Let's face it - we DO worship Mary

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One problem is that while Catholics make several distinctions in the degree of reverence paid to God, Mary, and the saints, Protestants don’t, and as a result, the Protestant idea of “worship” can seem somewhat flattened out and in fact reduced in intensity as applied to God.

It sometimes seems that the honor Protestants give to God consists more of what Catholics would call “hyperdulia” than it does “latria” which is the worship owed by a creature to its Creator. Because of this flattened out concept of worship, of course it appears that we worship Mary, because the degree of honor we give to her is much the same degree of honor that they give to God himself.

JimG
 
it seems we have a semantic problem here, like when the word ‘discriminate’ is used. while it has come to have a negative sense to it, as in ‘biased without cause’ or ‘treating bad because of race or sex’, it used to be a compliment to be called discriminating. it meant something like you prefer good food to average food (or wine).
where you use a word can be significant in what thought it expresses. so, we need to accept that when in a group of catlics (who understand our thinking) we can admit to worshiping both Mom and Dad, but when we’re in discussion with an outsider (who has no clue to the linguistic nuances), we need to express that we only worship Daddy and that while we give honor to Mom, we know she isn’t His equal (just His spouse).
of course, it is extreamly important that we talk this up with those ‘outsiders’, as it will only become more confusing when Mom receives her title of co-redemtrix.
 
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headman13:
Bob, I love
Zither music
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too. I have a collection [49] of German/Austrian/Swiss Alpine music CDs with LOTS of Zither music. I love to listen to it in my shop while I carve. MOST relaxing. Wonderful to find another afficianado of Zither Music. My kids just roll their eyes.
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Err… what is Zither music? it is a form of classical music? Just curious:bounce:
 
Dan and Metal:

Read over Racer’s initial post again . . . . SLOWLY. It’ll sink in; I promise.
 
One can be correct and still not be right.
Racer X got the definitions down just right, and most Catholics I know (well, some, anyway) understand latria, dulia and hyper-dulia.
Our separated brothers and sisters, though, don’t necessarily think in those terms.
Add to that the scarcity of Marian doctrine directly in Scripture and I, for one, will still tell the evangelical who wants me to accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and be saved that we Catholics don’t worship Mary, choosing to stay on the topic of Mary and her role in the economy of salvation and not get pulled off track in a discussion of Latin or forms of English no longer in common usage.
We have such a limited amount of time and that, for me, it’s not a point worth quibbling about. No disrespect to Racer X or others who agree with the original post on this thread.

God bless
 
I will have to disagree with your statement on whether we worship Mary.When I worship the Lord it is because He is the supreme being. When I pray to Mary it is to intercede for me to the Lord. I am devoted to the Blessed Mother and she is my role model but I do not worship her. The rosary is a devotional prayer I pray. It is not unlike a novena we pray, we as Catholics have devotions to different saints as well. It does mean we worship them either.
 
Racer X:
I cringe whenever I see a discussion between a Catholic and non-Catholic in which the Catholic says, “We don’t worship Mary.” It is a silly semantics game and rightly recognized as such by non-Catholics. As a Catholic, it’s an embarrassing game for me to watch.

The worship we direct to God (latria in the technical term) and that to saints (dulia) are certainly distinct. But they are both instances of worship by any ordinary definition of the word. Trying to maintain that Marian devotion is not “worship” to any Protestant acquainted with our rosaries, shrines, and Schubert’s “Ave Maria” just ruins your credibility.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Worship, Christian (bolds added by yours truly)

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
…
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
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The language you are using seems dated. In the modern sense the word worship in the above seems like it should be substituted with praise. Yes, we praise (honor) her, but not worship as the modern sense of the word means. If I am not mistaken the Catholic Encyclopedia was written in the early 1900’s. I think this change in usage could legitemately account for the confusing.
 
Dan-Man916 said:
CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.

As someone who fell away from the faith, became an evangelical protestant for 7 years and reconciled back to the RCC last year,
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:dancing: Welcome Back, Dan-Man!

Thank you for your commentary. Great points.
 
Yes, some Catholics do.

As a young girl, I patterned my life after Mary. Mary is the Arc. Mary is the gate. Mary is an intercessor. The Church is Mary.

I say the rosary often and I love and honor her, but as I’ve grown in my faith, I find myself praying directly to My Savior.

I know Catholics that pray only to Mary and I personally feel that some of them do worship her, perhaps in a way that they shouldn’t. I think they feel that they are not worthy to pray directly to God.

God Bless,
Shannin
 
When a Protestant said that when Catholics kneel before statues of saints they’re worshipping them, a Priest countered that that’s like saying a person who kneels by his bed to pray at night is worshipping his bed!
 
