Let Mormons be Mormon and Catholics be Catholics

[Dauphin]

I have always been of the belief that we as Mormons need to teach others about our church. Other religions, including Catholic need to teach us about their churches. We don’t need to teach each other about each other’s churches though. We learn much more the other way around.

I’m a computer programmer by trade, and for those computer programmers in the crowd, software development can be a very religious topic (no blasphemy intended). Often one software developer will say his preferred language is better than the others. My preferred language is Perl. Yet, I’ve come to find that delving into the other languages and finding the good things in them I’ve been able to come back to my preferred language, Perl, and make it better. Does it change the language? No - the language is still the same. I just introduce new ways of using the plain and simple logic behind the language to produce glorious things in my code.

I think between religions we can do the same. Let’s learn from each other! Let’s please not tell each other how to live our religions though. I think that’s the “Christian” (meaning “like Christ” in my meaning) thing to do.

Learning about eachother is just dandy, but leaving it at that simply isn’t good enough. Religion is about eternal truths - it’s not something where you can just choose your flavour and go with it. The language of “diversity” and “tolerance” is often used to convince people that it doesn’t matter what religion they’re in or what they believe, but this is completely false.

I wouldn’t be a good Catholic if I didn’t attempt to convince others of those things I consider truths. Although a degree of respect and understanding is required between religions, we ultimately must work towards the goal of proselytizing others.

 

[jstayii]

Learning about eachother is just dandy, but leaving it at that simply isn’t good enough. Religion is about eternal truths - it’s not something where you can just choose your flavour and go with it. The language of “diversity” and “tolerance” is often used to convince people that it doesn’t matter what religion they’re in or what they believe, but this is completely false.

I wouldn’t be a good Catholic if I didn’t attempt to convince others of those things I consider truths. Although a degree of respect and understanding is required between religions, we ultimately must work towards the goal of proselytizing others.

Oh, I agree we need to proselytize and teach about the Gospel. We wouldn’t be able to learn if that weren’t the case. However, I think pointing out flaws in each other is counter-productive, as it only offends the one whose flaws are being pointed out and drives away the Holy Spirit. If, instead we taught the Gospel of Christ, in its pure form, and let the Holy Spirit permeate those we teach, those being taught will feel it and see the Light themselves. The Gospel of Christ needs no convincing if it is truly understood.

 

[Dauphin]

Oh, I agree we need to proselytize and teach about the Gospel. We wouldn’t be able to learn if that weren’t the case. However, I think pointing out flaws in each other is counter-productive, as it only offends the one whose flaws are being pointed out and drives away the Holy Spirit. If, instead we taught the Gospel of Christ, in its pure form, and let the Holy Spirit permeate those we teach, those being taught will feel it and see the Light themselves. The Gospel of Christ needs no convincing if it is truly understood.

I wasn’t speaking only about the Gospels. I was referring to the entire deposit of faith, with which Mormons are in disagreement. It’s the responsibility of Catholics to share that faith, and point out its conflict with Mormon theology. It would be a ‘dereliction of duty’, so to speak, if we didn’t.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the ‘pure form’ of the Gospels. Which translation are you referring to?

As far as the influence of the Holy Spirit goes, it’s quite obvious that different interpretations of the Gospels and other scriptures will arise without some sort of central governing authority. This is evidenced by the massively divergent views of protestants which developed after the break in communion with Rome. We cannot expect a true understanding of faith if we simply leave the interpretation of a book up to individuals. This is the purpose the magesterium, which maintains the truth of scripture as well as that of the sacred oral traditions.

 

[jstayii]

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by the ‘pure form’ of the Gospels. Which translation are you referring to?

I was referring to the Gospel as in “The Word”, aka the teachings of Jesus Christ, not necessarily just “The Gospels” from the Bible.

As far as the influence of the Holy Spirit goes, it’s quite obvious that different interpretations of the Gospels and other scriptures will arise without some sort of central governing authority. This is evidenced by the massively divergent views of protestants which developed after the break in communion with Rome. We cannot expect a true understanding of faith if we simply leave the interpretation of a book up to individuals. This is the purpose the magesterium, which maintains the truth of scripture as well as that of the sacred oral traditions.

