Let's get radical about Not Judging

[Whitacre_Girl]

While there is indeed a time to judge things as right or wrong, there is a kind of judgement we should always watch out for.

Basically, I think you need to determine if you are the kind of person who is going to think the worst about someone you don’t know, or are you the kind of person who is going to assume the best about people you don’t know. What kind of person do you think Christ wants you to be?

This video kind of highlights what I am talking about!

youtube.com/watch?v=VC7uJKdrgYk

 

[mini_me640]

We shouldn’t judge the state of someone’s soul, but we can and should judge many things. It is right to judge that particular acts are sinful for example. What is wrong is if I say that someone is going to H---- because of committing those acts, or if I consider myself to be “above” others. And it seems like you are saying it’s wrong to have an opinion about morally neutral things, such as music or food. We HAVE to judge things all the time. We have to judge if it is a good idea for us to buy a new car or take a shortcut or accept a job. There is nothing wrong with this type of judgment. The judgments we need to avoid are the ones reserved for God alone which involve the souls of others.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Have you watched the video I posted previously? Morningkill and I are in total agreement on this - we are CALLED to judge, repeatedly!!! Scripture calls us to judge far more often than the same verse quoted over and over and over again - “judge not…”.

Judgement is a gift from God. Without it we have no ability to judge between good and evil.

~Liza

No, I haven’t. I’m not sure if I’ll have an hour today, but I did watch the first few minutes to get an intro.

I agreed with his first point that “judge not lest you be judged” is abused by people who live in sin. In that case, I’m telling someone else not to judge but in so doing, I’ve actually judged them as well. So there are two sides to this; the person who supposedly judged, and the person who supposedly doesn’t want to be judged because they know they are not up to par.

Maybe when I’m talking about the judgment I wish to purge in myself, I’m actually referring to a condemnation aspect of it. In other words, I can say, “adultery is a sin” but I cannot throw a stone. Jesus judged, because He told the adulteress to sin no more. He did not condemn, however. Hopefully that clarifies the context in which I mean “judging” and hopefully my saying it’s a bad thing doesn’t conflict with the message of the rest of the video.

Alan

 

[E.E.N.S]

While there is indeed a time to judge things as right or wrong, there is a kind of judgement we should always watch out for.

Basically, I think you need to determine if you are the kind of person who is going to think the worst about someone you don’t know, or are you the kind of person who is going to assume the best about people you don’t know. What kind of person do you think Christ wants you to be?

This video kind of highlights what I am talking about!

youtube.com/watch?v=VC7uJKdrgYk

Judging =/= Pre-judging

 

[Sirach2]

Have you watched the video I posted previously? Morningkill and I are in total agreement on this - we are CALLED to judge, repeatedly!!! Scripture calls us to judge far more often than the same verse quoted over and over and over again - “judge not…”.

Usually when someone suggests a movie, a book, a video or anything that requires at least an hour of one’s time to view, they should have the courtesy to give a review or synopsis, cilting points that touched the one giving the recommendation. With the strong language of !!!'s, it seems to me that we’re apt to find something of a put-down in response to Alan’s post.

Terminology can be misunderstood, as so often happens on these fora.

I’m understanding Alan to mean “NOT judging” as refusal to cast blame or guilt towards others who hold different ideas/opinions/truths than one’s own – whether that is simply a mental reservation or manifests itself in a verbal demeaning of the person. The only criteria is the judge’s own perception of being “right” and certainty the other is wrong/stupid/evil, etc.

Supervisors, parents, teachers, or any who are responsible by vocation or office for the care of those in their charge would be negligent if they failed to judge their actions and discipline inappropriate behavior. That’s not the concept I believe Alan meant.

If Lizaanne and Morningkill are referring to judging as “decision making” – then sure, we all do it daily. But that is taking Alan’s meaning to a level he did not intend in this thread, and being rather “judgmental” of his efforts to help us “get radical” about the wrong kind of judging.

 

[lizaanne]

Usually when someone suggests a movie, a book, a video or anything that requires at least an hour of one’s time to view, they should have the courtesy to give a review or synopsis, cilting points that touched the one giving the recommendation.

