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sacredcello
Guest
In a 2007 German Study of the Sympto-thermal Method (similar to that taught by CCL), it was shown to have a method effectiveness of 99.6% when used correctly and consistently.
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sacredcello
Guest
As NFP instructors for CCL, we tell the couples that it can be difficult at times, but that it is certainly possible, with God’s help.
Lied to by NFP promoters? Now I am wondering why DH and I spent our entire summer going through training so that we could become instructors? Oh, yes! It was so that we could lie to people. That is our purpose. :banghead:
Talk about insult to injury.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
It is so nice to hear things like that. Really glad it works in your marriage.That’s my feeling exactly, just from the other side of the fence. We have an entirely different view of it now, and it’s much more about making love than about doing something that feels good. Our marriage is much healthier as well, with fewer fights, less arguing and more time spent together in general.
I’m certain that the contraceptive mentality is the root of many sexual issues people have. When you are taught from a young age that sex and babies are not connected but an unfortunate consequnce of something that is really about fun and feeling good, that leaves a mark on the way men and women relate to one another and also how they see children. It took me a very long time to realise that.
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sacredcello
Guest
You and me both!
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GraceDK
Guest
Great post Gordon.I will probably get beaten up for this, but I asked a professor in Moral Theology the other day about what grave reasons are to avoid children, what if people simply dont feel like having more than one or two children, and they wish to explore their creativity in other areas of life.
He gave me an interesting answer saying that marriage is a vocation which we go in and consent to fully at the alter. He said married people have to always every month consider together if they can welcome another child.
Marriage is not only about saying yes to a person, but also saying yes to what marriage is, and there is a component about being generous with children within that vocation, that choice to marry and take on the marriage MINISTRY and giving everything to that ministry. So a mother might have to sacrifice some great job to have more children, and a father might have to work some boring job that pays more than his dream job to keep things going for the fanily.
Interesting he said Ministry, it made me think… It made me compare it to priests and how ther ministry also have a lot of duties which they can do happily and generously or sulking and sad…
Just a thought.
Another one is that I dont understand why people are so angry at NFP. I mean, no one is forced to use it. There are three options; leave it to God and have many children, abstain completely, or use NFP, which is a modern day privilege for the educated American Catholic.
If I sit here and complain that I its unfair that I may not have premarital sex even though I might never get married ( a tough spot) … well, that would also be rather bizarre. Would I then also get alot of people padding me on the shoulder like I see on this thread, when people accuse the Church?
But I dont get angry at my lack of sex… because premarital sex is not an issue, its not an option at all.
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Charlotte1776
Guest
You wouldn’t happen to be talking about this study, would you? njnfp.org/documents/NFPaseffectiveasthecontraceptivepill.pdf
I think a sampling of just 322 women is much, much too small a study to really be of any real value. Larger studies show lower rates. And honestly, I think the actual use rates are more important because that shows how well it works when used by real people in the real world. If the effectivenes rate for Billings is 78%, it doesn’t matter how well it works in a clinical trial - statistically, YOUR personal chance of having a baby that year are about 1 in 4.
I’m very glad you’re one of the instructors who is honest about the hardship NFP can cause, but when so many people say they feel decieved once they find out the reality of it, don’t you think maybe there needs to be a change in how it’s presented? For those concerned about “contraceptive mentality,” I’ve certainly never seen an NFP brochure or had to sit through a presentation about it that didn’t tout it as a form of birth control, and one that is supposedly more effective than all other forms of BC to boot. I think they want to lure in folks who are currently using ABC by promoting it as a better alternative because if thet told the truth about it, fence-sitters would never give it a chance.
I don’t use NFP. I abstain completely, though I still chart.
I think the frustration comes from the rock-and-a-hard-place choices. Like you said, your three options are never, ever have sex, have 12 or more kids, or put your trust in a tricky method that may not be as reliable as you need it to be if you’re serious about avoiding a pregnancy.
