Leeann, a question for you and anyone else who might like to answer.

[guanophore]

To guanophore:

I believe that it not only applies me, but it applies to you too guanophore and all believers in Jesus Christ, the Father/theSon/theHolySpirit, His birth by a vigirn,His life as man/God on earth, His death, His resurrection.

[14] And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[15] And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

Since coming into this new “thread” (forum?) or this “topic”- I have answered RobHom again, without using scripture, but using my own words. In it I made reference to praying before reading the Bible, seeking His assistance in being able to understand/comprehend and apply His truth to my life and I believe that verses 14 and 15 above apply to that.

Thanks Leeann, this answers my question!

Now, how can you tell that you are one of the persons included in the category that the Apostle refers to as “we”?

 

[guanophore]

Regardless of what the Council of Trent was addressing about the heretics, it is true that the Catholic church does indeed state that anyone who does not belong to the Catholic church is not going to obtain salvation.

Yes, this is true. Why is this true? Because Jesus only founded One Church, with One Faith, One Baptism We are all members one of another.

That is why the Catholic Church recognizes that all persons who are validly baptized are members of the catholic church, however improperly joined. Since there is only One Body of Christ, and all who are validly baptized are members of His One Body,then all who are in Christ are Catholic, to some extent.

I understand that you, ja4, Reformed, Sola Scriptura, SIA, and a number of other members at CAF don’t want to be Catholic, but that does not change the facts.

 

[Leeann]

***I went to the web site and could not find what you indicate is there.

Nowhere is the Church ever address as Roman. But even if it were this is not an official representation of what the Church states.
Use this link to go to the Catholic Catechism***Link 846-848 is what the Church teaches.

Hi adrift:

You have to just scroll down the page a bit.

From the work of Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, published by the Mercier Press Ltd., Cork, Ireland, 1955. With Imprimatur of Cornelius, Bishop. Reprinted in U.S.A. by Tan Books and Publishers, Rockford, Illinois, 1974.

1. The Unity and Trinity of God
2. God the Creator
3. God the Redeemer
4. The Mother of the Redeemer
5. God the Sanctifier
6. The Catholic Church

VI. The Catholic Church

1. The Church founded by Christ is unique and one.
2. The Church founded by Christ is holy.
3. The Church founded by Christ is catholic.
4. The Church founded by Christ is apostolic.
5. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

Another site below, states the same.

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.cfm

**Dogmas of the Catholic Church

THE CHURCH
The Necessity of the Church **

1. The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church. (Sent. certa.)
2. Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. (De fide.)

and:

www.vatican website

Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **

**836 **"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
and further down:

and further down:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, **it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

Of course the Catholic church’s perspective is that it is indeed the one and only true church of Christ.

Hope this helps you in regards to what the church teaches…sincerely…not in a smug or smartalecky way…but I know that there are some of my own dear friends that are not clear on some of the teachings themselves and they are practicing some strange things with regards to how they “worship” Mary…I say worship as it’s not the same as what the posters I’ve talked to in these threads/forums indicate the Catholic church actually teaches.

 

[guanophore]

Hi adrift:

You have to just scroll down the page a bit.

From the work of Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, published by the Mercier Press Ltd., Cork, Ireland, 1955. With Imprimatur of Cornelius, Bishop. Reprinted in U.S.A. by Tan Books and Publishers, Rockford, Illinois, 1974.

1. The Unity and Trinity of God
2. God the Creator
3. God the Redeemer
4. The Mother of the Redeemer
5. God the Sanctifier
6. The Catholic Church

VI. The Catholic Church

1. The Church founded by Christ is unique and one.
2. The Church founded by Christ is holy.
3. The Church founded by Christ is catholic.
4. The Church founded by Christ is apostolic.
5. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

I am sorry, Leeann. I still can’t find it! Can you point out where you found “Roman” here?

