Let's face it - we DO worship Mary

[HSMomof3]

seeker63:

When a Protestant said that when Catholics kneel before statues of saints they’re worshipping them, a Priest countered that that’s like saying a person who kneels by his bed to pray at night is worshipping his bed!

:clapping: :clapping:

 

[Psalm45_9]

Here is an excerpt for an essay I have been writing to refute the attacks of Baptist Pastor Keith Piper. If you would like to visit the website that posts his list of error filled errors of the Roman Catholic Church the website is here: acts1711.com/romanerr1.htm and acts1711.com/romanerr2.htm. Mr. Piper’s attacks will be in bold italics; my refutations will be in regular font. All of my Biblical citations will be from the King James Bible, since Mr. Piper is a King James onlyist.

From the Refutation of “Error 18: Idolatry. This is MAKING IMAGES” by Psalm45:9

***The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: “It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them … Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped.” The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as: “An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion.” An Idolater is a devoted admirer of idols. ***

First, notice how he does not cite any of his sources? Let us now establish the many definitions of the word “worship”. I will underline the definition(s) that the Council of Trent used.

“1 worship 1: a person of importance—used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors) 2: reverence offered to a divine being or supernatural power: also: an act of expressing such reverence 3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual 4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem .” (Webster’s, 1361)

“2 worship 1: to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2: to regard with great, even extravagant respect, honor or devotion.” (Webster’s, 1361)

The following biblical citations are to show the context of the word “worship” that the council of Trent was using. When the word “worship” is used in the context of the council of Trent, it will be underlined. When it is used in the context that most people associate it with today, it will be bolded.

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?” (Joshua 5:13-14)

“Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father’s house; So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.” (Psalm 45:10-11)

“The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26)

“And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.” (Acts 10:25-26)

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” (Revelation 22:8-9)

WORK CITED

Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary

        Merriam-Webster Inc. Springfield Massachusetts U.S.A. 1983

I am slowly refuting everything that is on his list.

 

[Racer_X]

The Dead Bishop:

I prefer the terms… honor, venerate, or adore.

Interesting. I believe that “adore” is historically the word that English-speaking Catholics have reserved for the worship due to God alone. Previous generations would have said “yes, we worship Mary and the saints but we give *adoration *only to God.” Hence, Eucharistic adoration. See Adoration in the Catholic Encyclopedia for more.

So apparently the terms worship and adore have switched?

This is exactly the reason why it is best to use a “dead” language like ecclesiastical Latin for official doctrinal statements, to avoid these subtle changes in language.

In a related vein Protestants also seem to mean by “prayer” something that by definition is only done with God. Thus the very word when applied in any other context seems blasphemous to them. At least that has been my experience.

 

[ccav]

Racer X:

I cringe whenever I see a discussion between a Catholic and non-Catholic in which the Catholic says, “We don’t worship Mary.” It is a silly semantics game and rightly recognized as such by non-Catholics. As a Catholic, it’s an embarrassing game for me to watch.

The worship we direct to God (latria in the technical term) and that to saints (dulia) are certainly distinct. But they are both instances of worship by any ordinary definition of the word. Trying to maintain that Marian devotion is not “worship” to any Protestant acquainted with our rosaries, shrines, and Schubert’s “Ave Maria” just ruins your credibility.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Worship, Christian (bolds added by yours truly)

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Lat. cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
…
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

Worship the Queen Mother of my Lord Jesus? Of course I do!

Ha Ha Ha!!! Well, if you or any protestant thinks that you know what is going on in my heart and mind better than I do…well, good luck to you.

 

[misericordie]

Leo44:

Perhaps you worship Mary but I seriously doubt very many Catholics do, if any at all. Or are you just wanting to argue?

