Legionary Mind-Control?

[Allen537]

I was doing some reading about the Legionaries of Christ and I came across a most interesting article comparing Legionary formation to “cult” type behaviors. It was written by an ex-legionary. I am curious to see what all of you think.

icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/lennon_paul_legion_en0502.htm

I think some of what is said is a bit of a stretch, but the author does come to some interesting conclusions.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Drilling4Truth]

This is not unlike the issues some have with Opus Dei.

Let’s look at a possible scenario. Let’s say a young man tells his parents that he is joining a religious movement. Let’s call it Bob’s Karma. Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by Bob’s Karma instructors.

Would you be concerned?

Now, what if instead of saying he wants to join Bob’s Karma, your son wants to join the United States Marine Corps. Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by United States Marine Corps instructors.

Would you be AS concerned?

Here’s another scenario. What if your son wants to join the diocesan priesthood? Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by the local bishop.

Would you be concerned AT ALL?

I suppose, in the end it comes down to trust by those individuals wanting to join and their families. That’s why education is extremely important. There are volumes of information available from dioceses, the Marine Corps and the LC’s for perspective applicants and their families. I would tend to be weary of groups that have limited information available or rely on personal experiences from members alone for recruitment.

I also tend to be weary of the testimony of former members. Often there is a sense of guilt for leaving an organization and many people resort to attacking, fairly or unfairly, the organization they just left in an effort to legitimize their decision. You’ll find it with former lay Catholics quite often.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

This is not unlike the issues some have with Opus Dei.

Let’s look at a possible scenario. Let’s say a young man tells his parents that he is joining a religious movement. Let’s call it Bob’s Karma. Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by Bob’s Karma instructors.

Would you be concerned?

Now, what if instead of saying he wants to join Bob’s Karma, your son wants to join the United States Marine Corps. Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by United States Marine Corps instructors.

Would you be AS concerned?

Here’s another scenario. What if your son wants to join the diocesan priesthood? Now, to be a member this young man would have to leave his home, have limited contact with his friends and family and be barred from contacting them at all for extended periods. He would also undergo specific education and training based on the rules established by the local bishop.

Would you be concerned AT ALL?

I suppose, in the end it comes down to trust by those individuals wanting to join and their families. That’s why education is extremely important. There are volumes of information available from dioceses, the Marine Corps and the LC’s for perspective applicants and their families. I would tend to be weary of groups that have limited information available or rely on personal experiences from members alone for recruitment.

I also tend to be weary of the testimony of former members. Often there is a sense of guilt for leaving an organization and many people resort to attacking, fairly or unfairly, the organization they just left in an effort to legitimize their decision. You’ll find it with former lay Catholics quite often.

I have to agree with you about the former members’ testimonies. There is one such “testimony” floating around the internet about a Carmelite community of nuns who live under ground in the middle of nowhere who practice flagellation and kneeling for prayer on boards with nails. It is the MOST insane “testimony” I have ever read. It’s obviously false and written by someone who must despise religious life and desires to make up lies to trick people into thinking that if you become a nun, you will suffer abuse.

There is also a link on YouTube to a video about a former Sister Adorer of the Precious Blood who talks about how she and the other sisters were expected to become mini-saviors, like Christ, in a sense. She also claims that they beat themselves with whips. Flagellation is a practice long abandoned. The Church frowns on it. As far as I know, the Adorers are approved by the Church and therefore, must adhere to their rules. This former sister isn’t even a Catholic anymore. And her interview was with a former priest who converted to Protestantism.

There is no way I would believe these so-called “testimonies” without some hard evidence. In my eyes, they are false. Innocent until proven guilty, I say. I suggest everyone read these stories with a modicum of doubt. Don’t resign yourself to believe what one person says about them, or even a whole group. If you find out for yourself that they are what the group says, then you may question, but not before.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I also tend to be weary of the testimony of former members. Often there is a sense of guilt for leaving an organization and many people resort to attacking, fairly or unfairly, the organization they just left in an effort to legitimize their decision. You’ll find it with former lay Catholics quite often.