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Persuader
Guest
We use a combination of STM and condoms, and it has been working thus far. I really think it’s important to enjoy life, and that includes sexual relations with your partner. Just because it isn’t the right time for children, it needn’t put a constraint on your love life. I see abc as a form of deliverance in this respect.
A friend of mine, who is soon to become a priest (protestant), told me that religion has always been changing.
A friend of mine, who is soon to become a priest (protestant), told me that religion has always been changing.
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happymommy
Guest
That’s a wonderful way to look at it!
I will probably get beaten up for this, but I asked a professor in Moral Theology the other day about what grave reasons are to avoid children, what if people simply dont feel like having more than one or two children, and they wish to explore their creativity in other areas of life.
He gave me an interesting answer saying that marriage is a vocation which we go in and consent to fully at the alter. He said married people have to always every month consider together if they can welcome another child.
Marriage is not only about saying yes to a person, but also saying yes to what marriage is, and there is a component about being generous with children within that vocation, that choice to marry and take on the marriage MINISTRY and giving everything to that ministry. So a mother might have to sacrifice some great job to have more children, and a father might have to work some boring job that pays more than his dream job to keep things going for the fanily.
Interesting he said Ministry, it made me think… It made me compare it to priests and how ther ministry also have a lot of duties which they can do happily and generously or sulking and sad…
Just a thought.
I’ve said before that you can live the life you dream of WITH kids, it just takes a little longer to do it.
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happymommy
Guest
Well, sometimes when you reply I get the feeling that you think we are making it up and that no one could ever be happy with NFP. I’m probably just misreading your posts.I absolutely believe that there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with NFP, and I’m happy for them. I’m not sure why anyone would think I wouldn’t. The problem is that many of those same people accuse those who aren’t of being bad Catholics, abusive spouses, untrustful of God, selfish, and all manner of awful things. Not that you say those things, but there are way, way too many who do. It’s just adding insult to injury after being told by NFP promoters in RCIA, CCL class, etc. that it always improves marriages, never harms them. NFP seems to be the one Church teaching no one is allowed to dislike. No one gets called a selfish, hednostic, spouse abuser for struggling with the teachings about purgatory, for example.
I’ve had multiple people tell me they are thankful that I am open about my struggles with NFP because the attacks on people who don’t like it make them feel both isolated and also afraid to speak up themselves. It helps them to hear that they aren’t alone in having felt lied to by NFP promoters or having had their marriage harmed by it. Talking about it as I work towards accepting this heavy cross is both therapeutic for me and apparently for many others as well, so I suppose I’ll keep talking.
I’m glad you are open about your struggles if it helps you and others.
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sacredcello
Guest
No, I was not referring to that study, but, rather a German study that was published in 2007 which was based on a study of thousands of charts. It was a study of the STM Method, not Billings. Personally, I would not trust a mucus-only method if I was TTA. NFP instructors in my area told me that they first learned Billings and that, in their opinion, it was not as comprehensive, so that is why they switched to STM through CCL.
It is important to make a distinction between method effectiveness and user effectiveness. It is not that the latter is a more “accurate” picture of how the method actually works in real life. Not at all. It is that with the latter, it shows that couples are willing to take the risk that they may or may not conceive that cycle. That is actually the whole point of learning NFP. It gives you the knowledge, and then you, as a couple, can make a decision about how to act. The subtitle of our textbook says it all. It is called The Art of Natural Family Planning: Safe, Healthy, Effective…and it Can Change Your Hearts in Surprising Ways. By studying the fertility signs of the body, it brings about a deeper respect for how we are all fearfully and wonderfully made by God. Couples are then able to decide about marital relations based on real knowledge. That is why people who practice NFP often have larger families. Their sense of purpose in the vocation of marriage is strengthened. This is not to say that it will always be easy. There are times of abstinence, even extended abstinence, such as after a birth and during pre-menopause (although there are special classes offered by CCL for both of these that make NFP a reliable method, even during these transitions).
