Lefebvre´s "Letter to Confused Catholics" is awesome!

[Magnus467]

foxscape;5332698:

santodomingo;5332122:

Please, someone give me a reasoned answer why the Archbishop´s conclusions are wrong. I genuinely want to understand why Pope Benedict entered a mosque and prayed with muslim leaders during his visit to the Holy Land last month.

I have prayed with non-catholics before. It does not mean I accept their beliefs. Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, so do we. They may have an extremely erroneous interpretation, but are they not praying to God, creator and Father? When it all comes down to it, I am going to accept the HIGHEST teaching authority of the Church over a random, disobedient bishop’s letter.

 

[weepixie71]

Yes, there’s a ring of truth in Lefebvre’s letter. My parish priest has given a few parishioners pause at some of the things he has said. Many have left not that there is any notice because it is a huge church. I haven’t been supportive of all the changes made since Vatican II.

I assume he was excommunicated because he wasn’t obedient to the Pope.

I have problems with him because of Bishop Williamson. I totally disagree with him re. his anti-semitism. Simultanelously, I don’t understand why, after all these years, the Vatican wasn’t aware that Williamson was a loose canon. I don’t believe his excommunication should have been lifted until he renounced his anit-semitic beliefs.

i could be wrong on this so if i am some one please correct me.
the sspx was started before vatican II. cardinal ratzinger gave permission to lefebvre to consecrate on bishop to help his society. instead lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops. the congregation for bishops said doing this was schismatic. lefebvre disagreed because these the men involved have not separated themselves from Rome and therefore not schismatic.

as far as bishop williamson goes. anti semitic views have nothing to do with dogma. so to punish a catholic bishop for something that has nothing to do with the catholic faith would not be right. if you dont live near aschwitz or areas around there then i think it is harder for us to judge why he thinks the way they do. for instance did you know that the Jews are very upset that there is a cross raised outside aschwitz in memory of priests, nuns, and other catholics and christians killed there? since it has been raised jews have been fighting to have it removed. it has to be guarded by Catholic volunteers. it sounds to me that jews want everyone to respect what happened to them but they do not feel they should have to respect others that suffered and were killed there aslo. i am not anti semitic, but bishop williamson did raise some good points. he even said he would love to be wrong and he wishes someone would show him where he is mistaken. no one has come forward. not one jew came forward to show him he is wrong. so if no one corrects him then… .

 

[foxscape]

foxscape;5332698:

santodomingo;5332122:

I think we are going off topic here, but I can´t let you get away with this smear on Spanish history. Your sweeping statement that “the native people of South America remain deeply marginalized”, is simply not true. It is

true of the US, where tourists travel to artificially created reserves to see native indians, like some kind of circus attraction. In Latin America the majority of the continent´s inhabitants descend from the natives. In North America there was a systematic extermination of the natives, which never happened in Latin America under Spanish and Portuguese (catholic) rule. It is thanks to anti-catholic propaganda that so many people have this notion of a fictitious extermination of natives in Latin America 500 years ago, and forget about a real genocide that ocurred in North America less than 200 years ago.

Concerning evangelization of the native americans Queen Isabel the Catholic wrote the following: “Do not force anyone to become a Christian, but instruct them well in the Catholic Faith, for it is so beautiful, they will readily embrace it.”

This remarkable queen (who is in the process of beatification) wrote a Testament in 1504, entreating her husband, Fernando the Catholic and her daughter, Juana, to treat the natives fairly, and reminded them that the reason God had given Spain these new territories was for the spreading of the Gospel. I quote from this document: “Do not tolerate that any of the indians …receive any ill treatment in their persons or their property. Rather ensure that they are treated fairly, and if any abuse has been committed make amends.”

I don´t lump all “christian settlers” into the same bag. The evangelization of Latin America in the 15 and 16 centuries by Spanish missionaries has nothing to do with the genocide of the native americans at the hands of protestant settlers in North America in the 19 century.