Great post but I wanted to go a bit further on this part about former members.

We do not know the full reason that a person is a former member from religious life/diocesen formation. We know what this former member will tell us but we will only know that as the religious community/diocese will not give out any information on why someone has left, or has been asked to leave, or has been encouraged to leave.

I always take someone’s accusations with a grain of salt knowing that what they say is not the full truth and I give the benefit of doubt to the religious community/diocese that is in good standing with the Church.

 

[saieditor]

To my mind it simply looks like the ordinary rules for a religious or clerical institute/society as applied for a lay institute, albeit over-specified. And yes, the comments on the charism in Lennon’s article are correct, there is great emphasis on the charism and forming oneself in the example of the founder.

But isn’t that why people are attracted to such orders and societies and institutes … ie, the charism of the founder attracts them.

The danger lies in forcing a “mould” onto the human person; no one can be an exact copy of another, but they can be inspired and live out the principles as evidenced in the words, deeds and accomplishments of such a founder with their unique gift from the Holy Spirit.

One should not lose sight of the basics.

 

[ack]

I didn’t read the article (most articles like that are pretty over-the-top), but I want to point out that some of the practices encountered in Legionary seminaries (such as restricting and monitoring the seminarians’ communications with their families and the outside world) are not “ordinary” by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t know of any other orders that are as restrictive with their seminarians as the Legionaries are.

Latin American Catholic priests sometimes tell stories about seminarians who wanted to leave the order but couldn’t because they were barred from communicating with the outside world, although such stories cannot be verified.

The Legionaries have been banned in several US dioceses ( catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0407003.htm )

In the past, there have been cases where solid and orthodox religious orders were criticized and locally suppressed because
the local bishop felt threatened by a new, fast-growing organization. It is difficult to tell if criticism of the Legionaries is due to this, or if it is genuine. (But keep in mind that none of the other orders that I have in mind treat their seminarians like the Legion does…)

To my mind it simply looks like the ordinary rules for a religious or clerical institute/society as applied for a lay institute, albeit over-specified. And yes, the comments on the charism in Lennon’s article are correct, there is great emphasis on the charism and forming oneself in the example of the founder.

But isn’t that why people are attracted to such orders and societies and institutes … ie, the charism of the founder attracts them.

The danger lies in forcing a “mould” onto the human person; no one can be an exact copy of another, but they can be inspired and live out the principles as evidenced in the words, deeds and accomplishments of such a founder with their unique gift from the Holy Spirit.

One should not lose sight of the basics.

 

[Allen537]

I didn’t read the article (most articles like that are pretty over-the-top), but I want to point out that some of the practices encountered in Legionary seminaries (such as restricting and monitoring the seminarians’ communications with their families and the outside world) are not “ordinary” by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t know of any other orders that are as restrictive with their seminarians as the Legionaries are.

Latin American Catholic priests sometimes tell stories about seminarians who wanted to leave the order but couldn’t because they were barred from communicating with the outside world, although such stories cannot be verified.

The Legionaries have been banned in several US dioceses ( catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0407003.htm )

In the past, there have been cases where solid and orthodox religious orders were criticized and locally suppressed because
the local bishop felt threatened by a new, fast-growing organization. It is difficult to tell if criticism of the Legionaries is due to this, or if it is genuine. (But keep in mind that none of the other orders that I have in mind treat their seminarians like the Legion does…)

I have to agree with you. When I was in the seminary, I knew a few men who had at one time been legionaries here in the US. One had been a candidate for about a year, and the other left near the end of Novitiate. While both of the guys never spoke hatefully about the legion, they did make serious, and honest critiques of their formation and post-formation life. As one of them who is now a priest said to me a few years ago “Something was just not right”. He is a very charitable man, and I am sure he was trying to be nice in his explaination.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I didn’t read the article (most articles like that are pretty over-the-top), but I want to point out that some of the practices encountered in Legionary seminaries (such as restricting and monitoring the seminarians’ communications with their families and the outside world) are not “ordinary” by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t know of any other orders that are as restrictive with their seminarians as the Legionaries are.

