Lesbian ordained in the Lutheran Church despite refusal to take vow of celibacy

[mommyof4]

Opps
I thought they were running…for Mayor of New York
Apologies to all the pro abortion folks I might have offended -fingers crossed

I highly doubt that you will run into too many pro abortion folks on this forum. They get run out of town pretty fast around here!

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

As you know that I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim. We believe from Quran/Islam/Muhammad that celibacy had never been requirement of the religion, as it is unnatural, I mean curbing a natural human faculty is not good.

After the first miraculous conception, Mary married Joseph and had children from him. Jesus also got married and had children; at least that is what I understand from Quran.

Quran.

[13:37] And those to whom We have given the Book rejoice in what has been revealed to thee. And of the different parties there are some who deny part thereof. Say 'I am only commanded to worship Allah and not to set up equals to Him. Unto Him do I call and unto Him is my return.
[13:38] And thus have We revealed it, a clear judgement in Arabic. And if thou follow their evil desires after the knowledge that has come to thee, thou shalt have no friend nor defender against Allah.
[13:39] **And, indeed, We sent Messengers before thee, and We gave them wives and children. And it is not possible for a Messenger to bring a Sign save by the command of Allah. For every term there is a divine decree. **
[13:40] Allah effaces and establishes what He wills, and with Him is the source of all commandments.

[57:26] Verily, We sent Our Messengers with manifest Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may act with justice; and We sent down iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and diverse uses for mankind, and that Allah may know those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.
[57:27] And indeed We sent Noah and Abraham, and We placed among their seed Prophethood and the Book. So some of them followed the guidance, but many of them were rebellious.
[57:28] Then We caused Our Messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow them, and We gave him the Gospel. And We put compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. **And monasticism they invented - We did not prescribe it for them - for the seeking of Allah’s pleasure; but they observed it not as it should be observed. **Yet We gave those of them, who believed, their due reward, but many of them are rebellious.
[57:29] O ye who believe! fear Allah and believe in His Messenger. He will give you a double portion of His Mercy, and will provide for you a light wherein you will walk, and will grant you forgiveness - verily, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful -
Unquote

I respect you and your religion, and I love Jesus and Mary from the core of my heart.

Thanks

 

[Valke2]

The culture of death is a term we Catholic uses. Homosexuality falls into this catagory because homosexual unions is Anti-life. In homosexual unions, there is no life giving gift compared to union between a man and woman in marriage.

In the marriage between a man and woman, life is given. Through their act of love, a new life is given. They part take in the creative work of God, by granting them a gift of a new born child.

Homosexual unions don’t. There acts does not produce life. No child is produce in the relationship. They had to look towards adaptation or use medical means to make one through invitro.

The culture of death is a term used by Pope John Paul II.

The Culture of Death represents the ultimate degeneration of the entire civilization, and it represents nothing less than total opposition to God and his authority over the spectrum of life and death–indeed over every dimension of morality.

How is a homosexual union any more anti life then a priest taking a vow of celibacy?

 

[Hellisreal]

What is their stand?

elca.org/SocialStatements/abortion/

Read it in entirety. Also note what made addendum and not popular vote (since that is how they determine doctrine)

Pray for their lukewarm position on murder to end.

 

[Hellisreal]

How is a homosexual union any more anti life then a priest taking a vow of celibacy?

The ability to procreate is not the issue.

The abuse of the gift of sex is.

 

[Hellisreal]

Opps
I thought they were running…for Mayor of New York

I thought that was what you meant!

Good to see you here Brian. You wont find people misunderstanding you here.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How is a homosexual union any more anti life then a priest taking a vow of celibacy?

Priests in the Latin Rite only taken the vow of celibacy. Our Eastern Rite have married priests, and some in the Latin Churches, certain men who converted from Lutheran and Anglican may dispense to be ordain as married priests.

I disagree that priests who takes a vow of celibacy is anti-life. It isn’t.

For one, it is the priests who baptises adults and children, which gives us eternal life. Since baptism does indeed saved according to Catholic teaching.

Two, the priests also gives confirmations and provides Holy Communion, and anyone who received the Holy Eucharist worthily will have eternal life. For Jesus said:

**Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. **

**He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. **

When we received the Body and Blood of the Lord. We are given spiritual gift of eternal life. For we received the Lord himself before us.

In confession, when a Catholic commits a mortal sin, he is cut himself off from God. Through confession, the priests in Persona Christi, restores penitent relation with God and his Church. His spiritual life is restored.

While man and woman gives physical life to a new born. Priests gives life to us through spiritual means. Without them, there is no Mass. No Mass no Church.

 

[Valke2]

The ability to procreate is not the issue.

The abuse of the gift of sex is.

Ok. A previous poster had stated that the issue was the fact that there was no procreation. I’m paraphrasing.