Hope this helps you in regards to what the church teaches…sincerely…not in a smug or smartalecky way…but I know that there are some of my own dear friends that are not clear on some of the teachings themselves and they are practicing some strange things with regards to how they “worship” Mary…I say worship as it’s not the same as what the posters I’ve talked to in these threads/forums indicate the Catholic church actually teaches.

Does it bother you that Catholics believe that all who are validly baptized are members of the One Body of Christ, the Church?

 

[Leeann]

Leeann,

First, thank you for the answer. Yours was the most succinct answer to my question. I appreciate it.

Second, I apologize for having missed your other responses! I did not see them

Peace!!

Rob

No need to apolgoize - I understood that is what had happened when I went back to the original page and discovered it had closed so quickly.

I am slow at responding sometimes…depending on my time and I’m not good at actually working on responses “within the screen” here…so I work away on a Word doc. at my own pace and then transfer it later.

Also - I don’t know how this all works, but I’m not always actually “in” or “on” the thread/forum, even if it indicates somehow that I am. I may leave it “open” while I’m working on a response in the Word doc. - or - as has become a habit of my husband’s lately - HE will be in here reading through the posts and hopping around - while I dutifully prepare his dinner or do his laundry…or more than likely watch a movie on t.v.!

 

[Leeann]

What do you make of these verses?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Hi Chesterton

I’ve seen this and will respond once I can read through them.
Will get back to you I promise.

 

[Leeann]

Thanks Leeann, this answers my question!

Now, how can you tell that you are one of the persons included in the category that the Apostle refers to as “we”?

John also makes record, in John Ch. 17 – of Jesus’ prayer – where He prayers for the disciples and also for all those who will believe through their word.

[18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (the disciples/Apostles)
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I’m not saying “their word” is the bible in the sense of what Jesus means by their actual preaching at that time, but their words that were later recorded in the “gospel books” - in the bible which hold the gospel message and its truth and were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That then brings us to the other scripture verses that I had referred too and the promises within them to all who believed.
I believe that the message holds as true today as it did then.

 

[Leeann]

Yes, this is true. Why is this true? Because Jesus only founded One Church, with One Faith, One Baptism We are all members one of another.

That is why the Catholic Church recognizes that all persons who are **validly baptized **are members of the catholic church, however improperly joined. Since there is only One Body of Christ, and all who are **validly baptized **are members of His One Body,then all who are in Christ are Catholic, to some extent.

I understand that you, ja4, Reformed, Sola Scriptura, SIA, and a number of other members at CAF don’t want to be Catholic, but that does not change the facts.

I refer you back to your response in a previous dialogue we were having, where your reply indicated that this **wasn’t true **and suggested that my perceptions of Catholicism were “twisted”.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.
Response from guanophore:

I am sorry, but you are suffering from an error. This is not the Teaching of the Catholic Church. How did you come to get so twisted in your perceptions of Catholicism?

In your above response you indicate that there is an “invalid baptism”.
(red highlighting is mine)

What action is necessary in order for a Christian to be categorized as being “validly baptized” as opposed to being “invalidly baptized” and when/where did Jesus or His Apostles ever make such a distinction?

You also state that “this does not change the facts” - my question is - does not change what facts? Or *which *facts?

The claim by the Catholic church as to being the only church with the sole authority to be able to administer “God’s Grace” through their “baptism sacrament”?

Can I just take your word for that…that this is a “fact”…now?

Based on what you have previously stated in the “fact” that the Catholic church “doesn’t” teach this…or the “fact” that the Catholic church “does” teach this?

 

[Leeann]

I am sorry, Leeann. I still can’t find it! Can you point out where you found “Roman” here?

Does it bother you that Catholics believe that all who are validly baptized are members of the One Body of Christ, the Church?

I think you’re referring to a comment another poster made with regards to “Roman”.
They were referring to the website I posted: theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-VI-Church
And when you open it – on the page itself it is entitled :
“The Roman Catholic Church Dogmas”
That’s where the word “Roman” was mentioned, not by me, but by the other poster.