This sort of thing was normal for all religious groups. I know of at least one other that does this, at least they did at the time I was looking into them and many people around here think of them as a very holy and orthodox group.

Latin American Catholic priests sometimes tell stories about seminarians who wanted to leave the order but couldn’t because they were barred from communicating with the outside world, although such stories cannot be verified.

If the stories can not be verified then why repeat them?

The Legionaries have been banned in several US dioceses ( catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0407003.htm )

Hmmm, the article lists two diocese, that is not “several”. But they do have issues with the bishops it seems but it has nothing to do with formation, it seems to have to do with communication and no informing the bishops of what they are doing.

In the past, there have been cases where solid and orthodox religious orders were criticized and locally suppressed because
the local bishop felt threatened by a new, fast-growing organization. It is difficult to tell if criticism of the Legionaries is due to this, or if it is genuine. (But keep in mind that none of the other orders that I have in mind treat their seminarians like the Legion does…)

This is very true. Bishops do not seem to understand religious orders. But as for the treatment, as I pointed out I know of one that does treat their men in formation the same way or very close to it. The issue is that there may be many, we just have not heard of it because no one seems to have an axe to grind against them, yet.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

Another point about these new active religious communities like Opus Dei and the LC’s, both of which were loved by John Paul II, is that they often compete for the vocations inside a diocese. I once read somewhere that bishops grumble when a young man drops out of diocesan seminary. But, they moan aloud when they lose a young man to a religious order.

 

[ack]

Hmmm, the article lists two diocese, that is not “several”. But they do have issues with the bishops it seems but it has nothing to do with formation, it seems to have to do with communication and no informing the bishops of what they are doing.

They are also banned by the Diocese of Columbus, the LA archdiocese, and the diocese of Richmond, along with the Diocese of Minneapolis-St. Paul, and the Diocese of Baton Rouge.

ncrcafe.org/node/1594

In the past, bishops have attempted to suppress religious orders when they are drawing vocations away from the the bishops’ own seminaries. However, the dioceses that have banned the Legion in the US don’t have such seminaries as far as I know.

This is very true. Bishops do not seem to understand religious orders. But as for the treatment, as I pointed out I know of one that does treat their men in formation the same way or very close to it. The issue is that there may be many, we just have not heard of it because no one seems to have an axe to grind against them, yet.

For my own reference, I would be interested in knowing which religious order has Legion-like rules for their seminarians…

PS: I am a little confused by the NCR article when it states that the Legion has the only seminaries for teenage boys in the US. Are they really beginning seminary education before the teens have had time to finish a high school education? I know of another order that takes high schoolers, but they either send them to the minor (high school) seminary before they enter the order, or they must complete high school as a novice.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

They are also banned by the Diocese of Columbus, the LA archdiocese, and the diocese of Richmond, along with the Diocese of Minneapolis-St. Paul, and the Diocese of Baton Rouge.

ncrcafe.org/node/1594

In the past, bishops have attempted to suppress religious orders when they are drawing vocations away from the the bishops’ own seminaries. However, the dioceses that have banned the Legion in the US don’t have such seminaries as far as I know.

I was not aware of the other ones listed as the article only listed two.

Not all dioceses have seminaries, some use seminaries out side of their diocese but all dioceses have seminarians.

When I decided on the Carmelites the Vocation director for the Latin Catholic Diocese I lived in got pretty miffed when he heard.

For my own reference, I would be interested in knowing which religious order has Legion-like rules for their seminarians…

That’s nice but I will not be telling tails. Suffice it to say that I have run into at least one.

PS: I am a little confused by the NCR article when it states that the Legion has the only seminaries for teenage boys in the US. Are they really beginning seminary education before the teens have had time to finish a high school education? I know of another order that takes high schoolers, but they either send them to the minor (high school) seminary before they enter the order, or they must complete high school as a novice.

