Lepanto and PRI catch CRS running contraceptive program

[MHichborn]

I am skeptical of “on the ground” interviews when those doing the interviewing have an agenda.

The on-the-ground investigator went to see if certain programs were being conducted in Kenya. The first program we asked the investigator to look into was Healthy Choices I. If the investigator was as biased and unscrupulous as you suggest, he would not have reported that Healthy Choices I had been cleaned up with all references to condoms removed from the program.

 

[pnewton]

The on-the-ground investigator went to see if certain programs were being conducted in Kenya. The first program we asked the investigator to look into was Healthy Choices I. If the investigator was as biased and unscrupulous as you suggest, he would not have reported that Healthy Choices I had been cleaned up with all references to condoms removed from the program.

I did not say I suspected the man of being unscrupulous. Whether he hid his identify or not, is not something I have any knowledge of. Even if one tries to be honest, if one is paid to research and find something, he usually will. We cannot help that our perspective will be colored by what we want. Truth takes a back seat to our perspective and expectations.

 

[Tigg]

CRS gets most of its money from USAID which is the world’s largest promoter of abortion, contraception and sterilization. In current news it is worth noting that the U.S., through this same agency, is helping fund the sterilization in India (see related thread in World News.)

For the lurkers reading this thread who sincerely question this issue and are not comfortable with supporting CRS due to its troubling past and continued notoriety, see accompanying links supplying more info in this article:

……many [grantees] don’t simply disagree with the Church on her moral and social doctrine, but spend billions forwarding their worldview ……… of suppressing fertility in the developing world, and who argue that this longstanding and well known injustice is actually a moral imperative of the development and aid industry.

crisismagazine.com/2015/two-masks-catholic-relief-services

Conscience, a natural faculty of our reason, makes* judgments *about the particular good or evil in certain situations and we have an obligation to educate ourselves accordingly.

I, for one, am grateful to Lepanto, HLI and PRI for their tireless watch and efforts to curtail such an obvious iniquity.

 

[pnewton]

I was going to suggest those lurking check with their priests or bishop. If you read something on the internet, be aware of the source and whether they are first, in union with the Church as an approved lay ministry, and second, have a consistent record of opposing the Church, whether they say they are faithful or not. There are traditionalists that believe in adhering not only to Church doctrine but Church authority, then there are those that continual defy Church authority in favor of their own interpretations of what tradition is and is not.

The best resource is to check and see what city a ministry is, then look up that diocese and see if they are registered as a lay ministry. That is the Catholic way.

 

[KSU]

There are traditionalists that believe in adhering not only to Church doctrine but Church authority

The term “traditionalist” means exactly the opposite of that, e. g., a Sedevacantist.

 

[zab]

One criticism of CRS that has come up is that CRS does not evangelize by preaching the Gospel. The mission of CRS is to “to assist people on the basis of need, not creed, race or nationality.” Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for. She did not try to convert the Hindu or people of other religions to the Catholic Faith. She evangelized by her example. But she was happy to answer any questions about her Catholic Faith if anyone asked. But I suppose you can say that she had another mission in speaking to the world about her mission to the poor. There are many quotes from Mother Teresa that are very insightful and help people to grow spiritually.

 

[KSU]

One criticism of CRS that has come up is that CRS does not evangelize by preaching the Gospel… Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for…

zab, the criticism of CRS to which you refer* is based on CRS, a very high-profile CATHOLIC ORGANIZATION saying it is proud of never evangelizing:
"We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith. ** We’re proud of that.**

Your assertion that, “Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for”, is not true.
Here are excerpts from beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2007/09/Songs-In-The-Darkness-Mother-Teresas-Inner-Strength.aspx#

QUOTE
Sean Callahan of Catholic Relief Services was CRS’ Country Representative for India in the mid-1990s. Based in Calcutta, his office worked on a daily basis with the Missionaries of Charity, the religious order Mother Teresa founded and CRS’ local church partner in caring for India’s poor.

Mother would always be at the morning Mass… After Mass, she would greet any guests who had come to the house at the time, give them blessings [and] Miraculous Medals, and hear their stories.