 

[Valke2]

Priests in the Latin Rite only taken the vow of celibacy. Our Eastern Rite have married priests, and some in the Latin Churches, certain men who converted from Lutheran and Anglican may dispense to be ordain as married priests.

I disagree that priests who takes a vow of celibacy is anti-life. It isn’t.

I don’t think a vow of celibacy is anti-life either. But I also don’t believe a homosexual relationship is anti-life or a “culture of death”. If it were to be considered as such, then vows of celibacy would have to be examined under the same light.

I enjoyed the balance of your post. thank you.

 

[Metaron]

Wow. You’re thinking the priesthood? Awesome, God bless you, and keep you safe in Iraq. May only good things happen to you, Mannyfit75.

I’m also considering the priesthood, although I’m still going through RCIA. Before I converted from Anglicanism, I was scheduled to take my diaconate vows in the Anglican Catholic Church next year. I’m just not sure, yet, because in the Anglican Catholic Church priests can marry, but no in the Roman Catholic Church (Catholic Rite). Maybe I’ll go Maronite?

 

[Metaron]

I don’t think a vow of celibacy is anti-life either. But I also don’t believe a homosexual relationship is anti-life or a “culture of death”. If it were to be considered as such, then vows of celibacy would have to be examined under the same light.

I enjoyed the balance of your post. thank you.

But homosexual acts are non-procreative. So they are a part of the death culture. A priest does not commit acts (or shouldn’t, anyway) that are sexual, yet non-procreative. His wife is the Church.

 

[Valke2]

I’m not trying to bring this subect to the absurd, but I’m truly interested in this topic. Is a sexual act between two heterosexuals who are using contraceptive devices part of the culture of death? Or having sex for any reason other than procreation?

 

[Metaron]

I’m not trying to bring this subect to the absurd, but I’m truly interested in this topic. Is a sexual act between two heterosexuals who are using contraceptive devices part of the culture of death? Or having sex for any reason other than procreation?

Yes. Contraception was the harbinger of the sexual revolution of the 50’s and 60’s, and it is condemned by Ex Cathedra Papal Writings and the Catechism. It is a grave sin.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Wow. You’re thinking the priesthood? Awesome, God bless you, and keep you safe in Iraq. May only good things happen to you, Mannyfit75.

I’m also considering the priesthood, although I’m still going through RCIA. Before I converted from Anglicanism, I was scheduled to take my diaconate vows in the Anglican Catholic Church next year. I’m just not sure, yet, because in the Anglican Catholic Church priests can marry, but no in the Roman Catholic Church (Catholic Rite). Maybe I’ll go Maronite?

Well, you can dispense and get papal approval to be ordain priests. There is a Catholic chaplain here who was a Lutheran minister and is married. He is a convert, and is married. The Church has dispense and ordained him as priest.

Here is some information about priesthood.

catholicplanet.com/articles/instruction002.htm

Here is some answers.

In the West, that is, in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, the ordinary path to the priesthood is through celibacy and chastity, not by way of marriage. There are today some married priests in the Latin Rite. Some of these had been married Anglican ministers. When they and most of their congregation converted to the Catholic faith, these married men were permitted to be ordained as Catholic priests and to continue their married life and their ministry. Furthermore, when all the Protestant Churches repent and unite with the Catholic Church (in the early 2020’s), many married Protestant ministers will also convert and will become married Catholic priests.

Married men are sometimes permitted to become priests because it is fitting to advance from a lower calling to a higher calling. But even better still is the man who begins with the higher calling and perseveres in it.

I like to note that married men can become priests if they had been ministers in Lutheran or Anglican Church and can dispense. However, priests cannot marry. This is both in the West and East traditions of our Church.

 

[Metaron]

Well, you can dispense and get papal approval to be ordain priests. There is a Catholic chaplain here who was a Lutheran minister and is married. He is a convert, and is married. The Church has dispense and ordained him as priest.

Here is some information about priesthood.

catholicplanet.com/articles/instruction002.htm

Here is some answers.

I like to note that married men can become priests if they had been ministers in Lutheran or Anglican Church and can dispense. However, priests cannot marry. This is both in the West and East traditions of our Church.

Thanks alot for the info! The thing is though, I’m not married nor did I ever complete my studies in the Anglican Catholic Church (Which has valid Holy Orders, by the way) to become a priest or deacon. But I was thinking about marriage (though I’m not dating anyone right now.) But I know if I become a Latin Rite Priest after I finish RCIA I will bar myself forever from being married…

 

[Hellisreal]

I’m not trying to bring this subect to the absurd, but I’m truly interested in this topic. Is a sexual act between two heterosexuals who are using contraceptive devices part of the culture of death? Or having sex for any reason other than procreation?

theologyofthebody.net/

I hope this site is helpful in expalining it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t think a vow of celibacy is anti-life either. But I also don’t believe a homosexual relationship is anti-life or a “culture of death”. If it were to be considered as such, then vows of celibacy would have to be examined under the same light.

