Lent: Debate with a protestant

[ephesians2]

ephesians2;11773485:

There were no Christians in Galatia. IIRC, Paul traveled there in the 40’s or 50’s for the first time, and proclaimed the Gospel. So no, they had no knowledge of Christ until many years after His death and resurrection. And also, no, they didn’t send out notices about the execution of a leader of a small group of Jews. The only notice they gave was the sign nailed to the top of the cross.

You seem to be turning yourself into a pretzel to try and dodge the obvious meaning of Christ being publicly portrayed as crucified.

I understand Paul traveled to Galatia and set up churches in places like Antioch, Lystra, Iconium where he preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them- Who Christ was, How and Why He died and How He defeated death by resurrecting on the third day and ultimately ascending to His throne on the right hand of the Father. Paul “publicly portrayed” Christ as crucified (Notices were publicly displayed in the town squares, like an information center as they did not have the internet at that time. Paul’s preaching WAS that “notice” to the Galatians). Now, he is irritated with the churches that they are “so quickly deserting” that Gospel (Gal. 1). That being said, I think it is reading into the passage a bit to say that Paul in the context of what he was speaking in Galatians 1-3 was talking about a crucifix in verse 1 of ch.3. (Just a side note, I am not against using teaching aids for teaching and the apostles may have used them, IDK) (Another side note, I wish I could turn things into pretzels, I like pretzels.)

 

[ephesians2]

I don’t know why the previous post said I was posting my own quote, but I quoted zz912.

 

[ephesians2]

The crucifix is older than the NT.

I also thought I’d mention, I have a little problem with this statement.

 

[bitznbitez]

I also thought I’d mention, I have a little problem with this statement.

The crucifix being said to be older than the New Testament would simply mean that the crucifixion happened before the New Testament was written down. The books of the new testament were written after the events described in them happened. Precisely when and how long after is a discussion for others.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

On the time scale of the Jewish religion, yes.

Hint, we are now in Jewish year 5774.

ICXC NIKA

MEH, ok. I’ll give you t hat. I’m coming from the mindset of arguing with the twits that scream, "they were written 120 years after!!! etc… I was in my own world, my bad.

 

[HeteroDoxical]

I also thought I’d mention, I have a little problem with this statement.

I have a problem. It seems bull to my common mind.

However, I’m probably ignorant of something, so educate me?

 

[ephesians2]

I have a problem. It seems bull to my common mind.

However, I’m probably ignorant of something, so educate me?

Sorry, I am not getting what you’re getting at

 

[zz912]

In regards to your last paragraph- As a Christian, your life should be Christ-centered EVERYDAY OF YOUR LIFE, but no one can live a perfect, sinless life except for the Son, so yes there are days where you will fail. But if you are His, you will hear His voice and you will regain your focus.

Agreed.

It would be silly to “buy it” that all Roman Catholics in the world follow Lent all 40 days as well. But like your opinion stated, “And I just don’t buy it when people claim they do these things every day all year.” my opinion just stated is just that, not fact but opinion.

Not an analagous comparison. You are comparing one person’s behavior versus the behavior/adherence of an entire population. I never claimed that all Catholics follow Lent. I know for a fact that all don’t.

One question for you zz912-

Are you saying that for the 40 days of Lent you are focused on Christ, what He accomplished on the cross, His resurrection and His Great Commission, (fasting and almsgiving included) but then the rest of the 325 days of the year, you are not?

Nope, not saying that at all. Lent is a special time where we take our normal behaviors of following Christ and kick them up a notch. We give extra effort and time. Even those like monks and secluded religious, who have devoted their entires lives to prayer/service/penance, even they have extra devotions and activities during Lent.

Let’s turn this question around some. Are there no days in the year when you do something extra for God? Do you spend exactly the same amount of time, effort, attention, etc on Easter or Christmas as you do the third Sunday in July when nothing special is happening? I’m betting you get dressed up just a little better, spend more time at church, and go to more events, and have more prayer time during Easter and Christmas, right?

