Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

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zerinus said:
It is obvious that you are at your wit’s end. You are at the end of your tether. You are incapable of responding to a direct theological challenge, therefore you resort to personal attacks.

zerinus
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You choose to see an attack where there is none. And I am hardly at my wits end. You could never get me there you don’t have the power to do so.
 
zerinus said:
We don’t claim to have a monopoly of good ideas. The Catholic Church is so blatantly wrong on some doctrinal matters that it is to be expected that other people before us should have identified them. The Protestants are right about many errors that they have identified in Catholicism; and the Catholics are right about many errors they have identified in Protestantism; and we are right about many errors that we have identified in both.

zerinus
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That is a very childlike, by which I mean “oversimplified” (which is to say typically Protestant) assessment.

The fact remains that Mormonism was fathered by Martin Luther. Most Mormons admit this. Only the most venomous Mormons deny Protestant lineage. You act Protestant, for instance in your disrespect for the Mother of God, not because you are finding Scriptural support for your position, but because the successors of Luther bred that disrespect into Protestantism as it evolved over the 300-odd years before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith inherited it from the Protestants with whom he went to church.

And never forget, Protestants object as strongly to Mormonism as Catholics. This is because Mormonism is a deviant offshoot from the Protestant sects of New York.
 
zerinus said:
Jesus qualifies to be our intercessor by virtue of His mediation role, which comes by virtue of His atoning sacrifice. Show me one verse in the Bible which teaches, suggest, or implies any other mediator or intercessor between God and man that Jesus Christ.
It does. If others were included, they would have been mentioned. Jesus is the only Redeemer, the only mediator, the only propitiation, hence the only intercessor. Show me one passage in the Bible that mentions any other.
You are not. You are asking Mary’s help, or the Saints’ help, to intercede on your behalf to Jesus or to God. That is unbiblical and wrong.
Then wait until you get there, and ask them if they can help. You don’t pray to them. You pray to God.
Your faith is strong in whom? In Mary and the Saints? As Paul said: “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:12.) Likewise I say, was Mary crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of the Saints? There is only one Intercessor and object of faith mentioned in the Bible, and that is Jesus Christ. Show me one passage in the Bible that mentions, or implies, another.
No, you pray to Mary and the Saints. That is not the same as praying to God.
Then you should pray to Him direct, instead of going through Mary. Where does it say in the Bible that you need to do that.
Show me a verse in the Bible that says you need to do that. I don’t know of any that even implies it.

zerinus
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Gosh, this is just pure Protestant through and through. Too bad the Mormons don’t get close enough to the Church to actually be considered even Protestant. They’ve adopted some of the worst of Protestantism while adopting none of the Christ-centeredness of it.
 
Allweather said:
That is a very childlike, by which I mean “oversimplified” (which is to say typically Protestant) assessment.

The fact remains that Mormonism was fathered by Martin Luther. Most Mormons admit this. Only the most venomous Mormons deny Protestant lineage. You act Protestant, for instance in your disrespect for the Mother of God, not because you are finding Scriptural support for your position, but because the successors of Luther bred that disrespect into Protestantism as it evolved over the 300-odd years before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith inherited it from the Protestants with whom he went to church.

And never forget, Protestants object as strongly to Mormonism as Catholics. This is because Mormonism is a deviant offshoot from the Protestant sects of New York.
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Mormonism is true, and you will be damned if you reject it.

zerinus
 
Allweather said:
Gosh, this is just pure Protestant through and through. Too bad the Mormons don’t get close enough to the Church to actually be considered even Protestant. They’ve adopted some of the worst of Protestantism while adopting none of the Christ-centeredness of it.
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Is that the best you could come up with? How pathetic!

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
All I can say is that you are incapable of understanding plain reason. I had already explained the meaning of “vain repetition” in this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2071798&postcount=204

There is a world of difference between that, and the sacraments, or ordinances, performed in the Temple—or outside the temple, for that matter—hence my reference to baptism. We perform baptisms inside the Temple; and we also perform baptisms outside the temple. There is no difference, sacramentally, between baptisms performed in the Temple and those performed outside it—except that one is for the living, and the other is for the dead. Likewise we also perform confirmations and priesthood ordinations, both inside as well as outside the Temple; and there is no sacramental difference between them either. These ordinances are not prayers, they are ordinances; and we perform each ordinance for each individual once, not a hundred times—be they for the living or for the dead. That is not “vain repetition”. How do you think we should baptize people then? Change the formula every time?