In the afternoon, the sisters normally would have a period where they would have private prayer and come together as the Missionaries of Charity. After that, they would have an open prayer service that other people could join.

One of the things that she mandated for her sisters was that they had a priest nearby. Prayer and Mass were very, very important for her and her order.

She was not shy to say that she was Catholic, that she believed in Jesus and that she followed the teachings of Jesus, and that she saw Jesus in the people in which she served. At the same time, I never heard her critique or criticize any other religion.

[Mother said] Where you come from [America], there may not be this grinding poverty that you see here, but you do have the spiritual poverty." END QUOTES

And this:
“…not once did Mother Teresa inch away from her Catholic faith. Instead of collaborating, she fearlessly challenged groups operating under the guise of charity while promoting Third World population control. Rather than compromise, Mother Teresa fearlessly lived the Gospel and took on the abortion industry.” redstate.com/diary/svkenney/2012/08/14/catholic-relief-services-doubles-down-on-support-for-pro-abortion-groups/

zab, don’t you think it’s time to address the crux of the issue? There exists a decades-old body of ever-growing, detailed reports by numerous faithful, orthodox Catholics. Why is that; are the reports fabrications? Are the reporters malicious?

Moreover, to continue to deny that the reports from extraordinary Catholics (such as Judie Brown) are about actual occurrences implies that the criticism is an attack on the core Catholic teaching of charity. I don’t think you believe that.

The magnificent help CRS provides suffering people, can’t be and is not being denied on this thread.

*crisismagazine.com/2015/t…elief-services

 

[zab]

zab, the criticism of CRS to which you refer* is based on CRS, a very high-profile CATHOLIC ORGANIZATION saying it is proud of never evangelizing:
"We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith. We’re proud of that.

Your assertion that, “Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for”, is not true.
Here are excerpts from beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2007/09/Songs-In-The-Darkness-Mother-Teresas-Inner-Strength.aspx#

QUOTE
Sean Callahan of Catholic Relief Services was CRS’ Country Representative for India in the mid-1990s. Based in Calcutta, his office worked on a daily basis with the Missionaries of Charity, the religious order Mother Teresa founded and CRS’ local church partner in caring for India’s poor.

Mother would always be at the morning Mass… After Mass, she would greet any guests who had come to the house at the time, give them blessings [and] Miraculous Medals, and hear their stories.

In the afternoon, the sisters normally would have a period where they would have private prayer and come together as the Missionaries of Charity. After that, they would have an open prayer service that other people could join.

One of the things that she mandated for her sisters was that they had a priest nearby. Prayer and Mass were very, very important for her and her order.

She was not shy to say that she was Catholic, that she believed in Jesus and that she followed the teachings of Jesus, and that she saw Jesus in the people in which she served. At the same time, I never heard her critique or criticize any other religion.

[Mother said] Where you come from [America], there may not be this grinding poverty that you see here, but you do have the spiritual poverty." END QUOTES

And this:
“…not once did Mother Teresa inch away from her Catholic faith. Instead of collaborating, she fearlessly challenged groups operating under the guise of charity while promoting Third World population control. Rather than compromise, Mother Teresa fearlessly lived the Gospel and took on the abortion industry.” redstate.com/diary/svkenney/2012/08/14/catholic-relief-services-doubles-down-on-support-for-pro-abortion-groups/

zab, don’t you think it’s time to address the crux of the issue? There exists a decades-old body of ever-growing, detailed reports by numerous faithful, orthodox Catholics. Why is that; are the reports fabrications? Are the reporters malicious?

Moreover, to continue to deny that the reports from extraordinary Catholics (such as Judie Brown) are about actual occurrences implies that the criticism is an attack on the core Catholic teaching of charity. I don’t think you believe that.

The magnificent help CRS provides suffering people, can’t be and is not being denied on this thread.

*crisismagazine.com/2015/t…elief-services

You are taking the CRS quote out of context and there is nothing that I wrote in my post that is contrary to what was in the article regarding the daily life of Mother Teresa. I do think that some people do not understand her spiritual struggles and by calling them doubt.

