Let's get some new stats on birth control usage

[lifeisbeautiful]

This is exactly what I mean. Even if having an additional child is the very last thing you’d ever want to do, if you don’t try for a 5th child you are are not trusting God enough, you are a bad Catholic, you don’t understand spirituality, you are rejecting a blessing, you aren’t open to life, you aren’t submitting to his will, you’re abusing free will, you’re rejecting the Church’s guidance, you’re doing a diservice to society and your marriage, you’re rejecting the cross Jesus said to pick up daily, etc.

I fully understand and agree with what you’re saying, but in the end it means that yes, a woman is forced to have child after child if she does not have a good enough reason not to. If she doesn’t, she is abusing NFP and rejecting the teachings of the Church and therefore risking her mortal soul. Is that not right?

I’m sorry if it sounded accusatory, that wasn’t my intention, I was trying to talk in general since the Church gives us the Truths, but we don’t know what is in each person’s soul to know what they are or are not doing, what they know or do not know, etc.

About being forced, well, I don’t feel like I am being forced by the Church to do anything. I felt called to and chose marriage. I am learning about marriage and about God’s design for marriage, and am trying to follow it. Sure, if I went with my whims and did whatever I wanted to do regardless of His plan, I might not have any kids, but I am so thankful God’s plan for me did include my children, because they are awesome lol . God’s plan for some marriages may not include children, for example, we have some dear friends who have had to bear the cross of infertility, and while they are aware of the immoral ways (ways against God’s will) to have biological children of their own, they choose not to go that way because they know it is God’s plan for them, they don’t complain about being forced to remain without biological children, even though it very tough for them. Our main goal on Earth is to follow God’s will, love Him as best we can, so we can be with Him eternally, which is what He wants. We are not forced to do this, we have free will, and unfortunately I know that I, as a sinner, may often use my free will to make bad choices, but in the end we need to try to use our free will to get us closer to Him, strive for sainthood.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I only have one child right now and although my husband and I would gladly welcome 5 or more kids, not everyone loves kids and parenthood like we do. I understand all the reasons behind the requirement to keep having kids unless you have a good enough reason not to, but I feel sorry for the women who are happy with a certain number but to stay good with the Church, they need to have more. There’s nothing anyone can really do about it, though it makes me feel better to talk about things that bother me even when there is no solution.

Not “good” reason…“just” reason.

Again what would be an “unjust” reason for a family of four to avoid?

There are lots of just reasons, economic, health, family unity, psychological etc.

Each family needs to analyze them.

By the time they get to 4 children, (all while being faithful Catholics which is important), I think God helps them decide "just’ cause.

If we try our best to be faithfyl God does help (even in the decision phase).

 

[Calliso]

I often see comments about having another child for frustrated NFP users but I don’t see how it would help a couple who has to abstain.

In my situation it wouldn’t make much of a difference in the abstinence department at all as I would be first helping my wife through her pregnancy and then helping with an infant and then right back to being frustrated with NFP. Same amount of abstinence except with another child. Which would be nice, don’t get me wrong, but not much help with dealing with abstinence.

To me they are separate issues: whether or not to welcome another child and how to deal with a sexless marriage.

Yep good point just saying hey lets have another kid isn;t going to really help the couple struggling with abstinence. I mean sure before they get pregnant again maybe…But once the pregnancy happens and on to the baby being born and afterwards guess what back to abstaining! And if for instance they are a couple that maybe doesn;t completely abstain but is using a super conservative form of NFP that allows them almost no time for sex as it is. Well adding yet another baby is likely just going to make that problem worse! Heck regardless of what method you use or even if you use artificial methods in most cases more kids is going ultimately mean less time for sex. So yeah just saying hey if you donlt want to abstain just have mroe kids doesn;t really work in the end.

 

[Sullibe]

I only have one child right now and although my husband and I would gladly welcome 5 or more kids, not everyone loves kids and parenthood like we do. I understand all the reasons behind the requirement to keep having kids unless you have a good enough reason not to, but I feel sorry for the women who are happy with a certain number but to stay good with the Church, they need to have more. There’s nothing anyone can really do about it, though it makes me feel better to talk about things that bother me even when there is no solution.

I could be wrong, but I think what Charlotte is getting at is that anyone who comes to the realization that they don’t have just reasons to avoid pregnancy but they simply don’t want any more children, has no choice but to accept more children.

