Lefebvre´s "Letter to Confused Catholics" is awesome!

[DonLeon]

DonLeon;5342042:

foxscape;5334788:

Hey, come on (lol) - if some one wants to imagine their heritage as spotless, then cool.

More seriously: All our histories have great things, and stuff that’s not so noble. I think its called being human. Bartolome de la Casa was a saintly advocate of Indigenous rights along with Martin de Poures and Juan Mascias. But yes, there were those conquistadores taking what was not theirs to take by rights. Balanced history.

Yes, I agree. But why does all the blame go to Queen Isabella. Like ALL of the Spanish inquisition down through the ages is blamed on the Catholic Church (although the pope did allow it). Very few blame Torquemada.

:harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, I agree. But why does all the blame go to Queen Isabella. Like ALL of the Spanish inquisition down through the ages is blamed on the Catholic Church (although the pope did allow it). Very few blame Torquemada.

Exactly. And very few point out that the temptation to use power, when one has it, to browbeat or terrify enemies into compliance with one’s beliefs is a real one, and is fallen into cross-culturally.

Nevertheless, let us hope that no one wants a verbatim replay of the Spanish Inquisition! They may have meant well, but there was room for improvement, to put it extremely mildly.

Also, I think Pope Innocent came out against forced conversions centuries before the Spanish Inquisition, although he granted that a forced baptism still removes the stain of sin. (I suppose that to force someone to be baptized against their will and then to grant them no eternal advantage from that is really to add insult to injury!)

 

[Al_Masetti]

There were two sets of Crusades: one to the Holy Land and one to Spain.

The war with Islam in Spain lasted from AD 711 to AD 1492. That is a LONG war. After the Moors were defeated and sent back to North Africa where they had come from, there was a lot of political damage that had to be repaired. Thus among other mechanisms, the Inquisition. Some folks in Spain had sided with and assisted the Moors and there were questions regarding divided loyalty. The Inquisition was one effort to sort people out. Those taking false oaths or making false loyalty pledges or those creating disorder [it was easy for someone to claim they were having a religious experience and get people politically riled up] were subject to investigation and … if they were guilty … to punishment.

Keep in mind that in those days there really weren’t prisons of the kind that we have them today … giant warehouses in which the prisoners were supposed to reform themselves. So prisoners back then were either subject to execution or so some sort of corporal punishment.

What we do nowadays is assume that the conditions that exist today were extant back then. Which was not the case.

 

[FAB]

Having read over Archbishop LeFebvre’s letter, and have gorwn up the past Vatican II church, I see that was and his message is just wrong. What is unfortunate about Archbishop LeFebvre is that he did not seem to grasp of why the changes were needed. We can see the effects hundreds of years later after Martin Luther what happened because a single individual thought he was right and every one else wrong and chose to seperate instead staying in the Church and working for reform. The same is true for Archbishop LeFebvre. He could have waited to see if anything he was predicting would come true, but instead made the choice to go his own way. It is unfortunate that so many are still willing to follow his misdirected ideals.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Does anybody else, who is not a member of SSPX, also think that Archbishop Lefebvre´s “Letter to Confused Catholics” is an extraordinary, indeed prophetic piece of writing?

I think “A Bishop Speaks” is better though.​

I have read several threads about the SSPX here, but when I went to the source (the founder) I was agreeably surprised to discover that I agreed wholeheartedly with him. There were so many things he says that I hadn´t even managed to formulate coherently in my head, but when I read them they rang true. As George Orwell said, “a great writer tells you things you already knew”.

His explanation for the diminishing religiosity in the West I think is spot on. The spirit of reverence has all but disappeared from the Novus Ordo masses.

That can be put right. The older Mass could, & can now, be offered without reverence - ritual is not automatically reverent or irreverent: for the reverence (or its absence) depends on people’s attitudes. The old Mass could be offered for blasphemous purposes - the reformed Mass can be offered with great devotion. Neither is inherently reverent or irreverent; they are what people make of them.​

What differentiates a catholic Mass from a Lutheran service? In too many cases, almost nothing.

Is this last point a bad thing though ? ISTM we should never be afraid of being like other Christians; they, after all, pray - so are we not to ? If others worship God aright in some way, are we not to, lest we seem to be like them ? Surely we should be grateful to God that others respond to His grace so as to worship Him aright​

I´d be interested to hear what other traditionalists (not necessarily members of SSPX) think about this letter. I know at least half a dozen priests who have preached heresy in my presence, ranging from the denial of Purgatory, Hell, Judgement, sanctifying grace, the infallibility of Scripture, to the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Most heresies long predate the Council - so the fact of heresy today is no argument against it & its works. I could name you dozens of heretical clergy from the centuries before 1950. Including a lot of bishops. But what would that prove ? Precious little.​

BTW, not all that people call heresy, is. Sometimes - often - heresy is in the eye of the beholder.

