Lesbian but not

[BrigitteMoore]

I been living in chastity, and I’m a lesbian, but a year ago I fell in love with a woman. A few months later she told me she’s a mtf transsexual but she’s straight. So technically she’s a guy, but she had all the surgeries (all of them) making her a woman. She passes completely too so I see her as one… But at the time I told her I couldn’t because I’m catholic and gay actions are wrong. Then knowing she was once a guy changed things and I started dating her.

She asked me to marry her, and I told yes. She’s still a guy in legal terms so it was accepted.

Would this still be a homosexual relationship? Weird question but I think really it’s a straight one now.

 

[Belle777]

Wow, that’s tricky.
I will say that even though I have mixed feelings on what’s right or wrong gay wise, it’s admirable faith that even though you’re lesbian, you don’t practice it since it goes against Catholicism.
Not sure what to say about if you’re currently in a hetero relationship or not, though.

I guess now is a good time to confess I’m bisexual and head over heals for a rather masculine woman.
I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, so I’m not acting on it just to be safe, so I guess we’re both trying our best despite what we want.
And yes, I know the Catholic church’s stance on same sex relationships.
I’d like to point out that I understand most of the Catholic reasoning, but can’t help my feelings for the most part.

Aaand I just hijacked your thread to yap about myself.
I say just be careful and think about what love is in God’s eyes.
Being self-less and forgiving, no matter what.

 

[BrigitteMoore]

Yeah I never acted on it but I’m still young (22) and she looks more like a woman than me, she can probably get any guy (until she tells him the truth) because she looks like Kate Moss (I’m not kidding either) I was shock when she told me but she proved she was a guy with old pictures and stuff.

So I can’t even relate to her as a man but she was one, so now I think this isn’t a sin.

 

[Belle777]

Homosexuality in the Catholic church is a pretty sensitive subject.
Maybe this is a blessing of sorts…
The two of you are technically in a hetero relationship, now that I look at it, but because of the circumstances, you can still enjoy your sexuality.
I’m probably not speaking on behalf of the church very well, I confess, and to the other Catholics, I apologize.
I mean no disrespect.
I’ve taken a virginity vow until I can sort out what is good for me.

 

[Oreoracle]

Would this still be a homosexual relationship? Weird question but I think really it’s a straight one now.

Homosexuality, in your case, can be considered the attraction to females or the attraction to femininity. In the latter sense, it is a homosexual relationship (you implied he enacts feminine behavior, which I assume you’re attracted to). As for the Church, I believe they hold that one cannot change their initial sex as far as the soul goes.

 

[wjp984]

That is an interesting technicality but I think you know the answer in your heart and my guess is it is still immoral.

Were you allowed to be married in a Catholic Church? I am assuming you probably were not since you would not be asking this question if you were.

Did you receive a dispensation to marry outside the Catholic Church? Again, I assume the answer is no since you probably would have answered these questions already.

If the answer is in fact no, then regardless of whether you are civilly married, you are not in a valid Catholic marriage and therefore still sinning by engaging in sexual activity.

Since you mentioned your spouse has gone through all the surguries, I assume he can no longer have children. While being infertile, but where the sexual act is still possible, is not an impediment to marriage, where the act itself is impossible, then I don’t think there can be a valid marriage. In any regard, it’s probably worth a fight to try and argue your case and get the marriage approved by the Church. Just be prepared to accept whatever answer you receive, after of course you appeal.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

I’d be very, very cautious. I sent you a message with my thoughts about the subject. To phrase it politely, did the operation change him below the belt?

And thinking about it, it might just be better to avoid it, better safe than sorry.

 

[BrigitteMoore]

Were not married yet that’s why I’m asking but in June and it is in a catholic church she represented herself as a guy even though it was tough.

 

[Belle777]

This actually brings up the question ‘If marriage is only acceptable if the couple can pro-create, what about infertile but straight couples?’

 

[wjp984]

God can make miracles with what is natural. There is Biblical proof of this with Abraham’s wife, Sarah, and Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin.

God can also do anything He wants so technically he can make a miracle with a gay couple since God is omnipotent, but that defies logic and what is natural and contrary to His law.