The conditional phrase – “validly baptized” indicates that those outside of the Catholic church who have - what the Catholic church believes to be an “invalid baptism” are not members of the Body of Christ. ( or at least not in the “full extent” how did you put it??..“to some extent”…"???)

That concerns me, as I don’t believe that it is true.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

In your above response you indicate that there is an “invalid baptism”.
(red highlighting is mine)

What action is necessary in order for a Christian to be categorized as being “validly baptized” as opposed to being “invalidly baptized” and when/where did Jesus or His Apostles ever make such a distinction?

The distinction was made by Christ before His Ascension, when He told the Apostles, “Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. If you were, say, baptised “in the name of Jesus,” then you weren’t properly baptised according to Christ’s instructions.

Also, it has to be done with water, but I don’t think that that’s as big an issue.

So, rest assured that Protestants can validly baptise people; they just have to do it correctly.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[ralphinal]

Actually, the use of Water is a huge issue. I think that the Salvation Army does not use water, and those are not accepted as valid.

Mormon baptisms are not accepted as valid, either. This is primarily due to a flawed understanding of the Trinity.

 

[guanophore]

I refer you back to your response in a previous dialogue we were having, where your reply indicated that this **wasn’t true **and suggested that my perceptions of Catholicism were “twisted”.

Yes.

In your above response you indicate that there is an “invalid baptism”.
(red highlighting is mine)

Yes.
Leeann;4328446:

What action is necessary in order for a Christian to be categorized as being “validly baptized” as opposed to being “invalidly baptized” and when/where did Jesus or His Apostles ever make such a distinction?

A valid baptism is trinitarian in form, and intends to accomplish what the Church does.

You also state that “this does not change the facts” - my

question is - does not change what facts? Or *which *facts?

You posted erroneous information about what the Church teaches.

The claim

by the Catholic church as to being the only church with the sole authority to be able to administer “God’s Grace” through their “baptism sacrament”?

God’s grace is not bound by the sacraments. They are the normative means by He intended to dispense His grace.

Can I just take your word for that…that this is a “fact”…now?

Based on what you have previously stated in the “fact” that the Catholic church “doesn’t”

teach this…or the “fact” that the Catholic church “does” teach this?

Leeann:

Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.

What you have written here is false.

 

[guanophore]

I think you’re referring to a comment another poster made with regards to “Roman”.
They were referring to the website I posted: theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-VI-Church
And when you open it – on the page itself it is entitled :
“The Roman Catholic Church Dogmas”
That’s where the word “Roman” was mentioned, not by me, but by the other poster.

OK. It is just one of my mantras on CAF.

The conditional phrase – “validly baptized” indicates that those outside of the Catholic church who have - what the Catholic church believes to be an “invalid baptism” are not members of the Body of Christ.

No.
Leeann;4328528:

( or at least not in the “full extent” how did you put it??..“to some extent”…"???)

That concerns me, as I don’t believe that it is true.

Neither do I.

 

[JMJ_coder]

For a Baptism to be considered valid, it must have proper form and matter.

The matter for this Sacrament is water and triple immersion or pouring with the water.

The form is the invocation “N. I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (note: other names cannot be substituted - as in Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier) Also, there must be proper intent - the proper intent is intending to do what the Church does with Baptism, that is enter the one being baptized into the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4329011]
Originally Posted by Leeann
Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.

guanophore
What you have written here is false.

Leeann is absolutely correct. We see this clearly in this partial quote from the papal bull in 1302 by pope Boniface –
"UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins,…

 

[Leeann]

The distinction was made by Christ before His Ascension, when He told the Apostles, “Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. If you were, say, baptised “in the name of Jesus,” then you weren’t properly baptised according to Christ’s instructions.

Also, it has to be done with water, but I don’t think that that’s as big an issue.

So, rest assured that Protestants can validly baptise people; they just have to do it correctly.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

I agree wholeheartedly!
Thank you for clarifying that for me.

 

[Leeann]

For a Baptism to be considered valid, it must have proper form and matter.

The matter for this Sacrament is water and triple immersion or pouring with the water.

