Legalized prostitution

[utunumsint]

I just had a disturbing argument with some friends over the benefits of legalized prostitution (prost).

My friends made the following arguments:
1-Legalizing prost will regulate it as a trade, the women will be better protected, drug use will not be allowed, stds protection will be enforced.

I wasn’t really prepared, so on the fly I agued this:
R1-Do you think any parent wants their children to grow up to be a prostitute? Why? Would you like your own daughter or sons to become prostitutes? Why not?

This line of argumentation didn’t go very far. While he admited that he wouldn’t like his own children to aspire to such a career because there were so many better things they could be, he still maintained his position. He said prostitution is the oldest profession, so we can’t just make it go away. There will always be someone who will do it.

R2-Then I argued from an evolutionary perspective that marriage is also one of the oldest vocations. I said marriage is based on procreation and the unification of the husband and wife. The evolutionary reasons for monogamy are to protect the children and wife from exploitation. Pornography and prostitution give the illusion of consequence free sex with pleasure alone as its goal. This erodes the twin foundations of marriage: procreation and unification of spouses.

2-My friend responded that Amsterdam and Nevada have legalized prostitution, and it has done great things for their economy, and kept the city districts clean.

Can anyone provide me with statistical evidence against Amsterdam and Nevada? Any additions or comments on my responses oe his arguments would be helpful. I will probably continue this via email.

God bless,
Ut

 

[LilyM]

I just had a disturbing argument with some friends over the benefits of legalized prostitution (prost).

My friends made the following arguments:
1-Legalizing prost will regulate it as a trade, the women will be better protected, drug use will not be allowed, stds protection will be enforced.

I wasn’t really prepared, so on the fly I agued this:
R1-Do you think any parent wants their children to grow up to be a prostitute? Why? Would you like your own daughter or sons to become prostitutes? Why not?

This line of argumentation didn’t go very far. While he admited that he wouldn’t like his own children to aspire to such a career because there were so many better things they could be, he still maintained his position. He said prostitution is the oldest profession, so we can’t just make it go away. There will always be someone who will do it.

R2-Then I argued from an evolutionary perspective that marriage is also one of the oldest vocations. I said marriage is based on procreation and the unification of the husband and wife. The evolutionary reasons for monogamy are to protect the children and wife from exploitation. Pornography and prostitution give the illusion of consequence free sex with pleasure alone as its goal. This erodes the twin foundations of marriage: procreation and unification of spouses.

2-My friend responded that Amsterdam and Nevada have legalized prostitution, and it has done great things for their economy, and kept the city districts clean.

Can anyone provide me with statistical evidence against Amsterdam and Nevada? Any additions or comments on my responses oe his arguments would be helpful. I will probably continue this via email.

God bless,
Ut

I live in the big bad city of Sydney - and in fact have several brothels in my area.

I can vouch for it they do NOT keep the streets clean. Police are not infrequently called into these places, in fact a dead body was found dumped in a dumpster outside one of them a few years ago. One of them was burned down last year (one suspects not by accident).

And the buildings are sold and resold so often, and change ‘management’ (and name) so often, that it is doubtful that they are really solid economically - for their owners or anyone else - either.

Now there are all sorts of illegal activities that one could make the same sorts of arguments about.

Fact remains, for a Christian, The morality of both your ends AND the means you use to achieve those ends matters. And a perceived good end does not ever justify immoral means.

 

[Numinous]

Making something convenient/profitable/safe does not make it cease to be immoral. Legality need have nothing to do with morality.

 

[Schluns]

Prostitution is not legal in every county in Nevada, and the counties it is legal in, only allow prostitution in brothels, street prostitution remains illegal.

Now the interesting part is this: What town comes to mind when you think of prostitution in Nevada? Righto, Las Vegas; well Prostitution is illegal there. It is also illegal in Carson City and Reno. They are allowed to advertise there wares, but you have to go out of the respective counties for product. Yes, its regulated, but does not appear to be enforced. So the women (and men) are still demeaned and demoralized by society and there customers. Plus it has not stopped drug use by the prostitutes.

 

[Shannon9791]

I just had a disturbing argument with some friends over the benefits of legalized prostitution (prost).

My friends made the following arguments:
1-Legalizing prost will regulate it as a trade, the women will be better protected, drug use will not be allowed, stds protection will be enforced.

I wasn’t really prepared, so on the fly I agued this:
R1-Do you think any parent wants their children to grow up to be a prostitute? Why? Would you like your own daughter or sons to become prostitutes? Why not?