Yeah the Spaniards were really great to the natives… I seem to remember a certain fellow by the name of Cortes, he was one of the best. He really treated the natives of south and central America with respect. I think Pizarro was also one of the nicest guys… just so kind to the natives. While I do know of some Spanish legal documents that forbid the ill treatment of natives, for example the *Leyes de Burgos * a document that includes clauses that ordered that all natives catechized. So while Queen Isabel may have been a peach (she really wasn’t since she was one of the presiding monarchs during the brutality known as the Spanish Inquisition) the generally Spanish approach to natives was fairly brutal and did, in fact, involved forced conversion.

Lefebvre is a fool on a fool’s errand to turn back the clock and bring back beliefs that led to some of the darkest periods of European and Catholic history. That is what I have been trying to get at with these examples. Idealizing the past and pretending that everything was better before the Second Vatican Council is just plain foolish. There are certainly problems in the Catholic Church, but they cannot be solved by building a bridge to the 12th century (Sorry Dr. Postman). Frankly there just aren’t enough people out there interested in crossing that particular bridge.

That’s it from me on this thread. Cheers.

JRB

 

[I_Believe]

Lefebvre is a fool on a fool’s errand to turn back the clock and bring back beliefs that led to some of the darkest periods of European and Catholic history.

JRB

No worse than clinging to 1054 is it ?

 

[123defiant]

I’m not SSPX but having read Lefebvre’s letter I’m fully convinced that a cause for his cannonization should be considered.

 

[santodomingo]

i’m not sspx but having read lefebvre’s letter i’m fully convinced that a cause for his cannonization should be considered.

WOW!

BTW, nice to see someone from Britain posting.

 

[alacoque]

Thomas, the only statistics I have seen posted here are for ~1960 and ~2000. Two points do not make a trend, let alone suggest that anything “peaked” immediately before the Council. Do you have additional statistics for time prior to ~1960? Or are you connecting two dots and calling it a trend?

Chris

JK:

I agree 1000% with your comment/point, having, myself, been there ‘in the day’ (I was born in the mid 1940’s). The zenith, peak, heyday, whatever of Catholicism in America was nowhere near the 60’s! Like all the rest of iconic American culture and practice, it happened viz ‘the faith’ in the 1950’s - (the "Happy Days of Catholicism ?? ) There was a tad of spillover from the 30’s / 40’s, but the 50’s was when the whole! culture was Catholic (not Christian, mind you, but Catholic!) - including Hollywood and Hollywood actors, 99.9% of the movie, entertainment industry, the media, and every other major element of American culture!

The blockbuster ‘religious’ (read: Catholic) movies were all of that era: Ben Hur - '59, The 10 Commandments - '56, The Robe - '53, Quo Vadis - '51, The Story of Our Lady of Fatima - '52 and on and on. Just prior to that time and leading into it you had the favorites like The Bells of St Mary’s - '45, Going My Way - '44 and Boy’s Town - '38.

Then there was the unheard of popularity of Fr. Peyton of The Family Rosary Hour (radio) that popularized the slogan still used today: The Family That Prays Together, Stays Together. These were the days when the major movie stars not only starred in the movies I mentioned but did advertisements for Fr. Peyton and his radio-Rosary - as well as actually being there (often being filmed doing the radio broadcast) PRAYING the Rosary with Fr. and the radio audience. Many, many of these ‘stars’ actually WERE Catholic!

Priests, bishops, cardinals and the like were the ‘glitterati’ of the '50’s - at awards (Hollywood) dinners and at the Academy awards. (Mel Gibson didn’t do anything new!!)

So, I definitely support and confirm your notion and would further say that the 60’s, if anything, were the beginning of the end, NOT in the least any kind of zenith, peak or height of ‘practice’ of the faith. We were in the midst of ‘revolutions’ of all kinds in the 60’s and were waaaay too cool to be Catholic or to “slavishly” follow, much less overtly demonstrate our faith as part of our lifestyle! Heaven (sic) forbid!!! We had revolutions (sexual freedom among others), we had Vietnam, we were burning bras and draft cards and deciding our Catholic faith wasn’t ‘our daddy’s’ Catholic faith anymore.