My point was that we should just preach our religion, not someone else’s. If the teachings of your religion are true, those truths will permeate the unbeliever. Truth, when understood, does not take convincing. I don’t think many Mormons really believe any of the faults pointed out in their religion. In fact, I’m pretty sure most are offended by it and only think worse of Catholicism (which I agree, they shouldn’t judge the church on such criticism) when their flaws are pointed out.

Yes, I’m Mormon, but that is my first instinct when people point out flaws to me.

 

[rmcmullan]

IOften one software developer will say his preferred language is better than the others. My preferred language is Perl.

Heretic!

 

[majick275]

Honestly? If I were to honor Christ’s teachings and preach His Gospel to both the Jew and the Gentile, I would do neither. I would preach to them the beauty of Christ, His teachings, and how wonderful they are. Then, by example and knowledge of the true Gospel of Christ, it would be my hope that they would find their own flaws and convert to Christianity. I don’t think we need to point out flaws in others for them to realize they are wrong. When they see the light, they will follow it themselves.

I believe that you sincerely believe that. I would point out to you though the examples in the bible of Gods prophets and apostles pointing out the errors of other religions. I would also have you consider the examples set by joseph smith, brigham young and other early LDS leaders on that. you might start with JS-H and work your way forward.

I think the common thread here is that you can’t give tacit approval to what you know is wrong by overlooking it or setting a passive example.

 

[jstayii]

I believe that you sincerely believe that. I would point out to you though the examples in the bible of Gods prophets and apostles pointing out the errors of other religions. I would also have you consider the examples set by joseph smith, brigham young and other early LDS leaders on that. you might start with JS-H and work your way forward.

I think the common thread here is that you can’t give tacit approval to what you know is wrong by overlooking it or setting a passive example.

Quotes? Either way, I am not an Apostle or Prophet. Maybe if that were to happen I would have the right to speak through God in that way. Again, I don’t think it’s productive.

 

[Jerusha]

The problem with this, why me, is that many Mormons refuse to let Catholics be Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is pretty well ingrained into Mormonism.

You are a reasonably tolerant and open-minded person, but many are not.

Yes, I watched your conversation on the other board.

you can’t give tacit approval to what you know is wrong by overlooking it or setting a passive example.

There is a line between indicating approval by silence and appreciating religious freedom.

 

[why_me]

The problem with this, why me, is that many Mormons refuse to let Catholics be Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is pretty well ingrained into Mormonism.

You are a reasonably tolerant and open-minded person, but many are not.

Yes, I watched your conversation on the other board.

There is a line between indicating approval by silence and appreciating religious freedom.

Perhaps there is an old guardish kind of person who may feel something negative about the catholic church, but I have never met any anticatholicism on the internet in Mormon sites. The moderation would come down hard on such a poster.

Mormons do let catholics be catholics. They have a missionary effort but these missionaries are only explaining the lds church to those who wish to listen. If one is getting their spiritual food from the RC, that person would not be tempted to leave the catholic faith. And lets face it, it does work both ways.

Here however on this forum there are certain hard-nosed people who seem to relish using harsh words such as cult. Mormonism is not a cult.

Yes, I try to be tolerant and open minded. I am seeing some nuns for lunch tomorrow and introducing them to some catholics students at my school who wish to meet them. Anything that brings a person closer to god is fine by me.

 

[jstayii]

The problem with this, why me, is that many Mormons refuse to let Catholics be Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is pretty well ingrained into Mormonism.

I agree with this - I’ve seen it on both sides, and it’s inappropriate. Both religions teach against this - I don’t think it’s a very effective way of preaching. As a Mormon, I just reread some of the portions of “The Great Apostasy” by James E. Talmage, and realize how many opinions are strewn throughout it. He was an Apostle, and I know when speaking on behalf of the Mormon church his teachings are reflective of Christ’s, but I think a lot of Mormons read that book and turn it into a sort of anti-Catholic material against the Catholics. I have even known Mormon missionaries that give this book to Catholics to “teach them about their Church”. I think this is wrong.