 

[Belle777]

Well, the ‘is homosexuality right or wrong’ debate can go on forever, so I’ll end mine here.
nod
I just hope you nice people don’t think too less of me now that I’ve revealed I’m bi.
Mind you, I don’t plan on trying to change your opinions on homosexuality.
Just letting you know there are bi/gay/lesbian/transgender Catholics who struggle with finding comfort in who they are while still following the church.

 

[BrigitteMoore]

This actually brings up the question ‘If marriage is only acceptable if the couple can pro-create, what about infertile but straight couples?’

Well we could procreate but it wouldn’t be natural since it is saved in a bank before the transformation.

So if this doesn’t change someone I guess he is still a guy and it’s heterosexual. Because if it’s a gay relationship that’s saying transsexuals can change…

 

[kage_ar]

In order for marriage to be vaild, the couple must have the ability to consumate the marriage with penile/vaginal intercourse. As the man you wish to marry has mutilated his body and had his penis removed, there can be no consumation, therefore, no marriage.

I would suggest you find a good confessor and spiritual director and seek solace in the sacraments. The support group “Courage” would be a good place to go for peer to peer support from Catholics.

 

[Shadark]

First off, I’d like to say this is the best forum topic I’ve read in a while. Talk about a moral dilemma, it’s brilliant!

I’m not a Catholic, but I have a feeling that although they CAN technically marry you two, they probably won’t want to because of the large uncertainty of the issue. Maybe a dispensation to marry outside the Catholic church could be a good way to go. You also mention that your partner banked his/her sperm before the op. I think that was a good idea on his/her part so you have my encouragement for you two to have children as well when the time is right. The way I see it is, this guy spiritually is still is as he was when he was born. The only difference now is that he’s a changed his appearance. Quite dramatically I know, but he/she was still born a man and in some ways still is. Plus you partner may change back to a male appearance again later in life (I’ve read about it before), so what would the church think then?

This also kind of begs the question as to the characteristic of the soul. Does it have a gender? Myself, I don’t think so, because there would be no purpose to it. Gender is only needed for procreation, not identity.

 

[AdriannaJean]

You also mention that your partner banked his/her sperm before the op. I think that was a good idea on his/her part so you have my encouragement for you two to have children as well when the time is right.

The OP is Catholic so IVF is considered immoral.

but he/she was still born a man and in some ways still is. Plus you partner may change back to a male appearance again later in life (I’ve read about it before), so what would the church think then?
.

If he were to re-assume a male appearance and admit that his foray into transsexuality was a grave sin and repent, then it would be ok in the eyes of the Church. We are all sinners, we all make mistakes. But for now, this man is living as a woman, opposing what God has called him to be. And the idea that he came dressed as a man to the meeting with a priest just so you two could get the ok to marry is wrong. Fooling a priest does not mean you are fooling God.

By the sound of it, this man does not wish to stop living his life as a woman. You can’t marry him until that change occurs.

Even if you did get married, since this man has no penis you could never do anything sexual because foreplay is only ok when it leads to vaginal intercourse where the man climaxes uncontracepted. How would you feel being married but never sharing physical intimacy?

I don’t think there are any hard-and-fast rules about this. If I were you I would err on the side of caution. Explain the ENTIRE situation to not one priest, but many and get a general consensus on the issue. The priest needs to know that this man is living as a woman and (I presume) intending on continuing to do so after you two marry.

 

[Shadark]

I think there is a place for IVF in situations where sperm delivered by the penis isn’t possible. What are a married Catholic couple supposed to do if the husband has an erectile dysfunction problem or a damaged penis? The OP would still be using the sperm of her ‘husband’, it’s just not coming out of his penis. I guess we go deeper and ask what if this guy goes back to being a guy and wants to have children?

I always associated a sex change with identity rather than sexuality. This person’s sexuality is still straight so to speak. I mean what does it mean to be a woman, what does it mean to feel feminine?

AdriannaJean:

Even if you did get married, since this man has no penis you could never do anything sexual because foreplay is only ok when it leads to vaginal intercourse where the man climaxes uncontracepted. How would you feel being married but never sharing physical intimacy?

Can you please clarify what you mean here. Are you saying that you can’t have sex without foreplay, and that orgasm can only be achieved through intercourse? Why can’t they share physical intimacy without having to insert something inside the other person. The OP said she’s a lesbian anyway, so a penis obviously isn’t her cup of tea.