 

[KSU]

You are taking the CRS quote out of context Not so. It was the entire quote as published by CNN’s “Belief” blog, and CNN’s context was, “One of the world’s largest faith-based organizations doesn’t even like the “missionary” label, according to a [CRS] spokesman, because of the word’s association with proselytizing.” and there is nothing that I wrote in my post that is contrary to what was in the article regarding the daily life of Mother Teresa. Again not so. I gave you more than enough factual evidence, provided by the CRS employee who knew her best, that she did in fact proselytize, thus flatly contradicting your assertion that she did not.

 

[zab]

KSU wrote: Again not so. I gave you more than enough factual evidence, provided by the CRS employee who knew her best, that she did in fact proselytize, thus flatly contradicting your assertion that she did not.

You are incorrect. Here is a story printed in the National Catholic Register responding to charges of proselytizing against the Missionaries of Charity. ncregister.com/daily-news/conversion-charge-against-mother-teresa-stirs-national-protest/

 

[KSU]

You are incorrect. Here is a story printed in the National Catholic Register responding to charges of proselytizing against the Missionaries of Charity. ncregister.com/daily-news/conversion-charge-against-mother-teresa-stirs-national-protest/

When you are in a hole, my friend, stop digging. The crux of the Register’s article is the refutation of an absurd political attack on Mother’s life work: a statement by the chief of India’s Hindu nationalist lobby claiming that Mother’s goal was not service to the poorest of the poor, but “conversion.”

Nothing in the article refutes my sourced confirmation, including the CRS person closest to her, that Mother did in fact proselytize, contrary to your assertion that she did not.

But, zab, what Mother Teresa did or didn’t do isn’t relevant to the matter at issue. You didn’t introduce her into this discussion as a diversion from my questions, did you.

 

[zab]

When you are in a hole, my friend, stop digging. The crux of the Register’s article is the refutation of an absurd political attack on Mother’s life work: a statement by the chief of India’s Hindu nationalist lobby claiming that Mother’s goal was not service to the poorest of the poor, but “conversion.”

Nothing in the article refutes my sourced confirmation, including the CRS person closest to her, that Mother did in fact proselytize, contrary to your assertion that she did not.

But, zab, what Mother Teresa did or didn’t do isn’t relevant to the matter at issue. You didn’t introduce her into this discussion as a diversion from my questions, did you.

I am not in a hole. I’m very comfortable where I am at.

 

[zab]

When you are in a hole, my friend, stop digging. The crux of the Register’s article is the refutation of an absurd political attack on Mother’s life work: a statement by the chief of India’s Hindu nationalist lobby claiming that Mother’s goal was not service to the poorest of the poor, but “conversion.”

Nothing in the article refutes my sourced confirmation, including the CRS person closest to her, that Mother did in fact proselytize, contrary to your assertion that she did not.

But, zab, what Mother Teresa did or didn’t do isn’t relevant to the matter at issue. You didn’t introduce her into this discussion as a diversion from my questions, did you.

servelec.net/mothertheresa.htm These words from Mother Teresa in a 1989 interview with Time Magazine says it all:
Time: What’s your greatest hope here in India?
Mother Teresa: To give Jesus to all.
Time: But you do not evangelize in the conventional sense of the term.
Mother Teresa: I’m evangelizing by my works of love.

 

[KSU]

servelec.net/mothertheresa.htm These words from Mother Teresa in a 1989 interview with Time Magazine says it all:
Time: What’s your greatest hope here in India?
Mother Teresa: To give Jesus to all.
Time: But you do not evangelize in the conventional sense of the term.
Mother Teresa: I’m evangelizing by my works of love.

QUOTE
Time: What’s your greatest hope here in India?

Mother Teresa: To give Jesus to all.

Time: But you do not evangelize in the conventional sense of the term.

Mother Teresa: I’m evangelizing by my works of love.

Time: Is that the best way?

Mother Teresa: For us, yes. For somebody else, something else. I’m evangelizing the way God wants me to. Jesus said go and preach to all the nations. We are now in so many nations preaching the Gospel by our works of love. “By the love that you have for one another will they know you are my disciples.” That’s the preaching that we are doing, and I think that is more real.

