded that adolescents who are high in sensation seeking are attracted to hard rock and heavy metal music as well as to reckless behavior perhaps because of the high intensity of sensation provided by these experiences.

 

[mdrummer5]

The Soundtrack of Recklessness
Musical Preferences and Reckless Behavior among Adolescents
Jeffrey Arnett
University of Missouri-Columbia

Adolescents with various musical preferences were compared. Adolescents who preferred hard rock or heavy metal music reported higher rates of reckless behavior, including driving while intoxicated, driving over 80 miles per hour, sex without contraception, sex with someone known only casually, drug use, shoplifting, and vandalism. Preferences for hard rock or heavy metal music were also associated with higher levels of sensation seeking, negative family relationships, and, among girls, low self-esteem. In regression analyses, sensation seeking was related to reckless behavior, whereas the relation between reckless behavior and musical preferences was no longer significant, except for sex without contraception. It was concluded that adolescents who are high in sensation seeking are attracted to hard rock and heavy metal music as well as to reckless behavior perhaps because of the high intensity of sensation provided by these experiences.

As I already stated when you tried to link video games to violence… for every study you find that says one thing you can find another that says the opposite… there’s no such thing as a non-biased study anymore… it’s all a matter of what those in charge of the testing want to prove.

And you still haven’t answered my question.

 

[Mickey]

With the help of God, I have to the extent of my ability commented briefly on each of the senses and indicated the harm that they can bring to the soul when they are abused. You need all of your strength to control these senses from passionate desires and to protect yourself from any evil form that they may bring upon you. These senses after all, are, as we have noted, those very doors and windows through which either life or death may enter. Life enters when they are governed well and do not partake of their usual passions. Death enters when they partake of “corpses” as do the birds of prey; when they taste the dust of the earth as do the serpents; when they eat rotted food as do the flies. Or to put it in another way, when they partake of those sinful and death-bearing passions, which are harmful to the soul. This is why the prophet Jeremiah alluded to these senses when he said: “For death has come up into our windows, it has entered our palaces” (Jer 9:21). St. Gregory of Nyssa, interpreting this reference, explained that “the windows” through which death enters “our palace” are indeed the senses. Make every effort then to purify your soul from the impurities which the senses bring within from the outside. These senses may be likened to mountain torrents, which as soon as they swell up with the force of abundant water from the winter rains drag downhill with them everything that happens to be in their way-rocks, logs, mud, and other debris. The senses too, when allowed free reign by the controlling mind, are driven out with great force toward the physical things of life and thus draw with themselves every indecent vision, every shameful word, every evil sound, and generally every dirt and impurity of the passions. Afterward, when they return they bring back all these things into the troubled soul, causing it to be darkened, to be full of so many shameful images and so many conflicting sounds that, generally speaking, it is overwhelmed by the passions that make it into a den of thieves and a harbor of impurities. It was perhaps at a time when the prophet David was troubled by such torrents of the senses that he shouted to God in spiritual anguish: “The pangs of death surrounded me, and the torrents of iniquity sorely troubled me.” (Ps 17:4).
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

 

[mdrummer5]

With the help of God, I have to the extent of my ability commented briefly on each of the senses and indicated the harm that they can bring to the soul when they are abused. You need all of your strength to control these senses from passionate desires and to protect yourself from any evil form that they may bring upon you. These senses after all, are, as we have noted, those very doors and windows through which either life or death may enter. Life enters when they are governed well and do not partake of their usual passions. Death enters when they partake of “corpses” as do the birds of prey; when they taste the dust of the earth as do the serpents; when they eat rotted food as do the flies. Or to put it in another way, when they partake of those sinful and death-bearing passions, which are harmful to the soul. This is why the prophet Jeremiah alluded to these senses when he said: “For death has come up into our windows, it has entered our palaces” (Jer 9:21). St. Gregory of Nyssa, interpreting this reference, explained that “the windows” through which death enters “our palace” are indeed the senses. Make every effort then to purify your soul from the impurities which the senses bring within from the outside. These senses may be likened to mountain torrents, which as soon as they swell up with the force of abundant water from the winter rains drag downhill with them everything that happens to be in their way-rocks, logs, mud, and other debris. The senses too, when allowed free reign by the controlling mind, are driven out with great force toward the physical things of life and thus draw with themselves every indecent vision, every shame*ful word, every evil sound, and generally every dirt and impurity of the passions. Afterward, when they return they bring back all these things into the troubled soul, causing it to be darkened, to be full of so many shameful images and so many conflicting sounds that, generally speaking, it is overwhelmed by the passions that make it into a den of thieves and a harbor of impurities. It was perhaps at a time when the prophet David was troubled by such torrents of the senses that he shouted to God in spiritual anguish: “The pangs of death surrounded me, and the torrents of iniquity sorely troubled me.” (Ps 17:4).
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

I think I’ve recognized the issue… you can quote all kinds of sources to support your claims but when presented with logic you’re completely lost and have no valid rebuttal other than to cite more sources… have you no ability to think for yourself?