I enjoyed the balance of your post. thank you.

Valke,

You are entitled to your opinion. However, I like to note that there is a difference between priesthood and homosexuals. I like to point out some key points.

1. The Scripture both the Old Testament and New Testament condemned the acts of homosexuality. God intended man and woman to be together.

Let quote Genesis 1:27

And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

In Genesis 2:24 it reads:

24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

We see God intended man and woman to together. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He is immutable. Therefore, marriage is intended for man and woman only.

You might ask why I posted this? Well, God never intended homosexuality as acceptible.

1. Celibacy is not condemned. There have been men in the Old Testament and New Testament who remain celibate. For example, men like Elijah, Elias, Jesus, and Paul. These men remain celibate all their life. They were not given into marriage. I’ll give from Scripture verse mainly from the New Testament. I know you aren’t a Christian and a Jew, but please consider the difference.

Scripture Condemns Homosexuality:

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination. (Lev. 18:22, 29).

13 If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them. (Lev. 20:13).

26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. 27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. (Romans 1:26-27 condemns male homosexuality and lesbianism between two women.

I could like to quote them all but here is a link which homosexuality is condemned from Scripture both OT and NT. I also like to add that Sodom and Gammorah was destroyed because of active homosexual individuals.

scripturecatholic.com/homosexuality.html More Scriptural text condemning homosexuality.

Now let’s take a look at Celibacy? Is it condemned in Scripture?

11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. (Matt. 19:11-12)

29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first. (Matt 19:29-30. Here Jesus said that anyone who gives up family life, will be reward in heaven.).

6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt. 10 But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. (1 Corinthians 7:6-9).

From Scripture, we see homosexual acts condemned. We see celibacy is recommended or praised. I do not think you can equate homosexual against celibacy. For those who are given into celibacy, their calling his higher. They seek first the Kingdom of God. They live only to serve him and are not bound by worldly affairs.

Comparing homosexual acts and celibacy is like comparing apples and oranges. We see in Scripture the two are completely oppose to one another.

More Scriptura support for celibacy:

scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-IV

I hope this will enlighten you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thanks alot for the info! The thing is though, I’m not married nor did I ever complete my studies in the Anglican Catholic Church (Which has valid Holy Orders, by the way) to become a priest or deacon. But I was thinking about marriage (though I’m not dating anyone right now.) But I know if I become a Latin Rite Priest after I finish RCIA I will bar myself forever from being married…

Don’t consider being marriage as a burden. Marriage is a sacrament. It is a blessing. It is also your calling, your vocation. I like to note that we are now living in the Age of the Laity. Due to the lack of priests, the Catholic laity has taken the step to preached the Gospel and do apostolate work.

Scott Hahn, and his wife Kimberly Hahn is a great example. You could also consider becoming a Deacon. A married man can enter into the deaconate. He can also be a single. Deacons can preach the Gospel, assist the priest at the Mass.

Here is some information about Deacons from Wikipedia:

The ministry of the deacon in the Roman Catholic Church is described as one of service in three areas: the Word, the Altar and Charity. The deacon’s ministry of the Word includes proclaiming the Gospel at the Eucharist, preaching and teaching. His ministry at the Altar includes various parts of the Mass proper to the deacon, including being the proper minister of the cup. The ministry of charity involves service to the poor and marginalized and working with parishioners to help them become more involved in such ministry.

Deacons can administer the sacrament of Baptism and serve as the church’s witness at the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, which the bride and groom administer to each other. Deacons may preside at funerals, the Liturgy of the Hours, various services such as Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament and they may give blessings. They cannot give absolution, anoint the sick, or say Mass. In the liturgy, it is proper for the deacon to proclaim the Gospel (in fact, a priest, bishop, or even the Pope may not proclaim the Gospel if a deacon is present) and distribute Holy Communion. Transitional and permanent deacons both have the faculty to preach the homily by right of their ordination unless the priest presider retains that ministry to himself in any particular liturgy

Don’t be sadden of your marriage state. Accept it as a part of God’s will.

 

[Metaron]

But I’m not married, yet. I just can’t decide if I should be a priest or a married man. But your information is helpful. Thanks. Maybe I should become a deacon. Can they marry after ordination or only before?

 

[Mannyfit75]

But I’m not married, yet. I just can’t decide if I should be a priest or a married man. But your information is helpful. Thanks. Maybe I should become a deacon. Can they marry after ordination or only before?

They should be married prior to becoming a deacon. Single deacons cannot get married.

If you do marry, and consider the deaconate, you should ask your wife FIRST before going forward.

Are you currently seeing a woman?

Here is a Q&A on Deacons:

deacons.net/index.htm