How about you at least open the link to see the synopsis before you start making assumptions on my intent. Why in the world would I retype something just because someone is too lazy to click a link?

With the strong language of !!!'s, it seems to me that we’re apt to find something of a put-down in response to Alan’s post.

Your rudeness knows no bounds.

~Liza

 

[Sirach2]

Liza,

Isn’t this the kind of judgment Alan was speaking about? Judging my motives? Not knowing my intent? Calling me “lazy?”

Why on earth would you expect or demand that anyone spend a solid hour of their time without at least a preview wriltten in your post? Not only that, but when anyone puts a demand on me with shouting * and !!!'s], it tells me uh-uh.*

 

[lizaanne]

Liza,

Isn’t this the kind of judgment Alan was speaking about? Judging my motives? Not knowing my intent?

Why on earth would you expect or demand that anyone spend a solid hour of their time without at least a preview wriltten in your post? Not only that, but when anyone puts a demand on me with shouting * and !!!'s], it tells me uh-uh.*

Your loss. If you can’t even click on a link then that speaks volumes about your intent to participate in this discussion. The written preview is there - I’m not retyping because you can’t click on a link.

I expect someone to spend an hour if it means something to them. If it’s not important, then they won’t. No skin off my back, their loss.


~Liza

 

[estesbob]

So if someone comes to CAF and states that the Church is wrong on their teachings on , for instance. homosexual behavior and abortion we are to reamin silent?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Judging =/= Pre-judging

But wouldn’t prejudging become judgment if one sticks to it? My post was rather lighthearted in nature (hence the funny examples) but the meaning can be derived and applied to serious situations. Like people leaving mass to answer phones (maybe they have a sick loved one in the hospital?), a man and woman living together (may be only friends with no interest in one another), or even two women holding hands in public (are they affectionate best friends or engaged in a sinful lifestyle?). I see it here on CAF all the time: person x posts something. Person y interprets the post, makes a judgement, then focuses on that judgment in their response. Person x corrects the judgement. Person Y just shouts “you’re in denial!” or other various responses.

Prejudgement (or prejudice) is not the same as judgement, but it is a part. Just as warming up a grill isn’t making a hamburger, but it is a vital part.

 

[DBT]

We judge what we can see . . . not what we can’t. So we judge actions . . . but we shouldn’t judge hearts. I think Alan’s point is that far to often when doing the former . . . we end up doing the latter. What he calls the “condemnation aspect” of it. IMO, we end up in this situation by baptizing our personal opinions as Gospel. Is it any wonder that one of the great spiritual battles mystical writers like St. John of the Cross describe in the active night of spirit is freeing oneself from the hold of our personal opinions and preferences which far to often only leads to our downfall through the making of the “wrong” type of judgments.

So I think what Alan is getting at is making “right use” of judgment . . . to build people up, rather than tear them down . . . to be “son’s of encouragement” . . . to be peacmakers . . . to be fishers of men; not hunters.

Radical concepts, indeed

Dave

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

We judge what we can see . . . not what we can’t. So we judge actions . . . but we shouldn’t judge hearts. I think Alan’s point is that far to often when doing the former . . . we end up doing the latter. What he calls the “condemnation aspect” of it. IMO, we end up in this situation by baptizing our personal opinions as Gospel. Is it any wonder that one of the great spiritual battles mystical writers like St. John of the Cross describe in the active night of spirit is freeing one’s self of the hold of our personal opinions and preferences which far to often lead to our downfall by making the “wrong” type of judgments.

So I think what Alan is getting at is making “right use” of judgment . . . to build people up, rather than tear them down . . . to be “son’s of encouragement” . . . to be peacmakers . . . to be fishers of men; not hunters.

Radical concepts, indeed

Dave

:clapping:

 

[ncjohn]

This is a fantastic show on this very topic - I wonder how you all feel about this:

The One True Faith - Judgementalism

~Liza

I think he makes some very valid points about ‘right judgment’. But overall the tone is one of basically stereotyping anyone who reminds anyone about making judgments as being someone living in darkness, and thereby accusing anyone who brings up the subject as being some kind of liberal that is ok to write off. It comes off as absolving anyone who thinks they are living “the Truth” as being immune to judging wrongly.

