Leeann, a question for you and anyone else who might like to answer.

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

But that’s not what N_OrangeKnight says? And I believe that poster is Catholic.
He just says that it has to be Trinitarian/water, which a lot of other churches do, no mention of the intent of becoming a member of the Catholic church – or the need to do so.

Whereas another poster - Jmj_Coder offers more in line to what you state with regards to “accomplish what the Church does” (intent)….become a member of the Catholic church, in order for it to be considered “valid” by them.

I was just trying to give you the short version; JMJ_coder is absolutely correct, although you misunderstand slightly. It’s not that you must baptise with intent to become explicitly Catholic, but to intend to do what the Church does, i.e. cleanse the recipient of sin and join him into the mystical body of Christ (which is the Catholic Church, but that’s likely an argument for another thread).

Actually, the use of Water is a huge issue. I think that the Salvation Army does not use water, and those are not accepted as valid.

Really? I did not know that. How curious.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You made mention of being guided by the Holy Spirit at times… and I believe it was in relation to when reading the Bible.

The question is: If you believe that you are being guided by the Holy Spirit, how do you know with certainty that it is specifically the Holy Spirit, and not another spirit…even one of a nefarious nature?

Its a serious question.

OK - so, how does the CC, for its part, know this ? No Christians are better off in regard to the element of uncertainty here than any others. It would be easy to suggest that the Church’s life is evidence of its having been very badly deceived , & that Christ was a false prophet & deceiver: so that we ought to become Jews again​

 

[guanophore]

Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.

What you have written here is false.

Leeann is absolutely correct. We see this clearly in this partial quote from the papal bull in 1302 by pope Boniface –
"UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins,…

You have both misunderstood the Catholic teaching, I am sorry. If you wish to cling to your errant view, that is your privilege. God has created us with free will, and we are all privileged by His grace to reject His Revelation of Himself.

 

[guanophore]

But that’s not what N_OrangeKnight says? And I believe that poster is Catholic.
He/she just says that it has to be Trinitarian/water, which a lot of other churches do,

Yes, I am in agreement with OrangeKnight and JMJ.

no mention of the intent of becoming a member of the Catholic church – or the need to do so.

It is you that is erroneously inserting this claim.

Jesus only founded One Church. He only has One Body. Therefore, all members of His One Body are members of His One Church. The Catholic Church teaches that not all members of His One Body are identifiable as members of the visible manifestation of His Church on earth. It is only you that makes this false claim. Well, you and ja4, and perhaps other misinformed anti-Catholic persons.

Whereas another poster - Jmj_Coder offers more in line to what you state with regards to “accomplish what the Church does” (intent)….become a member of the Catholic church, in order for it to be considered “valid” by them.

The intent to accomplish what the Church does (make persons members of the One Body of Christ by uniting the baptized to Him in His death and resurrection) does not necessarily make them a visible member of His Church.

This is the “erroneous information” that you were directly responding.

What is erroneous about the statement I posted that you directly responded too above?

"Leeann:

Being a member in good standing in the Catholic church is not necessary for salvation - but the church claims it is.

The Catholic Church does not make this claim. You have misunderstood the Catholic teaching.

And He does, in all churches that baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit. The point I was making, was in regards to the Catholic church claiming that they alone have the “valid” way of administering His Grace,

The Catholic Church does not make this claim. You have misunderstood the Catholic teaching.

which would then make any other churches’ baptisms “invalid” I guess – even if they use water and baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit, because unless the people that were baptized at any other church actually leave that church and become a member of the Catholic church – they are not considered a part of the Body of Christ – and since they are not a member of the Catholic church – they cannot obtain salvation. Is that a better way of explaining it?

No. Not a bit. There is only One Body, One Faith, One Church. All who are validly baptized are members of it.

Could you please clarify **why **you believe it to be false?

The Catholic Church recognizes that the Spirit of God works through other ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself. Although we believe that all those joined to Christ are members of His one body, by default, those who are not in unity with the Apostles’ Teaching are improperly joined. This is why we refer to them as “separated brethren”. This imperfect union prevents them from being, as you have asserted “in good standing” in the Catholic Church.

www.vatican website

Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
… teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter.

There is only One Body, One Church.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry – does that mean “No” that I’ve made an error in understanding it this way – or “No” they are not considered to be members of the Body of Christ.

The Apostles taught that baptism is the normative means by which people are brought into the One Body of Christ. While we recognize that God is able to join anyone to Himself, and is not confined to the sacraments, He gave us baptism as the means by which we are “born again by water and spirit”, joined with HIs death and resurrection,and made members of His Body. All who are then validly baptized we are to recognize as members of His One Body. There are members of His Body that we may not recognize as such. This is why He taught us not to judge, and to allow the wheat and tares to grow together until the harvest, when the angels would separate them.