Ripe we were for Vatican II - and, really, not Vatican II, per se, itself, but ripe for the dissenters (what the heck, “dissenting” was a way of life and practically a profession! by that time!) who hijacked V-2 and used it to move their own agenda. The pity of it was that the bulk of the people who were hoodwinked WERE those of ‘our daddy’s faith’…because they were the only ones not in on the joke/secret/plan! The dissenters (spirit of V-2 types) knew exactly what they were doing (just like they do today), but they pulled off the grand shell-game quite successfully.

So, to compare 1960 to 2000 and come up with some kind of positive ‘trend’ is meaningless. ANYTHING compared to the 60’s would show a positive trend - without really being a ‘positive’ thing in and of itself.

V-2 (when studied in itself) stands on it’s own as a movement of the Spirit of God, as do its documents (when actually read) - but the shell game is STILL going on and it’s stunningly amazing how many people STILL don’t “get it”. It’s a darned good thing that the Church is the Body of Christ and graced with all the charisms and guarantees she is graced with, or we might be tempted to worry.

Anyway, it’s my humble opinion that Lefebvre wasn’t seeing anything that a lot of the rest of us were seeing and, though it was troubling, it certainly wasn’t “the worst of times”. A failure to grasp the larger, grand, historical landscape on which these things are playing out can lead to erroneous interpretations (to say nothing of a lot of headaches). A little time spent reading and digesting the early Church Fathers would have taken care of the vacuum many (who decided the ‘real’ Church no longer existed) were living in.

I’ve gone far afield, though, so I’ll cease and desist… - I just wanted to bolster your point and confirm, as someone who was there, that there was no Catholic time like the 50’s Catholic time! (bad syntax but you get the drift).

God be with you (as He is with His Church…always and forever!)

 

[shubbysr]

I recently relocated from a large midwest city to a small southern town, (in the bible belt).To my pleasant surprise I found that our parish has gone back to the basics. It is almost like we use the original catechism, that you do not see much as we used to. I definitely am not a confused catholic as we have gone “back to the basics”.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Let us not forget Fulton J. Sheen.

He was on prime time from 1951 to 1957; won an Emmy in 1952.

aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/title/Archbishop-Fulton-Sheen/FuseAction/store.displayArticle/article/256/

 

[Bro_Joshua]

I agree that a very large portion of Latin America is Native or mixed Native and Ethnic. However, I have run across a number of Mexican seminarians and some teachers from various Central and South American countires that told me the Indigenous in their country (or a specific region or state) have vanished over a hundred years ago.

I am certain this is not represetative of what the majority of folks south of the USA borders actually believes, but I find it suprising to find at least a few professional folks, clergy, religious, seminarians and teachers repeating such things in this day and age.

Rights of Indignenous in Mexico, Central and South America are being challenged. In some spectacular cases the rights are upheld, and in other cases the militaries have squashed those rights. There are several treaty issues in Mexico that the Mexican government (just like here in the USA and Canada) goes to great lengths to deny, outspend the Natives to keep it out of court, or uses brute force and threats.

Even folks of strong Indigenous heritage insist that they themselves are a vanished, non existant race. They were taught in school that they don’t exist, and they believe it.

 

[DonLeon]

SANTODOMINGO:

I have read your post and agree with just about everything you have said except for your comment about Judaism being a false religion. IT IS NOT. Remember, Christianity is a
fulfillment of Judaism. We are all spiritual Jews. Judaism was/is inspired of God, while Buddahism and Islam are man made. Although Jews today reject Christ, they are not rejected by God and are still His original Chosen People and sooner or later with our prayers they will wake up to the fact that Jesus is THE Messiah and the Son of God.
Meanwhile, shalom chevarim, God Bless.