Yet they are respected and promoted. Archbishop Lefebvre spoke the truth as has always been taught by the Church, and he was excommunicated. (I understand he was excommunicated for an act of disobedience.)

Disobedience that took the form of an act which had by that time been judged schismatic. Which is hardly a good example for a bishop to give.​

It just seems incredible that the one man who fought heresy with all his strength is considered a pariah in the Church.

There is no reason why a fighter against evil in the Church should not be the author of evil in it in a different form. Being against Arianism did not not prevent some of its opponents going astray in a different way.​

 

[Lisa44]

What do you think about Pope Benedict praying in a mosque? Do you think this kind of thing is good? Do you agree with Lefebvre about religious liberty?

I think its disturbing. I agree with DonLeon that Judaism and Islam have nothing in common despite what Muhammad claims about the Koran being from the god of Abraham it is not. If I was a Jew I’d be massively insulted by being put on par with Muslims. With that said, I find it very disturbing that the Pope does not speak honestly to members of the Islamic faith. I’m trying very hard to understand this new approach to false religions and its difficult.

 

[DonLeon]

I think its disturbing. I agree with DonLeon that Judaism and Islam have nothing in common despite what Muhammad claims about the Koran being from the god of Abraham it is not. If I was a Jew I’d be massively insulted by being put on par with Muslims. With that said, I find it very disturbing that the Pope does not speak honestly to members of the Islamic faith. I’m trying very hard to understand this new approach to false religions and its difficult.

Islam was modeled after Judaism (no eating of pork, etc.) because Muhammad was actually thrown out of a synagogue for irreverent practices before he decided to start “Islam”. Anyway, after studying Islam as best as I could, I have come to the conclusion that it is a political ideology, akin to socialism, with the trappings of a religion. The Moslems claim of Islam being a theocracy more or less proves my point.

I also agree with you as far as Benedict XVI goes. I have the utmost respect and love for him but do not understand his praying in a mosque.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Lisa44]

… I am concerned about a priest living in a Buddist monastery in Tibet for a couple of months to impove his meditation skills.

Are you speaking of Thomas Merton?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

What differentiates a catholic Mass from a Lutheran service? In too many cases, almost nothing.

Transubstantiation.

In no way is that “almost nothing.”

 

[CassiusLonginus]

SANTODOMINGO:

I have read your post and agree with just about everything you have said except for your comment about Judaism being a false religion. IT IS NOT. Remember, Christianity is a
fulfillment of Judaism. We are all spiritual Jews. Judaism was/is inspired of God, while Buddahism and Islam are man made.

So, are you saying that Judaism is still a true religion? Please explain, because your statements above contradict each other. You say Judaism is NOT a false religion, but then you continue to say that Christianity (Catholicism) is the fulfillment of Judaism. Then, to make matters worse you add in that Judaism “was/is” inspired of God.

If Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism, wouldn’t Judaism be a false religion these last 2000 years (especially since the pharisaical practice of Judaism is drastically different than the Judaism of Jesus’ time and earlier)? Or can a practicing Jew get to heaven in the same way a practicing Catholic can? Does God currently have two churches?

Although Jews today reject Christ, they are not rejected by God

Yeah, but who is rejected by God?

and are still His original Chosen People

They were His chosen people. Today we call them Catholics

and sooner or later with our prayers they will wake up to the fact that Jesus is THE Messiah and the Son of God.

God will convert “the Jews” as a people, but in the meantime they, just like everybody else on earth, are just individuals and must convert as individuals to go to heaven.

Every non-Catholic religion today is a false religion.

 

[EasterJoy]

So, are you saying that Judaism is still a true religion? Please explain, because your statements above contradict each other…

They were His chosen people. Today we call them Catholics

God will convert “the Jews” as a people, but in the meantime they, just like everybody else on earth, are just individuals and must convert as individuals to go to heaven.

Every non-Catholic religion today is a false religion.

The Catholic Church teaches that God has not and will never forsake His chosen people, the Jews. (This is not new. If you read the Epistles, St. Paul says the same.)

You seem to be teaching both that the Catholic Church is the depository of God’s inerrant truth, handed down from the Apostles and that Judaism is simply a false religion like all the other false religions, and that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

It seems you have put yourself in something of a Catch-22. Explain, please?