So you don’t believe what you posted???

Jesus taught us what is considered a valid baptism. It must have proper manner and form. Encompassed within that proper manner and form is that it intends what the Church does. The Church teaches that a heretic or infidel can administer a valid baptism.

Baptism does not necessarily mean that one is in “good standing” as you have erroneously asserted, with the Catholic Church.

With regards to these verses, I’m assuming you mean in relation to the Apostles and to the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession, meaning that the church(s) back then was(were) considered to be the same as the Catholic church as we know it today.

The doctrine is the same. The outward appearance is not. It is about as different as a large tree from a mustard seed.

I don’t believe they relate just specifically to the Catholic church as we know it today, or even as it was known after the Council of Nicea. But that they relate to all churches that are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

When do you believe they became invalid?

1 Corinthians 3: V10 -11

[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The verses that you’ve posted - stated by Jesus were directed to His Apostles, giving them the authority to go out and do what He had intended them to do - and they did – the others were instructions given to believers/churches in how they should deal with situations when they arose.

Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Those who are not proceeding from this Christ appointed authority have none, for all authority comes from God.

 

[Leeann]

Posted guanophore:
You have both misunderstood the Catholic teaching, I am sorry. If you wish to cling to your errant view, that is your privilege. God has created us with free will, and we are all privileged by His grace to reject His Revelation of Himself.

Our free will and His grace to reject teachings that are not His, because we are commanded by His authority, through the teachings of His Apostles to follow HIS truth.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
no mention of the intent of becoming a member of the Catholic church – or the need to do so.

Response guanophore:
It is you that is erroneously inserting this claim.

Jesus only founded One Church. He only has One Body. Therefore, all members of His One Body are members of His One Church. The Catholic Church teaches that not all members of His One Body are identifiable as members of the visible manifestation of His Church on earth. It is only you that makes this false claim. Well, you and ja4, and perhaps other misinformed anti-Catholic persons.

No…that is what **you **say on my behalf.

I believe and have stated, that all members of HIS church – His one body – are identifiable and very visible in the lives of all true and faithful believers, no matter what Christian church/denomination they belong too.

In your statement above, you say,” The Catholic Church teaches that not all members of His One Body are identifiable as members of the visible manifestation of His Church on earth.
You fail to carry on with the “condition” that the Catholic church teaches – that being - until these separated brethren return to the Catholic church – in full communion – that they will not be able to obtain salvation.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
And He does, in all churches that baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit. The point I was making, was in regards to the Catholic church claiming that they alone have the “valid” way of administering His Grace,

Response guanophore:
The Catholic Church does not make this claim. You have misunderstood the Catholic teaching.

Too “pat” a reply guanophore!

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
which would then make any other churches’ baptisms “invalid” I guess – even if they use water and baptize in the name of The Father/The Son/The Holy Spirit, because unless the people that were baptized at any other church actually leave that church and become a member of the Catholic church – they are not considered a part of the Body of Christ – and since they are not a member of the Catholic church – they cannot obtain salvation. Is that a better way of explaining it?

Response guanophore:
No. Not a bit. There is only One Body, One Faith, One Church. All who are validly baptized are members of it.

The Catholic Church recognizes that the Spirit of God works through other ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself. Although we believe that all those joined to Christ are members of His one body, by default, those who are not in unity with the Apostles’ Teaching are improperly joined. This is why we refer to them as “separated brethren”. This imperfect union prevents them from being, as you have asserted “in good standing” in the Catholic Church.

What makes you think that the Catholic church of today in any way represents the Apostles’ teachings???
If all those joined in Christ are members of His body…who have become so because they believed that He came and shed His precious blood for all mankind and obeyed and were baptized …… who is the Catholic church to consider them “separated brethren” – or “members by default” . Is His blood sacrifice not sufficient enough for them, for THIS is the true, pure “gospel message” that the Apostles preached and taught…not that of church membership in order to obtain salvation.

www.vatican website

Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church

**838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

… teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter.

guanophore:
There is only One Body, One Church.

And that would be all true and faithful believers in any denomination/church that have received and believed and been baptized in the name of the Father/Son/HS, as instructed by the Apostles who never state that “the/a church (in this case the Catholic church) “is necessary for salvation”.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I’m sorry – does that mean “No” that I’ve made an error in understanding it this way – or “No” they are not considered to be members of the Body of Christ.

**Response guanophore:**The Apostles taught that baptism is the normative means by which people are brought into the One Body of Christ. While we recognize that God is able to join anyone to Himself, and is not confined to the sacraments, He gave us baptism as the means by which we are “born again by water and spirit”, joined with HIs death and resurrection,and made members of His Body. All who are then validly baptized we are to recognize as members of His One Body. There are members of His Body that we may not recognize as such. This is why He taught us not to judge, and to allow the wheat and tares to grow together until the harvest, when the angels would separate them.