There are also ordinances that are performed only inside the Temple, not outside it, such as the Endowment and washing and anointing; and the same criteria apply to them. We perform each ordinance for each individual once. We don’t change the ordinance every time we perform it. That is not “vain repetition”.

zerinus
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You explained it? No you used a definition that applies to you as well. You define the Rosary as vain but deny the same definition applied to your faith. A world of difference? Only in your eyes.
the more often they said it, the greater was the chance of their prayer being heard.
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This is untrue of the Rosary. We do not believe that the more often we say it the greater chance we will be heard.

There are no errors in Catholicism but Mormonism has so many that it would take a library to expound on all of them.
 
zerinus said:
Mormonism is true, and you will be damned if you reject it.

zerinus
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I know many Mormons, my hubby is x-LDS, now proud to be Catholic. None of the LDS I know have ever said that not being LDS would send anyone to damnation with the exception of LEAVING LDS religion. I have been told that if we do not accept Joseph Smith and LDS faith that we would go to a lower heaven, but never allowed to celestial heaven. Those who are sure to be damned are those who were LDS and have rejected that faith. My hubby being one of them. Leaving the LDS faith is the worst of all “crimes”. What a way to keep people from sending the letter of rejection. Happy Easter!

Love and peace
Mom of 5
 
zerinus said:
“Vain” repetition means “useless,” “pointless,” “foolish,” “unnecessary,” “futile” repetition. The actual context itself makes clear the meaning. It says: “for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” In other words, their error consisted in their thinking that the more often they said it, the greater was the chance of their prayer being heard. That is vain repetition. Well, the Rosary is a form of prayer, and it consists of repeatedly saying the same thing over and over, therefore it is “vain repetition”. God isn’t hard of hearing! You only need to say it once, and He hears!

zerinus
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**Why would you care since you claim to be such a devout mormon what we do with the rosary? **
PLEASE…Your vain repetition in the Temple is useless,” “pointless,” “foolish,” “unnecessary, “futile” repetition as you call it. What about this temple ceremony… when you must use the inside of the right foot… by the side of the right foot… knee to knee, breast to breast, hand to back, and mouth to ear Oh and lets not forget about the name of your Token and you have to repeat it back. Oh my… what if you mess it up? Repeat it over til you get it right??:rolleyes:
 
adrift said:
You explained it? No you used a definition that applies to you as well. You define the Rosary as vain but deny the same definition applied to your faith. A world of difference? Only in your eyes.
This is untrue of the Rosary. We do not believe that the more often we say it the greater chance we will be heard.

There are no errors in Catholicism but Mormonism has so many that it would take a library to expound on all of them.
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What is the difference between ordinances and your Mormon prayers then?
 
Allweather said:
Is that the best you could come up with? How pathetic!
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Okay, if you want a reference for it, here it is:

D&C 84:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it.

zerinus
 
GrammasRose said:
why bash at all? what purpose does it serve but to turn others away?
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In theory I agree with you, bashing does not help. But you must understand the judgements of sin. If we were silent about the issue at hand, in turn we ourselves would be sinning.
 
zerinus said:
Okay, if you want a reference for it, here it is:

D&C 84:

74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am.

75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it.

zerinus
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I’m afraid D&C and other Mormon “modern scriptures” don’t carry much weight 'round these parts.
 
zerinus said:
Well, so what? I disagree with them.

zerinus
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I seriously doubt you’ve read them. But, in case you have, could you be more specific about what, precisely, you “disagree” with? And why?

(here’s where the Mormon disappears for awhile)
 
zerinus said:
Too bad, cuz they are true.

zerinus
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I agree that some parts of the Mormon “modern scriptures” are true: the parts that were lifted out of the Holy Bible. The rest of it is pure fiction.

Heck, you take out all the plagarized Bible passages, and the it came to pass filler phrases, and the Book of Mormon is nothing but a pamphlet.
 
Allweather said:
I seriously doubt you’ve read them.
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You are right, I hadn’t! 😃
But, in case you have, could you be more specific about what, precisely, you “disagree” with? And why?
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Why should I? You didn’t write them. I am debating with you, not with the articles. If you have read them, and are convinced that they contain any valid arguments against what LDS believe, pick out the best one you can find, and bring it here, and we will talk about it. But you have shown repeatedly that you are incapable of doing that. You don’t think for yourself. You let the article do your thinking for you. If I were to read the article and criticise it, all you are going to do is to tell me that you accept what is in the article rather than what is said by me, and probably refer me to more articles. What is the point of doing that? That is no way to debate.

zerinus
 
CCCatholic17 said:
In theory I agree with you, bashing does not help. But you must understand the judgements of sin. If we were silent about the issue at hand, in turn we ourselves would be sinning.
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I agree. It is Zerinus I don’t agree with. He is bashing just for fun apparently.
 
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