This line of argumentation didn’t go very far. While he admited that he wouldn’t like his own children to aspire to such a career because there were so many better things they could be, he still maintained his position. He said prostitution is the oldest profession, so we can’t just make it go away. There will always be someone who will do it.

R2-Then I argued from an evolutionary perspective that marriage is also one of the oldest vocations. I said marriage is based on procreation and the unification of the husband and wife. The evolutionary reasons for monogamy are to protect the children and wife from exploitation. Pornography and prostitution give the illusion of consequence free sex with pleasure alone as its goal. This erodes the twin foundations of marriage: procreation and unification of spouses.

2-My friend responded that Amsterdam and Nevada have legalized prostitution, and it has done great things for their economy, and kept the city districts clean.

Can anyone provide me with statistical evidence against Amsterdam and Nevada? Any additions or comments on my responses oe his arguments would be helpful. I will probably continue this via email.

God bless,
Ut

Even if something is “regulated” by the government doesn’t mean there won’t be ways of circumventing the system to go about doing it. This is the same argument withe legalizing certain drugs. Also, consider alcohol. There are laws in every state that proclaim the drinking age as 21, but if you go into any bar in any college town across America, you will find underaged drinking. Having worked with a number of prostitutes in my former job I can tell you first hand how much it damages an individual. I don’t care what anyone says, or how much money they make, when you look into their eyes there’s an emptiness that can’t be explained. Is that something you would want to legalize?

 

[mpernot]

My friends made the following arguments:
1-Legalizing prost will regulate it as a trade, the women will be better protected, drug use will not be allowed, stds protection will be enforced.

I wasn’t really prepared, so on the fly I agued this:
R1-Do you think any parent wants their children to grow up to be a prostitute? Why? Would you like your own daughter or sons to become prostitutes? Why not?

This line of argumentation didn’t go very far. While he admited that he wouldn’t like his own children to aspire to such a career because there were so many better things they could be, he still maintained his position. He said prostitution is the oldest profession, so we can’t just make it go away. There will always be someone who will do it.

R2-Then I argued from an evolutionary perspective that marriage is also one of the oldest vocations. I said marriage is based on procreation and the unification of the husband and wife. The evolutionary reasons for monogamy are to protect the children and wife from exploitation. Pornography and prostitution give the illusion of consequence free sex with pleasure alone as its goal. This erodes the twin foundations of marriage: procreation and unification of spouses.

2-My friend responded that Amsterdam and Nevada have legalized prostitution, and it has done great things for their economy, and kept the city districts clean.

This type of argument is my personal favorite because it removes common sense from the equation. The root of your friend’s argument is that this practice should be legal because people are going to do it anyway and they can’t all be stopped. The corrolary (and feel-good justification part of it) is that legalizing it will help keep safer the people who were going to do it illegally anyway. The same argument is used by defenders of abortion.

If this is really a valid rationale, we should also legalize other illegal practices that people are going to do anyway that have the potential to be unsafe. A great example is burglary. It would be so much safer if it were legal for someone to break into your house because then you wouldn’t be tempted to defend yourself and possibly be shot in the process, right? If burglary were legal, then Shawn Taylor would still be playing football, right? I mean, people are going to do it anyway, we might as well make it safer. Then, people can burglarize as they plesae and no one will have to call the police because no one will get shot defending their homes. It would really be much safer and cleaner for everyone… Somehow, I doubt your friend would agree, though they would have to in order to be logically consistent.

The same can said for drug dealing, as many people are killed in drug-related gunfights (including law enforcement). Note that I am not comparing prostitution and burglary or drug dealing wholesale, I am comparing them only on the basis of your friend’s rationale for legally existing. It doesn’t make sense to legalize prostitution for that reason and keep other practices illegal when that same reason can be applied to them.

So the reason is a bad one, but that’s not the fully correct answer either. Like many have said, legalizing prostitution is not acceptable because it is an immoral practice. It has nothing to do with how many people will circumvent the system, nor does it have to do with how much cleaner and safer it would make a city. I doubt the latter is true anyway, but I have no facts available to prove it.

 

[Numinous]

mpernot just owned this thread.

 

[mlchance]

2-My friend responded that Amsterdam and Nevada have legalized prostitution, and it has done great things for their economy, and kept the city districts clean.

He obviously doesn’t travel to the places he talks about. I’m not sure about Nevada, but Amsterdam’s street trash of dropped hypodermic needles, discarded drug wrappers, and used condoms hardly merits the adjective “clean”.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[CGDouglas]

If this is really a valid rationale, we should also legalize other illegal practices that people are going to do anyway that have the potential to be unsafe. A great example is burglary.