The form is the invocation “N. I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” (note: other names cannot be substituted - as in Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier) Also, there must be proper intent - the proper intent is intending to do what the Church does with Baptism, that is enter the one being baptized into the Mystical Body of Christ.

Thank you Jmj_Coder, you’ve made that clearer.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
I refer you back to your response in a previous dialogue we were having, where your reply indicated that this wasn’t true and suggested that my perceptions of Catholicism were “twisted”.

Response guanophore:
Yes.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
In your above response you indicate that there is an “invalid baptism”.
(red highlighting is mine)

Response guanophore:
Yes.

Originally Posted by Leeann
What action is necessary in order for a Christian to be categorized as being “validly baptized” as opposed to being “invalidly baptized” and when/where did Jesus or His Apostles ever make such a distinction?

Response guanophore:
A valid baptism is trinitarian in form, and intends to accomplish what the Church does.

But that’s not what N_OrangeKnight says? And I believe that poster is Catholic.
He/she just says that it has to be Trinitarian/water, which a lot of other churches do, no mention of the intent of becoming a member of the Catholic church – or the need to do so.

Whereas another poster - Jmj_Coder offers more in line to what you state with regards to “accomplish what the Church does” (intent)….become a member of the Catholic church, in order for it to be considered “valid” by them.

Originally Posted by Leeann
You also state that “this does not change the facts” - my question is - does not change what facts? Or which facts?
Response guanophore:
You posted erroneous information about what the Church teaches.

This is the “erroneous information” that you were directly responding.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.

Response from guanophore:
I am sorry, but you are suffering from an error. This is not the Teaching of the Catholic Church. How did you come to get so twisted in your perceptions of Catholicism?

Another poster also responded and also said it wasn’t a teaching of the Catholic church -then I posted 2 websites that state it is the dogma of the Catholic church as well as a section of the catechism from the Vatican website that states the same.
What is erroneous about the statement I posted that you directly responded too above?

Originally Posted by Leeann
The claim by the Catholic church as to being the only church with the sole authority to be able to administer “God’s Grace” through their “baptism sacrament”?
Response guanophore:
God’s grace is not bound by the sacraments. They are the normative means by He intended to dispense His grace.

And He does, in all churches that baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit.
The point I was making, was in regards to the Catholic church claiming that they alone have the “valid” way of administering His Grace, which would then make any other churches’ baptisms “invalid” I guess – even if they use water and baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit, because unless the people that were baptized at any other church actually leave that church and become a member of the Catholic church – they are not considered a part of the Body of Christ – and since they are not a member of the Catholic church – they cannot obtain salvation. Is that a better way of explaining it?

Originally Posted by Leeann
Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.
Response guanophore:
What you have written here is false.

Could you please clarify **why **you believe it to be false?

www.vatican website

Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, **it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
The conditional phrase – “validly baptized” indicates that those outside of the Catholic church who have - what the Catholic church believes to be an “invalid baptism” are not members of the Body of Christ.

Response guanophore:
No.

I’m sorry – does that mean “No” that I’ve made an error in understanding it this way – or “No” they are not considered to be members of the Body of Christ.

Originally Posted by Leeann
( or at least not in the “full extent” how did you put it??..“to some extent”…"???)

That concerns me, as I don’t believe that it is true.

Response guanophore:
Neither do I.

So you don’t believe what you posted???

 

[Leeann]

What do you make of these verses?

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Hi ChestertonRules

With regards to these verses, I’m assuming you mean in relation to the Apostles and to the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession, meaning that the church(s) back then was(were) considered to be the same as the Catholic church as we know it today.

I don’t believe they relate just specifically to the Catholic church as we know it today, or even as it was known after the Council of Nicea. But that they relate to all churches that are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3: V10 -11

[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The verses that you’ve posted - stated by Jesus were directed to His Apostles, giving them the authority to go out and do what He had intended them to do - and they did – the others were instructions given to believers/churches in how they should deal with situations when they arose.