fact is: in the USA, catholics are scrupoulous regarding praying to Mary. It is as if they are afraid to pray to her, and I really cannot undersatnd that, being that Marian devotion and prayer is not only recomended as a plus by the Magisterium, but is a sign of predestination, as Saint Lous de Montfort states in his book, Treatise on the True Devotion to Mary.
Any catholic who despises Mary, never prayes to her, or waters down prayers such as the Rosary, cannot really be called a catholic, but rather a catholic/protestant.
Now, the New Catechism states: # 964 "Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death; it is made above all manifest at the hour of his passion:{ Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: “Woman, behold your son.”} In brackets, the New Catechism is quolting the Second Vatican Council’s Decree: “On The Church” (Lumen Gentium).
Hence, this is one example of what the Church officially teaches about Mary, the Mother of God.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Mary has allowed God to give her to us as our mother. To pray to Mary is to cooperate with God. God loves us, Mary loves us. Saint Paul warns us about arguments over words. When someone questions about Mary, maybe don’t even respond, simply say a Hail Mary for them. Maybe we need less talk and more prayer.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

metal1633:

Well the word “Worship” is an inadeqate word, since in ordinary usage in english it is applied to members of the House of Lords and to Magistrates. We offer Latria to God, Dulia to the Saints and Hyper-Dulia to Mary. And all three of these DIFFERANT words can only be translated “Worship”? Clearly then the english languege is inadeqate.

How about - we love Mary ?​

It has at least three things in its favour:

1. It’s true.
2. The Bible tells - Christ in the Bible tells us - to love God, and to love our neighbour: same word, same meaning, same attitude, different persons to love.
3. Protestants are familiar with the distinction, and don’t suppose that by loving one another, they are failing to love God; in fact, they are showing love of God by loving their neighbour.
4. Maybe this solution deals with the objection that the distinctions in Catholic theology are forced and artificial.

I forget the other reasons that this might be a good word to use.

No Protestant is incapable of seeing the difference between love of God, neighbour, country, inanimate objects (such as the Bible), or other good things. All are loved, none need be idols, and only one is to be loved above all else.

It would be wonderful if the misunderstanding could just vanish. ##

 

[BayCityRickL]

I don’t think Mary ever wore blue and white clothing on earth. I don’t think she prayed to herself. I don’t thnk she ever said the rosary. I don’t think Mary was a pale white European woman as is so frequently depicted. I’m not sure why we need to ask her to pray for us now and at the hour of our death – you mean she wouldn’t do it without our prayer?

I don’t worship her in any sense that I worship God.

Mary is a strong new testament figure and played a role in God’s salvation plan – but like many others – men and women – who followed God’s commands and waited on Him. She certainly is a model of that obedience.

I heard intercessions on EWTN and the Mary Queen of the Universe shrine near Orlando, as follows: That God would increase devotion to Mary, let us pray to the Lord. That is a prayer that I totally don’t understand and it kind of scares me.

I wrote the priest there to explain it, and he simply replied that my question was “interesting.”

 

[ccav]

BayCityRickL:

I’m not sure why we need to ask her to pray for us now and at the hour of our death – you mean she wouldn’t do it without our prayer?"

My wife prays for me all the time…but I still ask her to even though I know she does anyways. That’s what members of a family do. They talk one another.

 

[yves]

Racer X:

Many of you suggest that my more general sense of the word worship is somewhat archaic. The dictionary I checked is consistent with that, not listing it as explicitly archaic, but giving the more general definition second to the specifically religious one.

Language does change, and especially rapidly in recent times, usually to the effect of narrowing a definition. Case in point: molest. I still feel uncomfortable when I recall the looks given me when once I used the word in its older, more general sense.

LOL. I had to laugh at that face you put at the end! Thanks for a great thread, RacerX.

God bless.

God bless.

 

[Makerteacher]

It is my understanding that the meanings of many words shift over the years, and in particular the meaning of the word “pray” has changed in the last two centuries or so, leading to some of this flack over Catholics alledgedly “worshipping” Mary.

In polite 1650s England, for instance, a person used the word “pray” to mean “ask.” As in, “I pray you, pass me the salt.” So when Catholics said they had “prayed to Mary”, it meant simply that they had ASKED Mary for her help with something. Now, however, the word “pray” implies to Protestants a Divinity on the part of the receiver of that prayer. Catholics contintue to operate under the older meaning of the word “pray”, Protestants under the newer, and so we may be using the same word but it has vastly different implications for us both. The same is true of “worship”.

When I converted, I admit that devotion to Mary made me uncomfortable. Over the years of being a practicing and (hopefully) growing Catholic, I have come to understand the treasure that Mary is for the believer. She is THE ULTIMATE model of a Christian: utter obedience and trust.