Time: Friends of yours say that you are disappointed that your work has not brought more conversions in this great Hindu nation.

Mother Teresa: Missionaries don’t think of that. They only want to proclaim the Word of God. Numbers have nothing to do with it. But the people are putting prayer into action by coming and serving the people. Continually people are coming to feed and serve, so many, you go and see. Everywhere people are helping. We don’t know the future. But the door is already open to Christ. There may not be a big conversion like that, but we don’t know what is happening in the soul. END QUOTE

Thank you, zab, you made my point. Even the article itself is a form of evangelizing for her, which is why she took the time. Now, contrast that with: “We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith. ** We’re proud of that.” **

No one said (nor was it the purpose of Tigg’s link) that CRS should engage in catechesis. But, CRS is a very high visibility organization that could be the face of Catholicism around the world.

There are various ways to show Christ’s face, i.e., to “evangelize,” without forced discussion of the Faith. Sure as the Lord made little green apples, proclaiming pride in not even mentioning Catholicism, and openly, proudly partnering with the culture of death is not one of them.

 

[zab]

QUOTE
Time: What’s your greatest hope here in India?

Mother Teresa: To give Jesus to all.

Time: But you do not evangelize in the conventional sense of the term.

Mother Teresa: I’m evangelizing by my works of love.

Time: Is that the best way?

Mother Teresa: For us, yes. For somebody else, something else. I’m evangelizing the way God wants me to. Jesus said go and preach to all the nations. We are now in so many nations preaching the Gospel by our works of love. “By the love that you have for one another will they know you are my disciples.” That’s the preaching that we are doing, and I think that is more real.

Time: Friends of yours say that you are disappointed that your work has not brought more conversions in this great Hindu nation.

Mother Teresa: Missionaries don’t think of that. They only want to proclaim the Word of God. Numbers have nothing to do with it. But the people are putting prayer into action by coming and serving the people. Continually people are coming to feed and serve, so many, you go and see. Everywhere people are helping. We don’t know the future. But the door is already open to Christ. There may not be a big conversion like that, but we don’t know what is happening in the soul. END QUOTE

Thank you, zab, you made my point. Even the article itself is a form of evangelizing for her, which is why she took the time. Now, contrast that with: “We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith. **We’re proud of that.” **

No one said (nor was it the purpose of Tigg’s link) that CRS should engage in catechesis. But, CRS is a very high visibility organization that could be the face of Catholicism around the world.

There are various ways to show Christ’s face, i.e., to “evangelize,” without forced discussion of the Faith. Sure as the Lord made little green apples, proclaiming pride in not even mentioning Catholicism, and openly, proudly partnering with the culture of death is not one of them.

I wrote this about Mother Teresa “She evangelized by her example.” It is interesting how you take my words and twist them all around to now you are saying the very same thing that I said and denying that you ever said or implied that CRS should engage in catechesis, now that I have provided you the truth. Previously, You were insistent in saying that Mother Teresa “proselytized” . Not so according to the definition. Now, if this is how you treat me, then I am not impressed with your accusations against CRS.

 

[KSU]

In response to you post #111, let’s go back to your post #102 so that I can respond directly thereon in the hope you can better understand what I’m saying:

One criticism of CRS that has come up is that CRS does not evangelize by preaching the Gospel.That is a false allegation; no one criticized CRS for not preaching the gospel or for not catechizing the poor. The mission of CRS is to “to assist people on the basis of need, not creed, race or nationality.” No one said it’s not. Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for. She did not try to convert the Hindu or people of other religions to the Catholic Faith. No one said she or CRS should. She evangelized by her example.No, not JUST by example of serving the poor, but by the proactive, direct means of giving them blessings and Miraculous Medals, inviting them to pray with her, mandating that a priest be nearby, boldly saying she was practicing her Catholic faith, and by fearlessly challenging (not partnering or compromising with or accepting funding from) the culture of death groups. But she was happy to answer any questions about her Catholic Faith if anyone asked. That’s putting it mildly, but OKBut I suppose you can say that she had another mission in speaking to the world about her mission to the poor. I think it’s all one mission in her eyes, but OK There are many quotes from Mother Teresa that are very insightful and help people to grow spiritually.