And well, yes, that’s absolutely right. And it’s part of what we as Catholic’s sign up for when we get married. There’s a part in the ceremony where we’re asked if we will be open to life - it didn’t mean “until we simply don’t want anymore.”

That fact of the matter is, and I may get completely stoned for this but, prior to getting married if you can EVER imagine a time when you may find yourself fully capable of taking care of another child (i.e. no “just reason to avoid;” but simply don’t want one, then you probably should reevaluate getting married to begin with. Just reasons for avoiding pregnancy aside, ultimately, it’s not about what YOU (the royal “you” here, no one specific) or your spouse want, it’s about what God is calling you to do and asking of you.

That’s part of the reason, I believe, behind the the idea that every couple practicing NFP has to reevaluate every month, and in reality, every time they want to “get cozy”, and prayerfully discern “What is God is asking of us this time?”

 

[Sullibe]

Well adding yet another baby is likely just going to make that problem worse! Heck regardless of what method you use or even if you use artificial methods in most cases more kids is going ultimately mean less time for sex. So yeah just saying hey if you donlt want to abstain just have mroe kids doesn;t really work in the end.

I don’t know about anybody else, I admit this maybe unusual, but I have 4 children and one due in Sept - we have more sex now, than we did after the first one, come to think of it even before the first one . And, no, we don’t pencil it in.

 

[happymommy]

I could be wrong, but I think what Charlotte is getting at is that anyone who comes to the realization that they don’t have just reasons to avoid pregnancy but they simply don’t want any more children, has no choice but to accept more children.

And well, yes, that’s absolutely right. And it’s part of what we as Catholic’s sign up for when we get married. There’s a part in the ceremony where we’re asked if we will be open to life - it didn’t mean “until we simply don’t want anymore.”

That fact of the matter is, and I may get completely stoned for this but, prior to getting married if you can EVER imagine a time when you may find yourself fully capable of taking care of another child (i.e. no “just reason to avoid;” but simply don’t want one, then you probably should reevaluate getting married to begin with. Just reasons for avoiding pregnancy aside, ultimately, it’s not about what YOU (the royal “you” here, no one specific) or your spouse want, it’s about what God is calling you to do and asking of you.

That’s part of the reason, I believe, behind the the idea that every couple practicing NFP has to reevaluate every month, and in reality, every time they want to “get cozy”, and prayerfully discern “What is God is asking of us this time?”

 

[KostyaJMJ]

No, I think Charlotte was just saying (correct me if I am wrong Charlotte ) that if a couple is content with 4 kids, regardless if they found abstinence difficult or easy, if they just want 4 kids, do they have to be open to more (as in not avoid) just because they do not have just reasons to avoid?

Ah, ok I see. sorry.

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that psychological reasons were just reasons. If one or both parents see another child as a burden that would be a serious psychological reason to avoid. They might need a vatican attitude adjustment but for the time being they would have reasons to avoid.

 

[happymommy]

Ah, ok I see. sorry.

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that psychological reasons were just reasons. If one or both parents see another child as a burden that would be a serious psychological reason to avoid. They might need a vatican attitude adjustment but for the time being they would have reasons to avoid.

but they would have to see if there were in fact psychological reasons and not selfish reasons. Not be able to handle another child is one thing, not wanting one because you want to take big vacations and do more things on your own is another.

 

[Calliso]

I don’t know about anybody else, I admit this maybe unusual, but I have 4 children and one due in Sept - we have more sex now, than we did after the first one, come to think of it even before the first one . And, no, we don’t pencil it in.

Ok I admit while I do believe you that is pretty surprising to me! I mean logically one would think that each kid would lead to less and less sex over time you know?

 

[happymommy]

Ok I admit while I do believe you that is pretty surprising to me! I mean logically one would think that each kid would lead to less and less sex over time you know?

Well, here’s the thing…the kids entertain each other and don’t know you have left the room for a little while…

 

[Sullibe]

but they would have to see if there were in fact psychological reasons and not selfish reasons. Not be able to handle another child is one thing, not wanting one because you want to take big vacations and do more things on your own is another.

Exactly!