I don’t see a problem in a research paper like Talmage’s being written for Mormons to help understand more about their own beliefs in an apostasy, but I don’t think that same thing needs to be pushed on their Catholic brothers and sisters. In fact, I suggest every Mormon like me go out and read lots of literature on the subjects within that book, and then try to actually learn about the Catholic faith themselves - we don’t need to have “flaws” pointed out to us from someone else. I would not consider that book the authoritative source for learning about it from a Mormon perspective anyway. We don’t need to be going out and telling the Catholics they have apostatized or don’t have the truth, like some Mormons do. IMO it’s just as bad as one of them pointing out perceived flaws in our own church - it gets us nowhere.

Personally, I get great joy just learning about the truths that remained in the early Christian church and those truths in the early days of Christ that are still supported by LDS church doctrine. Much of the first several centuries after Christ stayed pretty consistent with what we believe. Then, by learning some of the parts that do differ, I can understand mine and the Catholic church better and share my religion in a way they can understand without demeaning them. As I said above, Mormons need to realize that apostasy or not, our church would have still had to happen (per our beliefs), as there still needed to be a “Dispensation of the Fullness of Times” before the second coming of Christ.

This has mostly been a message to my LDS brothers and sisters on the board. I hope this hasn’t offended any of my Catholic family here.

 

[why_me]

I agree with this - I’ve seen it on both sides, and it’s inappropriate. Both religions teach against this - I don’t think it’s a very effective way of preaching. As a Mormon, I just reread some of the portions of “The Great Apostasy” by James E. Talmage, and realize how many opinions are strewn throughout it. He was an Apostle, and I know when speaking on behalf of the Mormon church his teachings are reflective of Christ’s, but I think a lot of Mormons read that book and turn it into a sort of anti-Catholic material against the Catholics. I have even known Mormon missionaries that give this book to Catholics to “teach them about their Church”. I think this is wrong.

This has mostly been a message to my LDS brothers and sisters on the board. I hope this hasn’t offended any of my Catholic family here.

The lds need to understand that nothing a General Authority writes is doctrine unless specified. And the book you mentioned has nothing to do with doctrine. It is just an opinion by a person who happened to be an apostle. Nothing more.

And yes, the missionaries were out of line but then again, they are mainly nineteen and enthusiastic about the gospel. A book published by a general authority may not be a reflection of christ at all. This was the problem with many lds when McConkie published his socalled Mormon Doctrine. Many lds took it as doctrine, which it wasn’t. And that made a mess of it.

 

[Jerusha]

And yes, the missionaries were out of line but then again, they are mainly nineteen and enthusiastic about the gospel.

Perhaps the LDS missionary program is an important part of the LDS PR problem. I think they alienate too many people, and set off the kind of contention you see on this board.

 

[FCEGM]

Perhaps the LDS missionary program is an important part of the LDS PR problem. I think they alienate too many people, and set off the kind of contention you see on this board.

While some people are alienated when door-to-door missionaries of whatever stripe come to the door, I doubt that is the case with most - if not all - the Catholics who engage here with the LDS participants. Any contentions arise because of the great divide re some very basic doctrinal issues and not because of nice young men on bicycles.

 

[StevenFrancis]

But I say, let mormons be mormons and catholics be catholics and learn to live together without the criticism that one can read on this forum.

I understand what you’re saying on the one hand. I do believe that communications between ALL faiths, (not just Mormon/Catholic) should be cordial and considerate. There should not be any personal attacks. But, to just let Mormons be Mormons and Catholics be Catholics, is contrary to the teachings of both the Catholic Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints. The Mormans are quite missionary in nature, as are the Catholics, (though not NEARLY enough so, in my opinion). We could learn a couple of things from Mormons.

My whole point is, as a Catholic Christian, if I am able to spread the word, to any denomination or faith tradition, I not only should, but must do my best to do that. To NOT do that would be un-charitable, and not very Christian of me. It would mean that I didn’t care for my fellow man enough to help them to the right path. I’d just allowing my brothers and sisters to sink deeper and deeper into heresy to the point where they may not be recoverable. Jesus wanted one single Church. If nothing else, at least that point is crystal clear. I have come to not only believe, but KNOW that the Catholic Church is that one Church. The more I’ve studied history, scripture, early Christians etc., the harder it is to reach any other conclusion.