It is not a real seminary as we know it. It is called a minor (or high school) seminary. It is like a boys only Catholic High School that also has formation for possible religious life. They were very popular in the pre-vatican II days, they started to die out some time after Vatican II.

The Carmelites used to have one in Niagara Falls and one in Middletown, NY.

Any ways, there is a bit of “mind-control” to all religious orders. We must be formed in the charism and traditions of our orders.

 

[1234]

AND the diocese of Baltimore.

ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/1237

…includes a lengthy interview with Edwin O’Brian, Archbishop of Baltimore.

There is too much smoke here, folks, not to be some fire somewhere.

Father Marcial died under a cloud. He was not actually kicked out of the priesthood, but told to limit his activities in recent years; i suspect that his condemnation was mitigated because of his ill-health. It was Ratzinger who investigated the order as head of Propagation of the Faith, and delivered the order as Pope.

I have heard that the seminaries always have to be together in two’s–assigned, and that one is supposed to inform on the other. They ‘watch’ each other. No privacy. Also, the emphasis on the young, and on ‘minor’ seminaries is suspect, along with the secrecy. There are virtually no ‘minor’ seminaries in the US, for good reason. They went out with Vat II, along with accepting girls as postulants while in high school.

This type of formation is very different from the military and from most seminaries, diocesan or religious. There is nothing ‘secret’ about these types of formations.

I would be very concerned if my son were to enter the Legionaries, or, for that matter, Opus Dei, or any kind of secret society.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

Neither Opus Dei nor the LC’s are secret societies. They are Catholic institutions in good standing with the Holy See and countless dioceses in the US and abroad that don’t warrant news headlines. You’ll have bishops who do not like the LC’s or Opus Dei for whatever reason, and that’s their right. You’ll also have bishops who don’t like the Society of Jesus or the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.

And don’t resort to second hand information. I myself have heard that the Knights of Columbus are actually Freemasons, Pius XII was a Nazi and the Jesuits killed JFK.

As far as minor seminaries, you’re right, we don’t have near as many as there used to be. There also aren’t near as many priests as there used to be, to say nothing of religious brothers or nuns.

Yes, Fr. Marcial Maciel had accusations of misconduct made against him. However, no formal charges were ever made and he was never convicted of any crime. He was a man who obeyed his superiors without hesitation and carried the stigma to his death.

 

[barb_finnegan]

Neither Opus Dei nor the LC’s are secret societies. They are Catholic institutions in good standing with the Holy See and countless dioceses in the US and abroad that don’t warrant news headlines. You’ll have bishops who do not like the LC’s or Opus Dei for whatever reason, and that’s their right. You’ll also have bishops who don’t like the Society of Jesus or the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal.

And don’t resort to second hand information. I myself have heard that the Knights of Columbus are actually Freemasons, Pius XII was a Nazi and the Jesuits killed JFK.

As far as minor seminaries, you’re right, we don’t have near as many as there used to be. There also aren’t near as many priests as there used to be, to say nothing of religious brothers or nuns.

Yes, Fr. Marcial Maciel had accusations of misconduct made against him. However, no formal charges were ever made and he was never convicted of any crime. He was a man who obeyed his superiors without hesitation and carried the stigma to his death.

I have been a financial supporter of the LC for many years, and a couple times went to their Profession Mass in Connecticut. I also had a Legionary priest and seminary Brother come to visit me in my home. And I have found them to be gentlemen-not under any kind of ‘mind control’!

I have heard the same thing about Fr. Maciel, Drilling…no charges were made against him, and in obedience he stepped down from leadership and spent his last years in seclusion.

I wish we had some good orthodox Orders here in my Upstate NY diocese-I guess I’ll have to wait till we get a new Bishop!

 

[chicago]

Also, the emphasis on the young, and on ‘minor’ seminaries is suspect, along with the secrecy. There are virtually no ‘minor’ seminaries in the US, for good reason. They went out with Vat II, along with accepting girls as postulants while in high school.

And what, pray tell, happens to be the “good reason?”