I wonder how he would feel to human trafficking.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[puzzleannie]

don’t know if I trust the gubmint to regulate anything. that they should actually enter into this as a business arrangement smacks of extreme disdain for their own citizens. Regulated or not, the sex industry has such strong links with organized crime, that regulation will simply add more and different opportunities for corruption. Amsterdam is definitely not safer, it is one of the least desireable European cities for tourism (unless you are going their for those “recreations”) and in which to live and conduct legitimate business.

 

[utunumsint]

Thank you all for your responses.

I think Lily, Schluns, Shannon, mlchance, and puzzleannie’s responses can be categorized by the denial of the point that regulating the sex trade would make it more safe.

I made the same point to my friend, by he brushed it off as annecdotal. He said he wanted proof. Does anyone have numbers, crime statistics, journalistic articles, etc… that I can send him?

Lily and mpernot blast through his argument on justifying the legalization of the sex trade because it makes it safer. I actually made the same argument to him saying “Why don’t we legalize killing, or theft, etc…” and he said it wasn’t the same thing. I asked him why, and he said it was because it did not hurt anyone. People would do it out of their own free will. My counterargument is that no one wants to be a prostitute. He replied that no one wants to be a plumber…sigh…

I think many other people said that prostitution was intrinsically immoral. I agree. But this is diffult to prove to someone who thinkgs this is just a personal choice.

Any other thoughts would be helpful. And thank you for all who posted so far.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Shannon9791]

I think if you want cold hard facts about it that might be tough to give. Even though prostitution is legal in some places, people still get areested for it, so what would an across the board legalization of it change?

 

[utunumsint]

I think if you want cold hard facts about it that might be tough to give. Even though prostitution is legal in some places, people still get areested for it, so what would an across the board legalization of it change?

Agreed. Then there is also the issue of people trying to justify their own vices.

Sometimes I think we need an updated version of Augustine’s City of God. We could call it, the City of God 2000!

But seriously, the first ten books are a scathing condemnation of the pagan religion, based on its complete lack of moral education, and its seemingly demonic depiction of every kind of perversion and vice you can possibly imagine.

Do you think Pope Benedict is up for the task?

God bless,
Ut

 

[confused35]

Hello! I am from the wonderful city of Las Vegas. I can tell you for a fact that prostitution is only legal in the counties outside of Las Vegas (Clark County) and I don’t beleive it is legal in Reno either. However, it is highly regulated. I understand people’s stance on “its the oldest profession” and all the other arguments they give, but the main point is lost. With prostitution you have a whole host of other problems it entails; drug abuse, violence towards prostitutes from their pimps and johns, and thats just to name a few. Most prostitutes get into the profession as teenagers, they are sexually traumatized woman (victims of rape and incest themselves), who pimps prey upon to make a profit. It is a lifestyle that once you enter is very hard to get out of, many prostitutes have been murdered by their pimps for wanting to get out of the business. The reason I write to you is because Las Vegas (even though it is illegal here) has a serious problem with human trafficking and child prostitution. We have children as young as twelve being sold on the streets here. The pimps and the johns are rarely prosecuted and if they are they basically get a “slap on the wrist.” I think people who argue for the legalization of prostitution don’t realize the BIG picture, it is a violation of human rights for many. If you have any more questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them! Have a good day!

 

[Arclight]

He obviously doesn’t travel to the places he talks about. I’m not sure about Nevada, but Amsterdam’s street trash of dropped hypodermic needles, discarded drug wrappers, and used condoms hardly merits the adjective “clean”.

– Mark L. Chance.

In Las Vegas/Clark County, street prostitution is controlled on the Strip and the Downtown entertainment areas, meaning police activity marginalizes it to the streets just beyond (prostitutes arrested in the Downtown area are “exiled” as part of their probation). confused35’s assessment is correct.

There is an active ministry run by a former prostitute – Hookers For Jesus that takes a proactive approach (as in, approaching prostitutes on the street, in bars) to getting help to prostitutes in need. Interesting statistics from the page:

AGE FACTORS
Average age of entry: 14-16 yrs
Average mean age: 31
Average years in prostitution: 11
Percent younger than age 18 at entry: 42 percent

DRUGS AND ALCOHOL USAGE
Drugs: 75 percent
Alcohol: 26 percent

HOW DO PROSTITUTES RESPOND WHEN ASKED WHAT THEY NEED?
Would you leave prostitution: 87 percent

 

[utunumsint]

Thank you Archlight. That link is exactly what I was looking for.