 

[Mickey]

According to St. Gregory the Theologian we must struggle to block our senses and to control them, for they are the easy ways toward evil and entrances of sin. Let us not give in to the easy ways of evil and to the easy entrances of sin. I say to you then, put all your strength forward to protect your senses. I also say to you to be attentive, to struggle, and I insist on this, by using various synonymous words. I wish to prove to you that the devil is always standing before us, observing and studying the condition of our senses. Just as soon as we open even one sense to him, he enters into our soul directly and brings death to us, as St. Isaac has noted: “The enemy is standing and observing day and night directly against our eyes to detect which entrance of our senses will be opened to him to enter. Once he enters through one of our senses because of our lack of vigilance, then this devious shameless dog attacks us further with his own arrows.” We must also struggle to protect our senses because it is not only through curious eyes that we fall into the sin of desire and commit fornication and adultery of the heart, as the Lord noted. There is also the fornication and the adultery of the sense of hearing, the sense of smell, the sense of taste, the sense of touch, and of all the senses together. Therefore, St. Gregory the Theologian has written in his heroic counsel to the virgin: “Virgin, be truly a virgin in the ears, in the eyes and in the tongue! Every sense that wanders with ease sins.” St. Gregory of Nyssa also said: “The Lord has spoken, I believe, about all the senses, so that following His words we can include that the one who hears lustfully, the one who touches and the one who uses every inner power in us to serve pleasure has actually committed the sin in his heart.”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

 

[mdrummer5]

According to St. Gregory the Theologian we must struggle to block our senses and to control them, for they are the easy ways toward evil and entrances of sin. Let us not give in to the easy ways of evil and to the easy entrances of sin. I say to you then, put all your strength forward to protect your senses. I also say to you to be attentive, to struggle, and I insist on this, by using various synonymous words. I wish to prove to you that the devil is always standing before us, observing and studying the condition of our senses. Just as soon as we open even one sense to him, he enters into our soul directly and brings death to us, as St. Isaac has noted: “The enemy is standing and observing day and night directly against our eyes to detect which entrance of our senses will be opened to him to enter. Once he enters through one of our senses because of our lack of vigilance, then this devious shameless dog attacks us further with his own arrows.” We must also struggle to protect our senses because it is not only through curious eyes that we fall into the sin of desire and commit fornication and adultery of the heart, as the Lord noted. There is also the fornication and the adultery of the sense of hearing, the sense of smell, the sense of taste, the sense of touch, and of all the senses together. Therefore, St. Gregory the Theologian has written in his heroic counsel to the virgin: “Virgin, be truly a virgin in the ears, in the eyes and in the tongue! Every sense that wanders with ease sins.” St. Gregory of Nyssa also said: “The Lord has spoken, I believe, about all the senses, so that following His words we can include that the one who hears lustfully, the one who touches and the one who uses every inner power in us to serve pleasure has actually committed the sin in his heart.”
St Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain

I think I’ve recognized the issue… you can quote all kinds of sources to support your claims but when presented with logic you’re completely lost and have no valid rebuttal other than to cite more sources… have you no ability to think for yourself?

I guess you answered my question. When you have the ability to think for yourself and come up with an answer that is nothing but your own words I’ll be quite interested but you’re boring me now.

 

[JHow]

Dear JHow,

Cordial greetings and nice to see you on the boards again. Hope all is well, dear friend.

Please refer to my last post to Mickey (#143) which I think wil address the issue that you raise. If you would like to elaborate further I will gladly do so, but tomorrow as I am taking my leave now.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Portrait:

Greetings to you as well. I am doing well, thanks! Re: your post 143, as I read that, you appear to be mostly arguing from a postion of what I would call cultural association. Rock music is so entangled with a negative world view that the music itself can’t be separated from that orginal context:

…some art forms have been created to express certain philosophies and are so inseparably wedded to those philosophies that they convey a particular world-view.

I think this is a plausible theory as to why someone should avoid rock music, although I think it fails when one considers the wide breadth of works that are considered “rock” (from Beatles “Yesterday” to Led Zeppelin “Kashmir” all the way to Van Halen “Eruption”).

But this is very different from what I seem to hear in many of the posts here, which is that there is something inherently bad in the music itself.

Cheers,

JHow

 

[JHow]

…It is a fact that since its inception rock music has been associated with puerile youth rebellion…

And, one might add, since its revival in the 30’s and 40’s, folk music, and most especially of the 1960’s variety (as opposed to the “Kelvingrove” variety) that has leaked its way into Catholic hymnbooks, has been associated with real, actual, communist-style rebellion.