Taught you not to judge!?!!
The Catholic church has already “judged” and claimed for itself to be “the” church, the one body of Christ Jesus.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

With regards to these verses, I’m assuming you mean in relation to the Apostles and to the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession, meaning that the church(s) back then was(were) considered to be the same as the Catholic church as we know it today.

Response guanophore:
The doctrine is the same. The outward appearance is not. It is about as different as a large tree from a mustard seed.

What doctrine is the same? Would that include all the new dogmas that have been incorporated, such as the Marian dogmas that have successfully watered down the efficacy of Christ’s blood sacrifice and confused the many members of the Catholic church as to in whom they should be going directly too for all sufficient grace in times of need, for all sufficient understanding and comfort and for all intercession to God the Father?

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
I don’t believe they relate just specifically to the Catholic church as we know it today, or even as it was known after the Council of Nicea. But that they relate to all churches that are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Response guanophore:
When do you believe they became invalid?

The quote you’ve posted and are referring too above, is in relation to scripture verses that were posted by another Catholic poster, who asked me what I thought or made of them, I answered as to what I thought the poster was implying – that being that the scripture verses substantiated the “claims” of the Catholic church as being “the” church.

In relation to your question as to when I believe “they became invalid” – I don’t believe the scripture verses themselves ever became invalid ( or ever will)….but I do believe the use of them to try to add credence to the “claim” that the Catholic church makes about itself is “invalid”.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

1 Corinthians 3: V10 -11

[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The verses that you’ve posted - stated by Jesus were directed to His Apostles, giving them the authority to go out and do what He had intended them to do - and they did – the others were instructions given to believers/churches in how they should deal with situations when they arose.

Response guanophore:
Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and they to their successors. Those who are not proceeding from this Christ appointed authority have none, for all authority comes from God.

Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and their successors, to preach and teach the “gospel message”…to baptize in the name of the Father/Son/HS and to establish and build the church on that message….and on nothing else.

The foundation of His gospel message that the Apostles taught, was based solely on Jesus’ sacrifice for all mankind, by belief in Him as man/God born of a virgin, by His teachings, by His blood sacrifice at His death and by His resurrection….nothing more….nothing added to it for means of salvation, such as membership to any one particular church, such as the
need of believing in a “co” –“ anything (co-medeatrix,etc.) for this to be accomplished.
The gospel message was about HIM and HIS blood sacrifice.

ANY church that would veer away or dilute this “gospel message” is considered to be “another gospel” and not to be accepted. Any “claimed authority” would be null and void against what He commissioned the Apostles to do and what indeed they did at that time.

 

[guanophore]

Our free will and His grace to reject teachings that are not His, because we are commanded by His authority, through the teachings of His Apostles to follow HIS truth.

I did not mean to imply that there would not be consequences for your choices.

I believe and have stated, that all members of HIS church – His one body – are identifiable and very visible in the lives of all true and faithful believers, no matter what Christian church/denomination they belong too.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. God has ordained that you may embrace any beliefs your heart desires.

In your statement above, you say,” The Catholic Church teaches that not all members of His One Body are identifiable as members of the visible manifestation of His Church on earth.

You fail to carry on with the “condition” that the Catholic church teaches – that being - until these separated brethren return to the Catholic church – in full communion – that they will not be able to obtain salvation.

That is because the Church does not teach this. When I am on CAF, I work very hard to represent Church teaching.

Too “pat” a reply guanophore!

I don’t know what else to tell you, Leeann. You have articulated your conviction that the Catholic Church teaches something that the Catholic Church does not teach.

What makes you think that the Catholic church of today in any way represents the Apostles’ teachings???

Decades of intense prayer and study.
Leeann;4334050:

If all those joined in Christ are members of His body…who have become so because they believed that He came and shed His precious blood for all mankind and obeyed and were baptized …… who is the Catholic church to consider them “separated brethren” – or “members by default” . Is His blood sacrifice not sufficient enough for them, for THIS is the true, pure “gospel message” that the Apostles preached and taught…not that of church membership in order to obtain salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches that the blood sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for all. Not all avail themselves of the benefits of His passion and death. Jesus only founded One Body. He ordained that there should be unity in that Body. It is sin that prevents this unity from being manifest on the earth. Sin separates us from Christ, and from one another.

www.vatican website

Catechsim of the Catholic Church
Part One
The Profession of Faith
Article 9 – I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church

**838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

Is your beef with this that you believe all the Protestant sects should be considered equal to the Church founded by Christ?

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

… teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:

the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter.

I am not sure why you are posting this. Are you implying that something I said was not in agreement with this passage?