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Al_Masetti]

SANTODOMINGO:

I have read your post and agree with just about everything you have said except for your comment about Judaism being a false religion. IT IS NOT. Remember, Christianity is a
fulfillment of Judaism. We are all spiritual Jews. Judaism was/is inspired of God, while Buddahism and Islam are man made. Although Jews today reject Christ, they are not rejected by God and are still His original Chosen People and sooner or later with our prayers they will wake up to the fact that Jesus is THE Messiah and the Son of God.
Meanwhile, shalom chevarim, God Bless.

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Excellent book:

Salvation Is from the Jews: The Role of Judaism in Salvation History (Paperback)
by Roy H. Schoeman

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

Also available from EWTN bookstore

 

[Al_Masetti]

SANTODOMINGO:

I have read your post and agree with just about everything you have said except for your comment about Judaism being a false religion. IT IS NOT. Remember, Christianity is a
fulfillment of Judaism. We are all spiritual Jews. Judaism was/is inspired of God, while Buddahism and Islam are man made. Although Jews today reject Christ, they are not rejected by God and are still His original Chosen People and sooner or later with our prayers they will wake up to the fact that Jesus is THE Messiah and the Son of God.
Meanwhile, shalom chevarim, God Bless.

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Excellent book:

amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Role-Judaism-History/dp/089870975X/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

Also available from EWTN bookstore

 

[santodomingo]

SANTODOMINGO:

I have read your post and agree with just about everything you have said except for your comment about Judaism being a false religion. IT IS NOT. Remember, Christianity is a
fulfillment of Judaism. We are all spiritual Jews. Judaism was/is inspired of God, while Buddahism and Islam are man made. Although Jews today reject Christ, they are not rejected by God and are still His original Chosen People and sooner or later with our prayers they will wake up to the fact that Jesus is THE Messiah and the Son of God.
Meanwhile, shalom chevarim, God Bless.

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thanks for the correction. I agree that judaism is not a false religion in the sense that Islam or Buddhism are. However, many of the jews who have refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah have strayed into all kinds of aberations: black magic, freemasonry, communism, philosophical atheism, etc.

What do you think about Pope Benedict praying in a mosque? Do you think this kind of thing is good? Do you agree with Lefebvre about religious liberty?

 

[aicirt]

Thanks for the correction. I agree that judaism is not a false religion in the sense that Islam or Buddhism are. However, many of the jews who have refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah have strayed into all kinds of aberations: black magic, freemasonry, communism, philosophical atheism, etc.

What do you think about Pope Benedict praying in a mosque? Do you think this kind of thing is good? Do you agree with Lefebvre about religious liberty?

Jews don’t accept Jesus as the Messiah. If they did, they’d be Christians. Yet the majority of Jews who don’t accept Jesus don’t practice black magic, aren’t Masons, aren’t communists, and aren’t atheists.

I think Pope Benedicts prayer at a mosque was a gesture. I wasn’t upset that Pope John Paul II visited a Jewish synagogue in Rome. I am concerned about a priest living in a Buddist monastery in Tibet for a couple of months to impove his meditation skills.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

santodomingo;5334333:

foxscape;5332698:

Yeah the Spaniards were really great to the natives… I seem to remember a certain fellow by the name of Cortes, he was one of the best. He really treated the natives of south and central America with respect. I think Pizarro was also one of the nicest guys… just so kind to the natives. While I do know of some Spanish legal documents that forbid the ill treatment of natives, for example the *Leyes de Burgos *

a document that includes clauses that ordered that all natives catechized. So while Queen Isabel may have been a peach (she really wasn’t since she was one of the presiding monarchs during the brutality known as the Spanish Inquisition) the generally Spanish approach to natives was fairly brutal and did, in fact, involved forced conversion.

JRB
There was nothing wrong with the Spainish Inquisition. Spain was protected from heresy becasue of it, while the rest of Europe was be torn apart by heresy. Queen Isabel was a great Catholic queen!

 

[DonLeon]

I’m an “Old Time” traditionalist and have read Archbishop LeFebvre’s letter and I agree with him wholeheartedly. But, he did disobey the pope and should not have left the church. He should have fought from within. Instead he took the course that Luther did and broke away

Imagine how much better it would be today, with greater piety and less liberalism, if he had stayed and fought. He would have had John Paul II and Benedict XVI on his side. I guess no one was listening to the Holy Spirit at the time and everyone went their own way.
God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem.