I have given the rest of my life to learning and spreading God’s word. It is a sacred duty. It is not ever intended as an annoyance, and I hope that the person on the other end will always be able to discern the truth, though I know also, that this will often not be the case. I doesn’t matter. It’s what I must do. I can do no other than this. My love is too great. I have been filled to bursting with my Lord. I have more than I could possibly ever use, and therefore I must share with others to the best of my ability.

If I point out something that I have discovered to be untrue or in error in another faith tradition, I have a duty to show that towards the end goal of bringing my brothers and sisters together in true understanding. It can be done without slander or anger, but I can’t just lie, or pretend it’s not important. I will continue to challenge my Mormon friends, and family in every way. If they feel I am wrong on some point or another, then I will listen as well, and research what they are telling me. I will then respond with what I find out through that research. It can all be kept civil, for sure. But NOT to the point of avoiding confrontation altogether. The stakes are too important.

Ignoring our differences will not help anyone. We have a sacred duty to explore them together until a single truth is found that we can live with. Without fear or pride.

Sorry,

Yours in Christ,

Steven

 

[StevenFrancis]

As a newbie my knee jerk reaction was to be astonished at the ‘rudeness’, But I have learned that these folks genuinely care that Mormons are being led astray from Jesus, who is ready to accept them with open arms. I suppose when the last Mormon is baptized in THE church, Catholics will stop showing Mormons the misguided notions they believe. After all, we are actually the Church HE founded.

This is very true. Thank you. Well said.

 

[Allweather]

Perhaps the LDS missionary program is an important part of the LDS PR problem. I think they alienate too many people, and set off the kind of contention you see on this board.

I agree. Zerinus and his ilk are here only to sniff out the weak-kneed and bring 'em in to harvest. He is one salesman among many in the Mormon promotional crusade. They like to appeal to others in part by describing Mormonism as a tolerant religion, one which accepts all others as equals. Yet, in the fine print of their “modern scriptures,” we find the Great Apostasy, which is a direct affront to Christians of every type, but especially of Catholics, and all the martyrs, known and unknown, who lived out their Christian faith, some unto torturous death. This makes Mormonism, by virtue of its very existence, an insult to Christians, and one which ought not to be suffered in silence.

A few Mormons are here seeking the truth, and some find little bits and pieces of it among the arguments. We can hope that the seeds will find fertile ground in their souls.

 

[jstayii]

I agree. Zerinus and his ilk are here only to sniff out the weak-kneed and bring 'em in to harvest. He is one salesman among many in the Mormon promotional crusade. They like to appeal to others in part by describing Mormonism as a tolerant religion, one which accepts all others as equals. Yet, in the fine print of their “modern scriptures,” we find the Great Apostasy, which is a direct affront to Christians of every type, but especially of Catholics, and all the martyrs, known and unknown, who lived out their Christian faith, some unto torturous death. This makes Mormonism, by virtue of its very existence, an insult to Christians, and one which ought not to be suffered in silence.

A few Mormons are here seeking the truth, and some find little bits and pieces of it among the arguments. We can hope that the seeds will find fertile ground in their souls.

Excuse me? I am brand new to these forums, and usually avoid hanging around any religious forum of the sort that arguments like these come into place. I only came in here to answer a simple question about Mormonism and have been bombarded with lie after lie about my faith. I have yet to hear an actual doctrine of Catholic faith. Teach me what you believe. I think you’d be surprised how many Mormons would listen - would they convert? Probably not. But most of us are here with open ears, and feel there is more to learn about our own faith from your perspective on Catholic teachings. I still don’t know what Catholics actually believe.

 

[thomasf]

Excuse me? I am brand new to these forums, and usually avoid hanging around any religious forum of the sort that arguments like these come into place. I only came in here to answer a simple question about Mormonism and have been bombarded with lie after lie about my faith. I have yet to hear an actual doctrine of Catholic faith. Teach me what you believe. I think you’d be surprised how many Mormons would listen - would they convert? Probably not. But most of us are here with open ears, and feel there is more to learn about our own faith from your perspective on Catholic teachings. I still don’t know what Catholics actually believe.