The fact of the matter is that many of the people to whom those loving admonishments are made about not judging, and who are writing off the person making them as one of those liberals living in sin, are themselves living in sin and not liking that it is being pointed out to them, the sin often being wrong or undeserved judgment.

In the end the tone of the presentation, to me, would result more in people making wrong judgments having a way to blow off having that pointed out to them than anything else. Having been judged wrongly plenty of times around here, and then having it thrown back in my face when I bring that up, I know that it is as likely to be abused by one side as the other and that neither “side” is secure from wrong judgment. What I have personally found though is that the more self-righteous one seems to be the more likely they are to feel very comfortable in making judgments without either proper analysis or any contrition if they are found to be in error. The constant references to “those people”, as if there are any of us without sin and totally at the mercy of God, just really smacked of scapegoating to blow off our own inadequacies on someone else.

I don’t fault the message overall but the presentation of it made me very queasy.

 

[rapunzel77]

We judge what we can see . . . not what we can’t. So we judge actions . . . but we shouldn’t judge hearts. I think Alan’s point is that far to often when doing the former . . . we end up doing the latter. What he calls the “condemnation aspect” of it. IMO, we end up in this situation by baptizing our personal opinions as Gospel. Is it any wonder that one of the great spiritual battles mystical writers like St. John of the Cross describe in the active night of spirit is freeing oneself from the hold of our personal opinions and preferences which far to often only leads to our downfall through the making of the “wrong” type of judgments.

So I think what Alan is getting at is making “right use” of judgment . . . to build people up, rather than tear them down . . . to be “son’s of encouragement” . . . to be peacmakers . . . to be fishers of men; not hunters.

Radical concepts, indeed

Dave

Dave, this is what I have been striving to do for a while now. I realize that we will be able to reach out to others more if we are peacemakers and encouragers. we need to show love to each other and those that need help. I talk with several people who are struggling with depression, etc. Sure, they are not Catholics. Some don’t even think there is a God but I try my best to be a friend. Judging people’s motives is not right. Only God will judge that. I think that we need to make right use of judgment instead of just telling someone that they are going to hell, etc. Christians have a tendency to do that. We are called to love. It is ultimately the Holy Spirit that will convict them. All we can do is be good examples and show love to others. Who would want to be in a Church in which many of the people judge you the moment you step in?

Love is needed so much today. There are so many lonely people out there. They are screwing their lives up with drugs, promiscuity, etc. Many of them don’t know they are doing something wrong. Others do but they don’t know how to get out of it. I choose to love and to listen and to pray. That is all anyone can do.

 

[cmscms]

I see your point. It seems to me that you can have a preference for one over the other, and it not really be judging. This may require further examination; where is the dividing line between having a preference and judging?

Could it be in the way it is worded? So yes, I can say I would prefer not to have her as a boss. I just can’t say she’d be a bad boss? Hmmmm…

Thanks for seeing my point. And yes I agree with the wording. She might have other qualities that are rare to find in a boss and someone else might love reporting to her and be willing to over look her flaws

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Thanks again, all, for the spirited discussion! First, I see no “bad” posts; it’s all good. Of course “it’s all good” is a judgment so I suppose more carefully stated it’s, “it’s all good for me.” That’s still a judgment, but at least it admits to being subjective.

I enjoy all the different directions we’ve taken this; I think I’ve learned a couple of angles I hadn’t thought of.

I’m understanding Alan to mean “NOT judging” as refusal to cast blame or guilt towards others who hold different ideas/opinions/truths than one’s own – whether that is simply a mental reservation or manifests itself in a verbal demeaning of the person. The only criteria is the judge’s own perception of being “right” and certainty the other is wrong/stupid/evil, etc.

That is the most obvious form of the type of judgment I meant. Actually I do have thoughts about very subtle judgment such as judging something as good or bad that is really a preference – like a painting, or like a situation. I haven’t gotten into that yet; first I’ll try to respond to some of the other posts.

Supervisors, parents, teachers, or any who are responsible by vocation or office for the care of those in their charge would be negligent if they failed to judge their actions and discipline inappropriate behavior. That’s not the concept I believe Alan meant.