 

[DonLeon]

santodomingo;5334333:

foxscape;5332698:

Yeah the Spaniards were really great to the natives… I seem to remember a certain fellow by the name of Cortes, he was one of the best. He really treated the natives of south and central America with respect. I think Pizarro was also one of the nicest guys… just so kind to the natives. While I do know of some Spanish legal documents that forbid the ill treatment of natives, for example the *Leyes de Burgos *

a document that includes clauses that ordered that all natives catechized. So while Queen Isabel may have been a peach (she really wasn’t since she was one of the presiding monarchs during the brutality known as the Spanish Inquisition) the generally Spanish approach to natives was fairly brutal and did, in fact, involved forced conversion.

Lefebvre is a fool on a fool’s errand to turn back the clock and bring back beliefs that led to some of the darkest periods of European and Catholic history. That is what I have been trying to get at with these examples. Idealizing the past and pretending that everything was better before the Second Vatican Council is just plain foolish. There are certainly problems in the Catholic Church, but they cannot be solved by building a bridge to the 12th century (Sorry Dr. Postman). Frankly there just aren’t enough people out there interested in crossing that particular bridge.

That’s it from me on this thread. Cheers.

JRB

Too bad you’re so misinformed about queen Isabella and the Spanish Inquisition. Learn the truth. Read the book “In Triumph’s Wake” by Julia Gagliardia, St. Martin’s Press, N.Y.
The book is very well researched with sufficient bibliography to back up all the facts!

Also, dear friend, if you would take time to read a thorough history of The Catholic Church, and not a biased one. you would also know and understand about the era you call the “dark period”. God Bless

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bro_Joshua]

foxscape;5334788:

santodomingo;5334333:

Too bad you’re so misinformed about queen Isabella and the Spanish Inquisition. Learn the truth. Read the book “In Triumph’s Wake” by Julia Gagliardia, St. Martin’s Press, N.Y.
The book is very well researched with sufficient bibliography to back up all the facts!

Also, dear friend, if you would take time to read a thorough history of The Catholic Church, and not a biased one. you would also know and understand about the era you call the “dark period”. God Bless

                                                           :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Hey, come on (lol) - if some one wants to imagine their heritage as spotless, then cool.

More seriously: All our histories have great things, and stuff that’s not so noble. I think its called being human. Bartolome de la Casa was a saintly advocate of Indigenous rights along with Martin de Poures and Juan Mascias. But yes, there were those conquistadores taking what was not theirs to take by rights. Balanced history.

 

[EasterJoy]

There was nothing wrong with the Spainish Inquisition. Spain was protected from heresy becasue of it, while the rest of Europe was be torn apart by heresy. Queen Isabel was a great Catholic queen!

Nothing wrong? There was torture, there were forced conversions, and they expelled all the Jews from the country! Or do you hold with the theory that all of the artifacts in the inquisition museums are a hoax, then? (And please let no one drag in the fact that the Protestants used torture, too. Please don’t. It is not my intention to tar and feather the Church, nor Queen Isabel, for that matter. That is not my point.)

The truth is our weapon against heresy, not torture. They will know we belong to the Lord by how we love one another. C’mon, that is straight out of the Gospels.

Besides, Archbishop Lefebvre is not now nor has he ever mandated a return to torturing suspected enemies of the church! He just wants Catholics to be taught the truth, and to return to the traditions by which the living of the faith becomes intimately interwoven into daily life. The conversation is about what it means to be in the world without being of the world. We don’t have to drag Queen Isabella into this discussion. You may as well attack Orthodox Judaism based on what people in the Israeli military are willing to do to Palestinians in order to protect Israel. It is totally besides the point. Torture is not a necessary component of Orthodoxy.

As for Archbishop Lefebvre’s problems with the rest of the heirarchy, if the Holy Father is willing to mend that fence, let it be mended. What would have been, was.