You should look around the site. It is hardly hidden.

 

[majick275]

Excuse me? I am brand new to these forums, and usually avoid hanging around any religious forum of the sort that arguments like these come into place. I only came in here to answer a simple question about Mormonism and have been bombarded with lie after lie about my faith. I have yet to hear an actual doctrine of Catholic faith. Teach me what you believe. I think you’d be surprised how many Mormons would listen - would they convert? Probably not. But most of us are here with open ears, and feel there is more to learn about our own faith from your perspective on Catholic teachings. I still don’t know what Catholics actually believe.

what lies about your faith have you been bombarded with?

if you just want a quick easy basic guide to catholic beliefs you ought to try the homepage for catholic answers. there you can read some “official” answers at your own leisure with supporting references.

you can also go here:

catholic.com/library.asp

if you want a targeted search for a particular topic. If you are wanting to dig deeper please ask any questions that you might have. know that there is usually a real official answer since we have the catechism to prevent confusion from individual interpretations.

 

[Chris-WA]

I understand what you’re saying on the one hand. I do believe that communications between ALL faiths, (not just Mormon/Catholic) should be cordial and considerate. There should not be any personal attacks. But, to just let Mormons be Mormons and Catholics be Catholics, is contrary to the teachings of both the Catholic Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints. The Mormans are quite missionary in nature, as are the Catholics, (though not NEARLY enough so, in my opinion). We could learn a couple of things from Mormons.

My whole point is, as a Catholic Christian, if I am able to spread the word, to any denomination or faith tradition, I not only should, but must do my best to do that. To NOT do that would be un-charitable, and not very Christian of me. It would mean that I didn’t care for my fellow man enough to help them to the right path. I’d just allowing my brothers and sisters to sink deeper and deeper into heresy to the point where they may not be recoverable. Jesus wanted one single Church. If nothing else, at least that point is crystal clear. I have come to not only believe, but KNOW that the Catholic Church is that one Church. The more I’ve studied history, scripture, early Christians etc., the harder it is to reach any other conclusion.

I have given the rest of my life to learning and spreading God’s word. It is a sacred duty. It is not ever intended as an annoyance, and I hope that the person on the other end will always be able to discern the truth, though I know also, that this will often not be the case. I doesn’t matter. It’s what I must do. I can do no other than this. My love is too great. I have been filled to bursting with my Lord. I have more than I could possibly ever use, and therefore I must share with others to the best of my ability.

If I point out something that I have discovered to be untrue or in error in another faith tradition, I have a duty to show that towards the end goal of bringing my brothers and sisters together in true understanding. It can be done without slander or anger, but I can’t just lie, or pretend it’s not important. I will continue to challenge my Mormon friends, and family in every way. If they feel I am wrong on some point or another, then I will listen as well, and research what they are telling me. I will then respond with what I find out through that research. It can all be kept civil, for sure. But NOT to the point of avoiding confrontation altogether. The stakes are too important.

Ignoring our differences will not help anyone. We have a sacred duty to explore them together until a single truth is found that we can live with. Without fear or pride.

Sorry,

Yours in Christ,

Steven

Very well stated. I think what you said makes perfect sense. The stakes are too high to ignore the differences. Certainly the Apostles were not afraid to correct the mistakes of others or of any heresy that occured. There are certainly many examples of this in the New Testament and in the history of the early church after the Apostles. They gave us their example and we should do the same, as long as it’s done with charity. You don’t have to be an Apostle to do so.

Now there are things I greatly admire about Mormons. Here are a few:

1. Their education programs for children and adults.
2. Their level of commitment to their church.
3. The way they actually try to live out their faith.
4. Their patriotism.
5. Their family values.

As a whole, I think they are some of the best people around. I also think they would make great Catholics and would bring a level of commitment to the the church that would get a lot of luke- warm Catholics off their duffs. So I think it necessary that we Catholics witness to them about our faith as much as they witness to us. Sadly, we as a church do not do a very good job of that, primarily I think because our adults are largely so poorly educated in the faith. That is slowly starting to change, however, with web sites like this, EWTN, Catholic radio, and a new generation of young priests who are on fire for teaching the full truths of the church.