AdriannaJean:

I don’t think there are any hard-and-fast rules about this. If I were you I would err on the side of caution. Explain the ENTIRE situation to not one priest, but many and get a general consensus on the issue. The priest needs to know that this man is living as a woman and (I presume) intending on continuing to do so after you two marry.

I whole heartily agree.

 

[scameter]

Well, the ‘is homosexuality right or wrong’ debate can go on forever, so I’ll end mine here.
nod
I just hope you nice people don’t think too less of me now that I’ve revealed I’m bi.
Mind you, I don’t plan on trying to change your opinions on homosexuality.
Just letting you know there are bi/gay/lesbian/transgender Catholics who struggle with finding comfort in who they are while still following the church.

I have to say that I’m sorry you feel, and have felt before, ashamed to admit your sexual orientation as a Catholic and to other Catholics. Being bisexual is not something you can help, according to the Church, and is most certainly not a license for other Catholics to act hatefully, scornfully, or in any way non-loving or discriminating towards you. It is wrong to practice homosexual sex because you are going against God’s omniscient loving plan, but that doesn’t mean you have any less worth or dignity than any other person. Nothing can separate anyone from the love of God, and because of that, your worth and dignity cannot be removed; only ignored by people, including yourself. Again, I am sorrowful for your feelings, and I pray that you find the inner strength from yourself and guidance from God to overcome your temptation, as we all should.

And, about the actual issue posed in the initial post of this topic: To me, from my own reasoning and understanding of the Church, it is sinful for a person to mutilate and hate their body that God gave them enough to change it’s gender, or try to, and I think that this would make marriage with a voluntarily-transgendered person a sin against truth, i.e. a lie, because they are not what they actually are gender-wise. Thus, I think the marriage would be wrong, even beyond a woman marrying someone she sees as a woman, whether the person is or not, which would make it homosexual. But, I apply what I said in my first paragraph of this post to transgendered people do. They should be loved as much as anyone else. I also think people born transgendered, homosexual, bisexual, etc., should take it as a special calling from God to be celibate for the Kingdom and to serve God and humanity completely.

 

[PaulinVA]

Were not married yet that’s why I’m asking but in June and it is in a catholic church she represented herself as a guy even though it was tough.

Well, if you lie to the priest/deacon about your circumstances then that pretty much invalidates the whole thing. Pretty much a sacrilege, isn’t it?

This is very troubling. I feel for you and your situation.

 

[Shannon9791]

I been living in chastity, and I’m a lesbian, but a year ago I fell in love with a woman. A few months later she told me she’s a mtf transsexual but she’s straight. So technically she’s a guy, but she had all the surgeries (all of them) making her a woman. She passes completely too so I see her as one… But at the time I told her I couldn’t because I’m catholic and gay actions are wrong. Then knowing she was once a guy changed things and I started dating her.

She asked me to marry her, and I told yes. She’s still a guy in legal terms so it was accepted.

Would this still be a homosexual relationship? Weird question but I think really it’s a straight one now.

I have a question, and I hope you don’t think it inappropriate. Has your significant other always been attracted to females, even before the operations?

 

[Catholic90]

I think there is a place for IVF in situations where sperm delivered by the penis isn’t possible. What are a married Catholic couple supposed to do if the husband has an erectile dysfunction problem or a damaged penis? The OP would still be using the sperm of her ‘husband’, it’s just not coming out of his penis. I guess we go deeper and ask what if this guy goes back to being a guy and wants to have children?

I always associated a sex change with identity rather than sexuality. This person’s sexuality is still straight so to speak. I mean what does it mean to be a woman, what does it mean to feel feminine?

Can you please clarify what you mean here. Are you saying that you can’t have sex without foreplay, and that orgasm can only be achieved through intercourse? Why can’t they share physical intimacy without having to insert something inside the other person. The OP said she’s a lesbian anyway, so a penis obviously isn’t her cup of tea.

I whole heartily agree.

Foreplay is allowed, but the act ALWAYS has to end with the male’s penis ejaculating in the woman. Pretty difficult if the man has no penis…

To the OP, if you and your friend are lying to get married, the marriage is pretty much invalid.