It depends on the reasons why the parent considers another a child a burden. If it is a case of a parent or even both parents being a their emotional and psychological maximum, like stress and anxiety overload, then I would say that’s a fairly just reason. In some cases, being overwhelmed by another a child maybe a just reason. Some people, like myself, get overwhelmed just trying to choose a box of cereal at the grocery store. Adding another a child to the mix might tip the psych scales in a direction that could be difficult to come back from.

However, if the parent is seeing another child as a burden because: they won’t be able to afford the new boat they want, or that trip to Paris or Walt Disney World or they won’t be able to take on their new hobby of creating a new breed of AKC dog. Well those reasons are simply equating a child with materialistic desires, and they don’t satisfy the “just reasons” behind avoiding pregnancy.

 

[Sullibe]

Ok I admit while I do believe you that is pretty surprising to me! I mean logically one would think that each kid would lead to less and less sex over time you know?

Well it also helps that we have pretty strict bed times. All kids are in bed by no later than 8:30pm and are all passed out asleep by no later than 9:00pm (though usually their asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow.

The older three also appreciate the value of watching an 1 and 1/2 hour long movie while the toddler is sleeping in the middle of the day. I love weekends.

 

[Calliso]

Well, here’s the thing…the kids entertain each other and don’t know you have left the room for a little while…

LOL! I admit if I had kids I would be far to nervous to ever have sex unless they were out of the house! Especially young kids! I mean maybe when they were older and I felt I could lock the door and or I could trust that they would knock before entering well then maybe but even then!!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Exactly!

It depends on the reasons why the parent considers another a child a burden. If it is a case of a parent or even both parents being a their emotional and psychological maximum, like stress and anxiety overload, then I would say that’s a fairly just reason. In some cases, being overwhelmed by another a child maybe a just reason. Some people, like myself, get overwhelmed just trying to choose a box of cereal at the grocery store. Adding another a child to the mix might tip the psych scales in a direction that could be difficult to come back from.

However, if the parent is seeing another child as a burden because: they won’t be able to afford the new boat they want, or that trip to Paris or Walt Disney World or they won’t be able to take on their new hobby of creating a new breed of AKC dog. Well those reasons are simply equating a child with materialistic desires, and they don’t satisfy the “just reasons” behind avoiding pregnancy.

My own personal opinion is that a couple close to the Church, close to the sacraments and close to prayer wouldn’t use Disney as a reason to postpone.

Our Disney trip has been postponed for 10 years, I was thinking maybe Paris when we retire. (maybe).

 

[happymommy]

LOL! I admit if I had kids I would be far to nervous to ever have sex unless they were out of the house! Especially young kids! I mean maybe when they were older and I felt I could lock the door and or I could trust that they would knock before entering well then maybe but even then!!

That’s when having older kids is helpful, they watch the little ones for you while you go “talk” or clean your room They haven’t noticed yet that our room doesn’t get any cleaner!

Plus, kids do sleep at some point. It’s a 24/7 job, but they aren’t up that entire time!

 

[Calliso]

That’s when having older kids is helpful, they watch the little ones for you while you go “talk” or clean your room They haven’t noticed yet that our room doesn’t get any cleaner!

Plus, kids do sleep at some point. It’s a 24/7 job, but they aren’t up that entire time!

True I admit though I would still probably be too uncomfortable lol!

 

[happymommy]

True I admit though I would still probably be too uncomfortable lol!

You get over it. Really, you do because having that time with your spouse is too important to get lazy about it. If that is when you can do it, um…you do it!

 

[Sullibe]

You get over it. Really, you do because having that time with your spouse is too important to get lazy about it. If that is when you can do it, um…you do it!

Amen!

 

[Calliso]

You get over it. Really, you do because having that time with your spouse is too important to get lazy about it. If that is when you can do it, um…you do it!

True though admittingly you are talking to someone who abstains completely in her marriage, so my thoughts are probably an exception lol! Of course I suppose if I had kids that would obviously mean that I wanted to have sex enough to take the risks involved, so perhaps in that case having sex with the kids in the house really wouldn;t be that big of a deal to me…maybe lol.

 

[MomaMary8]

I don’t know about anybody else, I admit this maybe unusual, but I have 4 children and one due in Sept - we have more sex now, than we did after the first one, come to think of it even before the first one . And, no, we don’t pencil it in.

Just wait until you are expecting number 10! It gets even better!