In America, perhaps no one did more to popularize folk music than Pete Seeger (Thank him for “Kumbayah”, by the way). Inseparable from his work as a musician was his political activism on behalf of the Communist party. In fact, the folk music scene of the 1930s and 1940s was full of fellow-travelers like Woody Guthrie, Milard Lampell, Lee Hays, Ronnie Gilbert, etc. In fact, just the other day I was treated to “How can I keep from Singing?” (originally a Baptist hymn, but popularized by Pete Seeger in the 50’s, and even more recently re-popularized in American Catholic hymn books by the great duo of Haugen and Hass) by the choir in my church.

In the 1930s, Seeger was apologizing for Stalin and Hitler, until the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact came undone, meanwhile Robert Johnson was dealing with the “hellhound” on his trail. Whose art, in this case, was more dangerous? Whose songs were contrived to serve a political party, and whose songs open a window into the human soul? Whose songs went on to inspire legions of church-folk guitarists, and whose songs went on to inspire Led Zeppelin?

 

[ClayPots47]

Unfortunately, our Church has not as yet pronounced specifically against rock and pop music, thus the faithful must continue to use reasoned logic and their sanctified common sense to determine whether or not it is an acceptable art form. Now when rock and pop music are weighed in the balances they are clearly found to wanting on so many counts. This being the case we are entitled to pass unfavourable judegement upon them and expose them as “unfruitful works of darkness”. Moreover, as a work of mercy and an act of love we ought to admonish others to give this culturally unwholesome sensory material a wide-berth.

Well, you have THIS and THIS, which indicate that the Vatican is unlikely to outright speak negatively against rock and pop music. There is no way the band mentioned on the second link (Third Day) is producing “unfruitful works of darkness”. In the words of the late Larry Norman, grandfather of the modern CCM/Christian Rock movement, “Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?”

While I don’t listen to the Beatles as much, I have no intentions of giving up the Southern Rock music of Third Day. I have been a fan from the get-go, and have the original Gray Dot version of their self-titled debut. As you can guess, I am not buying the whole, “Rock is of the devil, and the beat incites the lustful sexual passions” argument I so often see coming from Christians. How are Third Day, Jars of Clay. Lifehouse, Switchfoot, POD (Payable on Death), Demon Hunter, DC Talk and many other of the most popular and influential Christian bands, and bands consisting of Christians (like Flyleaf, Paper Tongues
and Stars Go Dim who all get exposure on MTV/MTVU) not an acceptable art form?

Art, including music, can be sacred or profane, and anywhere in-between. Let’s not throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water please.

 

[ClayPots47]

On the contrary. The thrash speed stuff has been known to cause aggression (with or without lyrics).

Ever see a mosh pit?

Yes, saw it at the Jars of Clay concert at the catholic university in my former town back in 1999. Mosh pits aren’t limited to metal, and Jars of Clay is an alternative pop-rock band. Granted, the mosh pit formed when the opening band, Silage, took to the stage. It was right next to me, as I had front row, center-aisle seating. But it continued right through Burlap to Cashmere’s and Jars of Clay’s sets, though it got smaller and quieter. This mosh pit was fairly tame, mostly because security kept it from getting too aggressive during the Silage set. Not sire why Silage was the opener, as they have a much harder sound than Burlap and Jars pop-tinged alternative rock. Can’t say whether is was pure aggression, or just young people letting loose and having a good time. Lot’s of jumping, swaying, and Silage’s lead singer dived in the pit at one point. I was like, “Ummm, okay. Get me to Burlap and Jars ASAP.” Definitely not my thing.

 

[Fluffyfox]

Got a Ibanez Gio today. Is it me or do Line 6 amps sound stale as opposed to Marshall amps?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My first guitar was an Ibanez Roadstar II. I love it sentimentally but boy was that sucker junky! I’m a Fender guy—one Strat and one Tele in my house…Ibanez’s high-end stuff kicks butt…

Got a Ibanez Gio today. Is it me or do Line 6 amps sound stale as opposed to Marshall amps?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I guess you answered my question. When you have the ability to think for yourself and come up with an answer that is nothing but your own words I’ll be quite interested but you’re boring me now.

Don’t hold your breath. That guy’s a waste of time. To everyone else, I suggest you all note that Mickey here actually frowns down upon logic and reasoning and opts only for blind faith. That should be enough to tell you what kind of tactics this guy pulls when arguing on anything he opposes. Then, when you finally bowl him over with the facts, he puts you on his ignore list.

On the contrary. The thrash speed stuff has been known to cause aggression (with or without lyrics).

Actually, to all you kiddies out there reading Mickey here, aggression isn’t always a bad thing. It has all sorts of wonderful applications.