No, in this case these people are being paid to make judgment calls. That said, I think the way these people go about their business is one of most important reasons we’re all messed up and judge each other wrongly to begin with. I’ll hope to get more into that later, on this thread or another.

If Lizaanne and Morningkill are referring to judging as “decision making” – then sure, we all do it daily. But that is taking Alan’s meaning to a level he did not intend in this thread, and being rather “judgmental” of his efforts to help us “get radical” about the wrong kind of judging.

Thank you for the support. No, at least at first I was talking about the other kind of judgment as you said. However, I would like to examine the relationship between decision making and judgment.

Now that I think about it, maybe this is a better way to describe what I meant … I’m thinking of judgment in all the ways I can think of that doing so could mess up your spirit. I think elements of that can be present within most of the forms we’ve described, even if extremely subtle. As I alluded to earlier, I’ve been in a bit of a dark night experiencing what I believe to be purgative contemplation and it is really a hoot! Some of the twisted logic I get in “thought attacks” are really amazing. I’ve found out evil motives I hadn’t even thought of before. The real hope for this discussion is so that we could all identify some of these areas and come against them in our minds and hearts and ask God to purge us of it. Friends, I can’t help but blabber how good the Lord has been to me. I was insane for almost 10 years and He fixed me. Most of my problem, I believe, was due to socialization and part of it was about how I judged things.

So there. That’s about the deepest motive I can drag out so far, for having started this post. Really, I’m excited about life and I believe so many others here either are too or are incredibly close – like a sneeze away from the Kingdom. So my ultimate motive was to spread the Good News and help grow the Kingdom of God and help cultivate the seeds He’s planted in us and each other. OK, now I’m feeling accused of having the real motive that I want to show off and talk like I’m all super spiritual or something. Watch, as soon as I post it I’ll have discovered yet another more nefarious motive…

Is there no end? (I hope not )

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So if someone comes to CAF and states that the Church is wrong on their teachings on , for instance. homosexual behavior and abortion we are to reamin silent?

In that case, it sounds like somebody has judged the Church. I think if they make wrong statements about the way Catholics believe, then we are to correct them when faced with a chance. If they know what we teach and disagree, then since they have judged I am concerned about their souls. I would ask them to help me understand their position, maybe saying something like, “that’s an interesting viewpoint. I don’t share it, but please tell me more about how you feel and why.” Then I would go about drawing them out to find out if they have some sort of hurt I can minister to.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

But wouldn’t prejudging become judgment if one sticks to it? My post was rather lighthearted in nature (hence the funny examples) but the meaning can be derived and applied to serious situations. Like people leaving mass to answer phones (maybe they have a sick loved one in the hospital?), a man and woman living together (may be only friends with no interest in one another), or even two women holding hands in public (are they affectionate best friends or engaged in a sinful lifestyle?). I see it here on CAF all the time: person x posts something. Person y interprets the post, makes a judgement, then focuses on that judgment in their response. Person x corrects the judgement. Person Y just shouts “you’re in denial!” or other various responses.

Prejudgement (or prejudice) is not the same as judgement, but it is a part. Just as warming up a grill isn’t making a hamburger, but it is a vital part.

I think prejudgment is tricky, but revealing. If we truly were to “believe the best” like one poster talked about, then our knee-jerk reflexes might not take us in that direction. It’s revealing because it does test our emotional reflexes to see what picture we imagine when we’ve only seen a part of it.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So I think what Alan is getting at is making “right use” of judgment . . . to build people up, rather than tear them down . . . to be “son’s of encouragement” . . . to be peacmakers . . . to be fishers of men; not hunters.

Radical concepts, indeed

Dave

Dave, you give me a lot of credit. I haven’t really thought about it in these terms. Thanks for the great idea! Why not take satan’s tools and turn them against him? Do you have any examples in mind?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I don’t fault the message overall but the presentation of it made me very queasy.

That’s a bit what I thought of the first few minutes. I judged they were a little too glib about their generalizations. Anyway I still plan to watch the rest of it, because they just might have some good points to make.

Alan