And that’s my point. And that is what Lent is about. It gets us out of our routine, and takes our behaviors up a notch, so that we are really concentrating on Christ. It doesn’t mean we aren’t doing so the rest of the year, but we really put effort forth during this time. And God understands this. That’s why He created festivals and feasts. He understands (because He created us) that we don’t have His infinite qualities, and we work best with prescribed times to really focus. So He created feasts and festivals to that we have a pattern that brings us into focus regularly.

 

[zz912]

I also thought I’d mention, I have a little problem with this statement.

What problem exactly?

 

[zz912]

zz912;11777036:

I understand Paul traveled to Galatia and set up churches in places like Antioch, Lystra, Iconium where he preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them- Who Christ was, How and Why He died and How He defeated death by resurrecting on the third day and ultimately ascending to His throne on the right hand of the Father. Paul “publicly portrayed” Christ as crucified (Notices were publicly displayed in the town squares, like an information center as they did not have the internet at that time. Paul’s preaching WAS that “notice” to the Galatians). Now, he is irritated with the churches that they are “so quickly deserting” that Gospel (Gal. 1). That being said, I think it is reading into the passage a bit to say that Paul in the context of what he was speaking in Galatians 1-3 was talking about a crucifix in verse 1 of ch.3. (Just a side note, I am not against using teaching aids for teaching and the apostles may have used them, IDK) (Another side note, I wish I could turn things into pretzels, I like pretzels.)

On the contrary, I think it is reading a bit into the passage to assume that he is referring to his public preaching. Paul describes his public preaching in several letters, and it is different that this reference.

You are right, that Paul is reprimanding the Galatians for falling away from the faith. But automatically assuming that he is not referring to a crucifix in this passage is unnecessarily limiting it. It would be quite plausible to think he was referring to the crucifix, his homilies during mass, his public preaching, and maybe even passion plays.

 

[MacQ]

Seriously folks…the biggest question is whether one ought to be ‘debating’ with protestants in the first place.
It’s one thing to articulate Catholic beliefs and teachings, and to clear up misconceptions.
I think if that bleeds over into trying to one-up others, or convince them their beliefs are wrong, then it’s a really really bad idea.
Just my :twocents:

 

[ephesians2]

Agreed.

Not an analagous comparison. You are comparing one person’s behavior versus the behavior/adherence of an entire population. I never claimed that all Catholics follow Lent. I know for a fact that all don’t.

Nope, not saying that at all. Lent is a special time where we take our normal behaviors of following Christ and kick them up a notch. We give extra effort and time. Even those like monks and secluded religious, who have devoted their entires lives to prayer/service/penance, even they have extra devotions and activities during Lent.

Let’s turn this question around some. Are there no days in the year when you do something extra for God? Do you spend exactly the same amount of time, effort, attention, etc on Easter or Christmas as you do the third Sunday in July when nothing special is happening? I’m betting you get dressed up just a little better, spend more time at church, and go to more events, and have more prayer time during Easter and Christmas, right?

And that’s my point. And that is what Lent is about. It gets us out of our routine, and takes our behaviors up a notch, so that we are really concentrating on Christ. It doesn’t mean we aren’t doing so the rest of the year, but we really put effort forth during this time. And God understands this. That’s why He created festivals and feasts. He understands (because He created us) that we don’t have His infinite qualities, and we work best with prescribed times to really focus. So He created feasts and festivals to that we have a pattern that brings us into focus regularly.

I have to learn how to quote before I can address your questions… I might have some interesting looking posts coming up, but I’ll do my best.

Something to ponder whilst I learn, I do not have a problem with those who choose to observe Lent.

 

[ephesians2]

Seriously folks…the biggest question is whether one ought to be ‘debating’ with protestants in the first place.
It’s one thing to articulate Catholic beliefs and teachings, and to clear up misconceptions.
I think if that bleeds over into trying to one-up others, or convince them their beliefs are wrong, then it’s a really really bad idea.
Just my :twocents:

I’m debating on debating you, but I don’t agree. I think all religions/non-religions should debate. It strengthens the mind and for a lot, their faith. I think it is important to always have answer for the hope that lies within you (especially when someone tells you that you are wrong). I have found that many on this forum simply want to know and understand another’s faith and/or religion. That is the main reason I am here, but I can’t speak for anyone else.