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SteveG:
The language you are using seems dated. In the modern sense the word worship in the above seems like it should be substituted with praise. Yes, we praise (honor) her, but not worship as the modern sense of the word means. If I am not mistaken the Catholic Encyclopedia was written in the early 1900’s. I think this change in usage could legitemately account for the confusing.
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There is a couple of problems with this. First, is it not true that if we observed the exact same devotion, honoring and prayers to an entity in a foreign religion we would without hesitation say that those people are worshipping that entity? When Protestants say we worship Mary, and we say that we don’t, that we only sing songs praising her, build statues and shrines to honor her, and pray to her, is not a Protestant correct to answer, “Exactly. That is just what we mean when we say that you worship her.”
 
Racer X:
When Protestants say we worship Mary, and we say that we don’t, that we only sing songs praising her, build statues and shrines to honor her, and pray to her, is not a Protestant correct to answer, “Exactly. That is just what we mean when we say that you worship her.”
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Whatever dictionary definition Protestants may use to define the word “worship”, what they mean when they say that Catholics “worship” Mary is that we elevate her to the level of God.

In my opinion, asserting that Marian devotion “is worship by any normal definition of the word” begs the question. Protestants do not apply accusations of “worship” to Mary using a “normal definition”. They don’t whip out their Websters and compare terms. They apply the accusation using their concept of “worship” as something due only to God.

So do Catholics. We just have better words for it. 😉

A Protestant recognizes that we can “honor” and “venerate” people who are not God. The fact that those are part of the normal definition of “worship” doesn’t seem to confuse them any.

I guess I don’t understand the point of the thread. I suppose that if you use the english language dictionary as the definition of worship, than the common terms used in Marian devotions might fall within the boundaries. But clearly “worship” (as in Divine Latriae) is not what Catholics mean when they express devotions to Mary.

So what’s the point? :hmmm:
 
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seeker63:
When a Protestant said that when Catholics kneel before statues of saints they’re worshipping them, a Priest countered that that’s like saying a person who kneels by his bed to pray at night is worshipping his bed!
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This sounds like something I read in James Cardinal Gibbons book, Faith of Our Fathers:
An English parson once remarked to a Catholic friend: “Tom, don’t you pray to images?” “We pray before them,” replied Tom; “but we have no intention of praying to them.” “Who cares for your intention,” retorted the parson. “Don’t you pray at night?” observed Tom. “Yes,” said the parson; “I pray at my bed.” “Yes, you pray to the bed-post.”
“Oh, no!” said the reverend gentleman; “I have no intention of doing that.” “Who cares,” replied Tom, “for your intention.” :rotfl:
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Gibbons also pointed out in his book that Westminster Abbey is filled with statues of famous Englishmen, but no one accuses the Anglican church of idolatry.
 
Interesting to note that the Orthodox

…venerate or honour the Mother of God but in no sense do the members of either Church (referring to R.C. church) regard her as a fourth member of the trinity nor do they assign to her the worship due to God alone. In Greek theology the distinction is clearly marked; there is a special word **lateria **reserved for the worship of God, while for the veneration of the Virgin entirely different terms are employed, duleia, hyperdulia, proskynesis.

Bishop Kallistos Ware - The Orthodox Church

And before anyone starts on the what has this to do with Catholics this all stems from Ecumenical Councils and practice before 1054!

So it really comes down to language, it changing over time and what that word means to an individual. What we as Catholics have to do is not express something so it could cause offence or be open to misinterpretation. So if a protestant asked him for an explanation don’t blankly just say that Catholics worship Mary, that’s what the Church teaches and finish with a smug smile or fold your arms, be sure to provide a full explanation of how and how it differs to worship of God!
 
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TCE:
Err… what is Zither music? it is a form of classical music? Just curious /QUOTE]
👋 The Zither is an ancient stringed instrument, related to the harp and dulcimer. It is strummed and plucked like a guitar, but usually on the lap or knees. It’s the music in the movie “The Third Man” You may have seen the “Autoharp” It’s a zither with bars that form the chords for you.
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Yes, I’ve read this in places. There is a distinction between Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia, and they all translate to worship, but the word worship is used in a different way in the Church today, and is even more differently used in protestant circles, so when you do apologetics, try to keep that out, until they’re listening to what you have to say and will believe it. If you try to explain the differences of latria, dulia, and hyperdulia all translating to worship with someone who isn’t going to believe you no matter what and believes by his life that Catholics practice idolotry, then they’re probably not going to listen to a word you say.

Vita in Christo!
 
I do not agree that it is a problem with the semantics of English per se, but only per accidens. The terms latria and dulia are indeed distinct; but modern English has reduced the concept into a single idea. This situation is one of the driving arguments for maintain Latin within the Church. Because the language is deemed, “dead” (though a good latinist would dispute such a characterization), the meanings of the words are concrete, set, unchanging, in other words.

pure worship, adoration, latria is reserved for God alone.

veneration, honour, dulia is due for the saints and most especially Our Blessed Mother.

In Christ and Our Blessed Mother,
David
 
The current understanding of worship for the vast majority of people would be the same as latria, therefore we must state that we do not worship Mary.
 
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