And that would be all true and faithful believers in any denomination/church that have received and believed and been baptized in the name of the Father/Son/HS, as instructed by the Apostles who never state that “the/a church (in this case the Catholic church) “is necessary for salvation”.

The Apostles understood that there was only One Church, and that it is Catholic. They held to the unity of the Body. They are all scandalized I am sure by our separations an schisms. Remember the four marks of the Church that we received from the Apostles, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. The one church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. We are not to be separated from the foundation.

 

[guanophore]

Taught you not to judge!?!!
The Catholic church has already “judged” and claimed for itself to be “the” church, the one body of Christ Jesus.

No, the application of the term “judged” in this context means to condemn. The Catholic Church condemns no one. We recognize that this is up to God, and that only He can see the heart. Further, the Church does not “claim for itself” anything. All that the Church has and is comes from God. Jesus built the Church, Jesus appointed the teaching authority, Jesus committed the care of the flock, Jesus ordained the manner in which discipline was to occur. Jesus sent His Spirit to guide the Church into all Truth. These things are all clearly recorded in Scripture.

What doctrine is the same?

You might benefit from a study on the history of the creeds.
Leeann;4334050:

Would that include all the new dogmas that have been incorporated, such as the Marian dogmas that have successfully watered down the efficacy of Christ’s blood sacrifice and confused the many members of the Catholic church as to in whom they should be going directly too for all sufficient grace in times of need, for all sufficient understanding and comfort and for all intercession to God the Father?

Wow. you certainly seem to have a lot of emotional thinking about this. I am mystified how any of the Marian doctrines “water down the efficacy of Christ’s blood”. I have never heard of this before, and it does not make any sense to me. It is not possible to take anything away from the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

You also seem to erroneously believe that asking for the intercession of others is somehow 'opposed" to supplication to God.

 In relation to your question as to when I believe “they became invalid” – I don’t believe the scripture verses themselves ever became invalid ( or ever will)….but I do believe the use of them to try to add credence to the “claim” that the Catholic church makes about itself  is “invalid”.

You seem to affirm that the NT Church had a valid authority to pen the scriptures, to preserve them, and to canonize them. At some point after that, it seems, you believe that this authority was taken away from the church. I was wondering when this happened.

Jesus gave His authority to the Apostles, and their successors, to preach and teach the “gospel message”…to baptize in the name of the Father/Son/HS and to establish and build the church on that message….and on nothing else.

We are in agreement on this point. For some reason, you seem to think that Mary should be left out of the gospel message, even though the Apostles included her.

The foundation of His gospel message that the Apostles taught, was based solely on Jesus’ sacrifice for all mankind, by belief in Him as man/God born of a virgin, by His teachings, by His blood sacrifice at His death and by His resurrection….nothing more….nothing added to it for means of salvation, such as membership to any one particular church, such as the need of believing in a “co” –“ anything (co-medeatrix,etc.) for this to be accomplished.

It is a mystery to me why some people seem to want to make a readers digest version of the gospel. The Catholic Church did not “add” anything. Reformers started taking things out, and have continued to do this for the last 500 years. Each generation that departs a little further from Apostolic Tradition loses more of the Gospel. We now have supposed Christians saying that baptism has nothing to do with water!

The gospel message was about HIM and HIS blood sacrifice.

ANY church that would veer away or dilute this “gospel message” is considered to be “another gospel” and not to be accepted. Any “claimed authority” would be null and void against what He commissioned the Apostles to do and what indeed they did at that time.

Well, we are in agreement on that point.

 

[Leeann]

Hi RobHom!

There’s nothing more I can add to my answer to your “thread” question here.

As you can see, this thread has gotten off topic from what you orginially posted, in fact both guanophore and I are already discussing the same thing about the church/doctrine/authority in a completely different thread now.

Seems senseless to be doing the same in two different threads!

So I bid you adieu in here! :choocho:

 

[planten]

**I am a Muslim. The discussion concerns us also. We have a belief about this matter of the coming of Holy Spirit (HS). But we do not say that HS is God. WE do not say that Jesus is God. Only God is God. HS is an angel called Gabriel mentioned in the bible too, His duty is to bring messages from God to persons. In Quran, it is written that Jesus was aided by the Holy Spirit.

Some people may feel that HS does not visit any one now. The prime duty of the Holy Spirit was to bring messages to the messengers (Prophets). But HS also used to bring messages to the non prophets.

So according to the first post (#1), there is every possibility that some one is visited by the Holy Spirit. The possibility is there. Only one has to ask and judge whether it is the holy spirit or some other thought matter of the mind.

I may look into more information about this subject.**

 

[guanophore]

I am a Muslim. The discussion concerns us also.
I may look into more information about this subject.

This sounds like a capital idea! May I suggest the book of Genesis for starters?