Finally, zab, in your #111, you accuse me of falsely denying that I said or implied that CRS should engage in catechesis. Quote my words, please. In the event you don’t respond, let me state for the record that I do not believe CRS should engage in catechesis or in evangelization. Nor do I believe I said it should.

I’ll give you this much: you have succeded in diverting this thread away from the issue.

 

[zab]

In response to you post #111, let’s go back to your post #102 so that I can respond directly thereon in the hope you can better understand what I’m saying:

Finally, zab, in your #111, you accuse me of falsely denying that I said or implied that CRS should engage in catechesis. Quote my words, please. In the event you don’t respond, let me state for the record that I do not believe CRS should engage in catechesis or in evangelization. Nor do I believe I said it should.

I’ll give you this much: you have succeded in diverting this thread away from the issue.

It is not necessary for me to repost. It is there for people to read. I have been addressing accusations and slights against CRS. And after reading similar slights elsewhere on the internet (I believe there is even a link to that as well here) against the quote from CRS, and the implication that CRS does not evangelize, (post 42) I decided to address that issue which had been raised on this thread. So I did not divert the thread.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by KSU
Finally, zab, in your #111, you accuse me of falsely denying that I said or implied that CRS should engage in catechesis. Quote my words, please. In the event you don’t respond, let me state for the record that I do not believe CRS should engage in catechesis or in evangelization. Nor do I believe I said it should.

It is not necessary for me to repost. It is there for people to read. I have been addressing accusations and slights against CRS. And after reading similar slights elsewhere on the internet (I believe there is even a link to that as well here) against the quote from CRS, and the implication that CRS does not evangelize, I decided to address that issue which had been raised on this thread. So I did not divert the thread.

I am having trouble following what you mean, but, zab, understand that I mean no disrespect. It’s my fault as much as yours because I couldn’t help going along with the Mother Teresa-type evangelization side issue–who doesn’t love her?

 

[zab]

zab, the criticism of CRS to which you refer* is based on CRS, a very high-profile CATHOLIC ORGANIZATION saying it is proud of never evangelizing:
"We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith. We’re proud of that.

Your assertion that, “Not even Mother Teresa attempted to catechize the poor whom she cared for”,** is not true.**

Nothing in the article refutes my sourced confirmation, including the CRS person closest to her, that Mother did in fact proselytize, contrary to your assertion that she did not.

Originally Posted by KSU
Finally, zab, in your #111, you accuse me of falsely denying that I said or implied that CRS should engage in catechesis. Quote my words, please. In the event you don’t respond,** let me state for the record that I do not believe CRS should engage in catechesis or in evangelization. Nor do I believe I said it should.**

I am having trouble following what you mean, but, zab, understand that I mean no disrespect. It’s my fault as much as yours because I couldn’t help going along with the Mother Teresa-type evangelization side issue–who doesn’t love her?

If you do not believe that CRS should be engaged in catechesis, then why all of the disagreements with my posts? Why the concern over the CRS comment that they assist people of all backgrounds and religions and do not engage in discussing the faith?

 

[KSU]

If you do not believe that CRS should be engaged in catechesis, then why all of the disagreements with my posts?**My disagreements very clearly were in regard to what you said about Mother, not CRS. How could you have misunderstood that? For the third time, I never said that CRS should be engaged in catechesis, proselytization, conversion or direct evangelization; nor did the fellow in Tigg’s link. ** Why the concern over the CRS comment that they assist people of all backgrounds and religions and do not engage in discussing the faith? ** Again, I had no concern per se that they said that. My concern, most of which was expressed in the said link, with which I agree, was SOLEY in regard to CRS (the international face of U. S. Catholicism and the Catholic Bishops of the United States) publicly expressing PRIDE that they don’t, and publicly stating that they don’t even like the “missionary” label, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME partnering with and compromising with and accepting funding from the culture of death groups. I know you can grasp the terrible irony (to put it charitably), and I wonder why you defend it. **