I sent it to my friends. Hopefully it will get through to them.

Thank you all who have contributed to this thread. Any other links, or statistical, or first hand experience, or any other comments would be greatly appreciated.

God bless,
Ut

P.S. Prayers for my sadly mistaken friends would also be appreciated.

 

[utunumsint]

Here is his reply:

UNESCO breaks it down this way: free vs forced prostitution. Forced prostitution/slavery is very traumatic as the website you sent states. Friend 2 and I were addressing free prostitution, which if legalized, would see women working in regulated and licenced brothels and free to choose their own clients. They would pay taxes to the city, have a health plan, submit to drug and STD tests on a regular basis to maintain their licence, and be unionized. Basically retail prostitution. Regulations agreed on by the population control the industry. The idea is that the municipality and its citizens retain some degree of control over these activities.

If you’re going to talk about slavery, well that’s a whole other topic Ut. Obviously slavery is bad and neither Friend 2 or I were advocating forced prostitution; we were asserting that legalized prositution, if effectively managed, might reduce forced prositution. It would mitigate against the effects of forced prostitution. Legalized access to prostitutes would reduce demand for forced prostitution and thus the influence of organized crime.

That website you sent states that Columbia has a high rate of PTSD despite having legalized prostitution, but what are the conditions for prostitutes in Columbia? Somehow I doubt Columbia is a role model for a legalized prostitution system. Who knows, but apples to apples if you want to be able to make an informed decision, and that website doesn’t cite any sources for those figures.

If it were managed by a legitimate organization, regulated and inspected by government, it could take away control from illegitimate criminal organizations that are responsible for human trafficking and forced prostitution. One of the underlying aspects of this whole debate is control, especially with respect to organized crime and the role it plays. Procuring women through deception and then forcing them to work as slaves. Perhaps one of the major goals of legalized prostitution would be to remove or reduce control from organized crime.

Ut, UNESCO makes reference to the naysayers in their ivory towers. I invite you to propose a realistic alternative solution to human trafficking, slavery and forced prostitution. No omniscient and omnipotent morality police forces permitted, because they don’t exist.

Even if you somehow managed to become abolitionist king-of-the-world and legislated an end to prostitution, would it end? Even the best dictators and the most effective police states are unable to control their populations to that degree, and their regimes tend not to last very long. Abolitionists tried to get rid of booze too and completely failed. The abolitionists were mainly abused women, and they started the suffrage movement and got the vote for women. We now have a move balanced view of appropriate alcohol consumption. But its legal.

Even if you introduced legalized prostitution, there will still be plenty of illegal prostitution, i.e. unlicenced prostitutes. But at least they are doing something illegal and can be arrested and charged for it. There would be incentive for workers on the fringe to move to the establishment, have a health plan, work in a relatively safe environment, and be able to choose your clients. Right now, all prostitution is effectively illegal (bartering), so there is no incentive for any of these sex workers to abide by any rules. Rules would at least establish some order and reduce a revenue stream to organized crime.

Since were are in the midst of globalization, where a human trafficker can buy or abduct people in Nepal, transport them to NY, and force them to work as sex slaves, perhaps we need to evaluate and experiment with the lesser of two evils. Or failing that we could stick our moral heads in the sand.

Friend 1

P.S. Seattle wouldn’t be the biggest and most prosperous city in the North West if it weren’t for legalized prostitution in the 19th century! Those pioneers were very pragmatic.

 

[Arclight]

Here is his reply:

Whether its “free” or “forced” is something UNESCO should ask a prostitute’s opinion on. The former prostitute I cite thinks its not very free at all. My best guess is that neither UNESCO nor your friends have any firsthand experience with prostitutes on any level but, perhaps, the most obvious.

 

[Shannon9791]

Here is his reply:

The government regulates the usage of alcohol but yet how often to deaths occur because of it? Just because something is regulated doesn’t mean it will be OK. AND your friend is convieniently forgetting about the women and men who prostitute themselves to get illegal drugs. I’d be willing to bet that most of the people who are prositiutes are addicted to drugs, and if given the chance to get off drugs would stop prostituting. Also, the regulation of prostitution by the government would push those who are doing it to support addictions deeper into the alleys, which would make it harder for them to get out.

 

[utunumsint]

I found this site in my research. It looks promissing.

prostitutionresearch.com/c-laws-about-prostitution.html

I’ll send it to him on Monday.

I find it irritating that I even have to argue this.
God bless,
Ut