 

[ephesians2]

ephesians2;11780300:

On the contrary, I think it is reading a bit into the passage to assume that he is referring to his public preaching. Paul describes his public preaching in several letters, and it is different that this reference.

You are right, that Paul is reprimanding the Galatians for falling away from the faith. But automatically assuming that he is not referring to a crucifix in this passage is unnecessarily limiting it. It would be quite plausible to think he was referring to the crucifix, his homilies during mass, his public preaching, and maybe even passion plays.

Could be that he and others used teaching aids, Jesus did quite a bit, I suppose this is a silly thing to keep bringing up. I guess my question here is- What are you referring to when you say “Crucifix”?

 

[rfournier103]

I’m debating on debating you, but I don’t agree. I think all religions/non-religions should debate. It strengthens the mind and for a lot, their faith. I think it is important to always have answer for the hope that lies within you (especially when someone tells you that you are wrong). I have found that many on this forum simply want to know and understand another’s faith and/or religion. That is the main reason I am here, but I can’t speak for anyone else.

Good morning. I feel the nee to weigh in here.

I agree that debate is a great tool to increase knowledge and strengthen our faith. While I find it sad that there is any debate at all among we Christians; we are divided, and therefore debate is inevitable. This forum is indeed a great place to debate because almost every non-Catholic forum will deny membership to Catholics or boot them after a short time. Try joining a Baptist forum and tell them you’re Catholic and see how far you get…

This is THE best interactive Catholic site on the net that I am aware of, and I think that most of the regulars here know that.

 

[catholictiger]

Im in a debate with a protestant and she is insisting that Lent is not Biblical.

the word isn’t Jesus fasting for 40 days is so . . . . .

 

[ephesians2]

ZZ912 (So I kind of got the quoting thing down. Kind of.)

Not an analagous comparison. You are comparing one person’s behavior versus the behavior/adherence of an entire population. I never claimed that all Catholics follow Lent. I know for a fact that all don’t.

In the initial post, I never said all Protestants serve Christ perfectly on a daily basis. I said, “Everyday a Protestant/Christian is called to live as Christ lived and to remember what his or her Savior has accomplished”. Whether or not, one does that is between them and God. I thought of this verse which someone maybe has brought up but I cant remember, “One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.” (Romans 10)

Let’s turn this question around some. Are there no days in the year when you do something extra for God? Do you spend exactly the same amount of time, effort, attention, etc on Easter or Christmas as you do the third Sunday in July when nothing special is happening? I’m betting you get dressed up just a little better, spend more time at church, and go to more events, and have more prayer time during Easter and Christmas, right?

I love celebrating the Resurrection. I ponder the Death of my Savior most days. God sends good and bad into my life and I recognize it is used to draw me nearer to Him. Circumstances, whether good or bad, help me to understand what Christ Jesus accomplished for me at Calvary. I live each day with the awareness that if it were not for the grace of God, I would be lost and without hope. I suppose the third Sunday in July Lord willing, I will be where I am on every Sunday (unless sickness occurs), with my church, worshipping the Lord and Giver of life and pondering His accomplished work. I’m not saying this to look righteous, I’m just answering your question. I am not a “two day Christian”. I can’t speak for anyone else though.

And that’s my point. And that is what Lent is about. It gets us out of our routine, and takes our behaviors up a notch, so that we are really concentrating on Christ.

And this is wonderful. Glory be to God! I said before, I do not have an issue with those who choose to observe Lent.

 

[ephesians2]

This forum is indeed a great place to debate because almost every non-Catholic forum will deny membership to Catholics or boot them after a short time. Try joining a Baptist forum and tell them you’re Catholic and see how far you get…

That is sad. What specific forums do that?

 

[zz912]

Could be that he and others used teaching aids, Jesus did quite a bit, I suppose this is a silly thing to keep bringing up. I guess my question here is- What are you referring to when you say “Crucifix”?

A representation of some sort of Jesus dead on the cross.

 

[rfournier103]

That is sad. What specific forums do that?

I don’t want to violate THIS forums rules by getting into specifics about other forums. I will say that the only reason I would want to join any other Christian community’s forum would be to refute the misunderstandings, misconceptions, and blatant LIES they spread about Catholicism.

If you look closely enough, the specific forums are very easy to find.