 

[CassiusLonginus]

The Catholic Church teaches that God has not and will never forsake His chosen people, the Jews. (This is not new. If you read the Epistles, St. Paul says the same.)

I never said that God has forsaken the Jews. God hasn’t forsaken anybody (which is why he sent His son to redeem all men)…I simply question whether the Jews are still “The Chosen People”. I thought that His chosen people are the ones who belong to his Church. If God’s Church is the Catholic Church, my question remains the same as before: Is Judaism still a “true religion”, or is Judaism, as it has been practiced for the last 2000 years a false religion? Catholicism is the road to heaven. Is Judaism another sure road to heaven? In other words, does God have two churches, and either is an acceptable vehicle to get to heaven (either the Catholic Church or Judaism)???

You seem to be teaching both that the Catholic Church is the depository of God’s inerrant truth, handed down from the Apostles and that Judaism is simply a false religion like all the other false religions, and that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

The Catholic Church is the depository of God’s inerrant truth, and that’s exactly the reason I’m questioning why Judaism wouldn’t be considered a false religion. Do they also have valid sacraments? Are they guided by the Holy Ghost? Are they indeed “God’s Chosen People” still? I thought that God’s chosen people, for the last 2000 years, were to be found in the Catholic Church, not in the synagogue.

It seems you have put yourself in something of a Catch-22. Explain, please?

Uh, what? I don’t know how I’ve put myself in a catch 22…It seems like the opposite to me. It seems like everybody is saying Judaism is not a false religion, yet at the same time I thought that Catholicism was the only true religion. So which is it, just Catholicism, or both Catholicism and Judaism are the true religions? Also, are God’s chosen people the folks who are today known as Jews, or are His chosen people the people that are today known as Catholics? Please explain.

 

[DonLeon]

So, are you saying that Judaism is still a true religion? Please explain, because your statements above contradict each other. You say Judaism is NOT a false religion, but then you continue to say that Christianity (Catholicism) is the fulfillment of Judaism. Then, to make matters worse you add in that Judaism “was/is” inspired of God.

If Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism, wouldn’t Judaism be a false religion these last 2000 years (especially since the pharisaical practice of Judaism is drastically different than the Judaism of Jesus’ time and earlier)? Or can a practicing Jew get to heaven in the same way a practicing Catholic can? Does God currently have two churches?

Yeah, but who is rejected by God?

They were His chosen people. Today we call them Catholics

God will convert “the Jews” as a people, but in the meantime they, just like everybody else on earth, are just individuals and must convert as individuals to go to heaven.

Every non-Catholic religion today is a false religion.

If we can believe St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans (which I do), I would suggest you read chapter 11 and understand it without trying to interpret it. And, also, did not God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews? This, then, would mean that their religion and worship is not false, but is not complete until they. as a complete nation, accept Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. Other than this, all other religions are false.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CassiusLonginus]

If we can believe St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans (which I do), I would suggest you read chapter 11 and understand it without trying to interpret it. And, also, did not God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews? This, then, would mean that their religion and worship is not false, but is not complete until they. as a complete nation, accept Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. Other than this, all other religions are false.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I always thought that the new covenant was the everlasting one. Either that, or they’re both everlasting but the Jews haven’t fulfilled their part of theirs for the last 2000 years.

 

[DonLeon]

I always thought that the new covenant was the everlasting one. Either that, or they’re both everlasting but the Jews haven’t fulfilled their part of theirs for the last 2000 years.

The second everlasting covenant was made for and with those Jews who accept(ed) Jesus
and for all the Gentiles who also accep(ed) Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.
Present day Jews are still under the first covenant and live under and by the Law. By God’s graces they are judged by the Law until all Jews recognize and admit Jesus IS the Messiah.

Many Jews are coming to Jesus in these days. The association of Hebrew American Catholics is doing a great job of bring our older brothers home. Shalom Chevarim.

                               :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CassiusLonginus]

The second everlasting covenant was made for and with those Jews who accept(ed) Jesus
and for all the Gentiles who also accep(ed) Jesus as the Messiah and the Son of God.
Present day Jews are still under the first covenant and live under and by the Law. By God’s graces they are judged by the Law until all Jews recognize and admit Jesus IS the Messiah.

Many Jews are coming to Jesus in these days. The association of Hebrew American Catholics is doing a great job of bring our older brothers home. Shalom Chevarim.

                               :harp:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

So outside of the Church there is salvation, which can be found in Judaism? If Jews are under the old law and are judged by the standards of the old law I really must ask whether it wouldn’t be just fine for Catholics to convert to Judaism and find their salvation there. Why do the Hebrew American Catholics convert Jews if Judaism is just as valid and good a vehicle for them to get to heaven???