 

[KCT]

Another point about these new active religious communities like Opus Dei and the LC’s, both of which were loved by John Paul II, is that they often compete for the vocations inside a diocese. I once read somewhere that bishops grumble when a young man drops out of diocesan seminary. But, they moan aloud when they lose a young man to a religious order.

I would disagree with using the word “compete”. As I understand it, a vocation is not some generic thing and the first one to find the guy “gets” him. A vocation must be discerned, and part of that is discerning what kind of calling - religious or diocesan.

A bishop might not be happy that a young man enters the Jesuits, Legionaries, Dominicans or any other order, but he should rejoice that the young man is (presumably) doing God’s will.

I don’t think we should see it as competition. If Bishops do, I think it’s a shame.

 

[Allen537]

I would disagree with using the word “compete”. As I understand it, a vocation is not some generic thing and the first one to find the guy “gets” him. A vocation must be discerned, and part of that is discerning what kind of calling - religious or diocesan.

A bishop might not be happy that a young man enters the Jesuits, Legionaries, Dominicans or any other order, but he should rejoice that the young man is (presumably) doing God’s will.

I don’t think we should see it as competition. If Bishops do, I think it’s a shame.

Agreed, But when speaking to my former Bishop about my departure to the Carmelites, he was visibly not happy with my decision. I am sure he didn’t see it as a loss in a competition. I think the reason he was not happy, and why most bishop’s are not happy about losing seminarians to religious orders, is because he and many other bishops are badly in need of priests to staff their parishes. It’s one thing for an Order to pull out of a Parish due to lack of manpower, they just get replaced. If a bishop can’t fill the void, he has to consider closing the parish, or adding it to the already busy schedule of a nearby priest.

It think that dealing with the departure of a seminarian is a more difficult for a bishop than it is for a religious superior, IMHO.

In Carmel,

Br. Allen

 

[1234]

And what, pray tell, happens to be the “good reason?”

Wel, the edophile scandal, for one reason. The reluctance of good Catholic families to send their sons away to minor seminary when they were so obviously immature, and relatively defenseless against predators. If minor seminaries were to re-open, very few families would send their sons to them. Vatican II came out pretty strongly against excessive recruiting of minors into both seminaries and convents.

The information I have on Marcial came from Vatican sources online–and them only. I feel that having Ratzinger’s hand in this, both as Cardinal and Pope, means that there was a real cause for the treatment that Marcial received.

No one levels any accusations of this nature against other orders, not the OPs, or OSBs, Franciscans as a group.

 

[KCT]

Agreed, But when speaking to my former Bishop about my departure to the Carmelites, he was visibly not happy with my decision. I am sure he didn’t see it as a loss in a competition. I think the reason he was not happy, and why most bishop’s are not happy about losing seminarians to religious orders, is because he and many other bishops are badly in need of priests to staff their parishes.

I know . . . but would a Bishop really want a seminarian or priest who ignored a call to an order and stayed in the diocese? Wouldn’t that man be in the wrong seminary for the wrong reason?

A friend’s son went to a non diocesan seminary and his Bishop wasn’t thrilled. The Bishop believed the young man “should stay in the diocese that formed him.” Thing is, this young man’s pastor never said one word about being a priest. There was no youth group and his formation came from home.

I think if orders start to get more vocations then the dioceses will take notice and do more to actively recruit. That’s when they’ll get vocations, IMHO. (I know some dioceses are doing more to recruit; I mean in general)

 

[CoolRich59]

Yes, Fr. Marcial Maciel had accusations of misconduct made against him. However, no formal charges were ever made and he was never convicted of any crime. He was a man who obeyed his superiors without hesitation and carried the stigma to his death.

“No formal charges”, “never convicted of any crime”. This was not a civil criminal court proceeding where the charges need to proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

The allegations were sufficiently serious and documented that there was an investigation by the Vatican. My recollection was that, due to Fr. Maciel’s age and health, the decision was made to have him step down and to cease any public ministry. It certainly was not a vindication of his conduct.