I really don’t understand this. Why do Catholics pray for the conversion of the Jews (or is this not acceptable anymore)???

Can you site some Church docs that I can look at? I admit I thought that all religions were false religions in that the Catholic Church is the true faith. What gives?

 

[Magnus467]

I’m not SSPX but having read Lefebvre’s letter I’m fully convinced that a cause for his cannonization should be considered.

I hope you are kidding. A saint that has left Jesus’ Church?

 

[edwest2]

I was there for Vatican II. What changed? A new, smaller altar with the priest facing the congregation. Mass in English. There was a brief confusion about the reason for the change, but we were told that having the Mass in English would allow for our greater participation. Eventually, the requirement for not eating meat on Fridays was lifted. That’s it.

The real change occurred in 1968 when radicals and hippies took to the streets. By 1970, Time magazine had a cover story about religious leaving the Church. A coordinated attack on the family had begun. Kids were told to ignore parents, priests and nuns. Freedom was their cry. But freedom from what? Freedom from God. Smoke dope, have sex with anybody. It all started there. The sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake.

Peace,
Ed

 

[DonLeon]

So outside of the Church there is salvation, which can be found in Judaism? If Jews are under the old law and are judged by the standards of the old law I really must ask whether it wouldn’t be just fine for Catholics to convert to Judaism and find their salvation there. Why do the Hebrew American Catholics convert Jews if Judaism is just as valid and good a vehicle for them to get to heaven???

I really don’t understand this. Why do Catholics pray for the conversion of the Jews (or is this not acceptable anymore)???

Can you site some Church docs that I can look at? I admit I thought that all religions were false religions in that the Catholic Church is the true faith. What gives?

Is it then that all who are not Roman Catholics cannot attain salvation? What happens to them? Are they all condemmed to eternal fire? Our protestant brothers who do not have the fullness of truth as we have can still attain glory. So then, why not the Jews? It is
up to God in His mercy and grace to determine who is saved, not us. I recommend you read the writings and letters of Polycarp and Irineus. Remember, Judaism and Christianity
both have God as their source, all others are man made, which include the psuedo-Christian cults (Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Science, etc,) and are therefore
to be considered false. Also, we pray not only for the conversion of the Jews, but for all.

            :crossrc:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[DonLeon]

I was there for Vatican II. What changed? A new, smaller altar with the priest facing the congregation. Mass in English. There was a brief confusion about the reason for the change, but we were told that having the Mass in English would allow for our greater participation. Eventually, the requirement for not eating meat on Fridays was lifted. That’s it.

The real change occurred in 1968 when radicals and hippies took to the streets. By 1970, Time magazine had a cover story about religious leaving the Church. A coordinated attack on the family had begun. Kids were told to ignore parents, priests and nuns. Freedom was their cry. But freedom from what? Freedom from God. Smoke dope, have sex with anybody. It all started there. The sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake.

Peace,
Ed

Just my two cents worth on Vatican II. I remember that from the time I was a child (1933)
till the time of implementing the changes of Vatican II, the masses were always crowded. You had to get to church at least a half hour before mass before if you wanted a seat. The people stood along the walls, in the back and many time in the aisles. And, this was just not at one mass, this was at every mass. Depending on the parish, there would be four masses every Sunday. The 9:00 am mass was for children (teens too) and it also was crowded. And everyone dressed in their Sunday best. This was not only in cities, but in suburban communities too. At mass there was always a sense of piety. The sermons wer e always interesting and mostly concerned the salvation of your soul or a disertation on any of the Christian doctrines. When you left mass, you knew you had gone to mass. No
one was in a rush to leave. Many lingered for extra prayers.

Today, it is just the opposite. One mass, two at the most. Very few people. Majority of children and teens are sloppily dressed (parents don’t seem to care). Some of the females that come to church should be ashamed to present themselves to the Lord in their tight shorts and short mini-skirts and tubular tops without covering. There is no longer a sense of modesty or respect for the Lord. The sense of reverence is gone and the “homilies” most often are boring and political or financial in nature. Rare is the
congregation that doen’t rush to get out of church after mass leaving the feeling that “that’s over and done with, Let;s get out of here”.

Call me what you will, make whatever comments you want, but I still say Vatican II DID
NOT follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it almost ruined the church. Archbishop Lefevbre was right in his comments, but was wrong in disobeying the Pope and breaking away. Nuff said. God Bless,