No. At no point in the instruction do we ever say that the method is 100% effective. But, then, there is not any method of ABC that is 100% effective either, so I don’t see where there is any deception. Both of my siblings were conceived while my parents were actively TTA by using ABC. One of my colleagues and his twin brother were conceived with an IUD in place, and they had to gestate for 9 months alongside that thing. There are lots and lots of people who have conceived while using ABC. That would be the biggest deception of all, if we were to claim that ABC is more effective or better for your marriage.
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onmyknees
Guest
Beautiful post Grace!
I will probably get beaten up for this, but I asked a professor in Moral Theology the other day about what grave reasons are to avoid children, what if people simply dont feel like having more than one or two children, and they wish to explore their creativity in other areas of life.
He gave me an interesting answer saying that marriage is a vocation which we go in and consent to fully at the alter. He said married people have to always every month consider together if they can welcome another child.
Marriage is not only about saying yes to a person, but also saying yes to what marriage is, and there is a component about being generous with children within that vocation, that choice to marry and take on the marriage MINISTRY and giving everything to that ministry. So a mother might have to sacrifice some great job to have more children, and a father might have to work some boring job that pays more than his dream job to keep things going for the fanily.
Interesting he said Ministry, it made me think… It made me compare it to priests and how ther ministry also have a lot of duties which they can do happily and generously or sulking and sad…
Just a thought.
Another one is that I dont understand why people are so angry at NFP. I mean, no one is forced to use it. There are three options; leave it to God and have many children, abstain completely, or use NFP, which is a modern day privilege for the educated American Catholic.
If I sit here and complain that I its unfair that I may not have premarital sex even though I might never get married ( a tough spot) … well, that would also be rather bizarre. Would I then also get alot of people padding me on the shoulder like I see on this thread, when people accuse the Church?
But I dont get angry at my lack of sex… because premarital sex is not an issue, its not an option at all.
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Rence
Guest
I can relate to your thoughts above. It’s hard to understand another person’s perspective when one has the opposite perspective. What might seem completely obvious to one, may be plain old BS to another person. It’s like that with everything really.
For example: Some people are angry with NFP because they don’t want to use the method and don’t like the method and are only using it because it’s the only method that the Church allows them to use. They choose to use it because they would feel guilty if they used something else. Sure, they’ve made their decision to use it, but they take it as a burden, even though it’s something they have freely chosen…becucause they really haven’t “freely” choosen it. They don’t agree with the Church’s teaching, but reluctantly (and bitterly) follow it because they have chosen to follow the rules of the Church, even though they don’t agree with it. They are emotionally coerced into choosing. The fact that this perceived coersion is a complete fabrication on their part is irrelevent because that’s how they feel about it. It’s real to them. It matters to them even though another person would say, “tough, that’s the way it is”. So, it’s understandible why another person (who has no problem with the rules of the Church in this matter) would say: " you know, I don’t get what your problem is!!??"
The fact is, if it’s not one’s problem, then one doesn’t understand why and how it can be another person’s problem. It’s like a job: one person gravitates to a particular job, while another person would hate it. Both don’t understand each other’s love/hate for that job because they don’t share the same feelings, but have a totally different perspective.
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Christian4life
Guest
As Catholics, we have never used birth control. We used to be protestants however, and there it was certainly not considered a sin. I have even been to Bible studies where the ladies chatted about their pill usage after prayers.
We use NFP sometimes now. My cycles are really screwy though and I ended up getting pregnant twice. Don’t regret it though!!
We use NFP sometimes now. My cycles are really screwy though and I ended up getting pregnant twice. Don’t regret it though!!
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Calliso
Guest
Well another purpose is also bonding with ones spouse.
Yes he can make it happen. But yes a consequence of sex is pregnancy. I guess I just donlt understand is the idea that if you have sex God wonlt give you a child you are not prepared for. That is where I am confused.
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onmyknees
Guest
Well yes, God may give someone a child that they are not prepared for because He knows what is best for us. Trials and suffering in this life can bring us closer to Him because we need His love to get through them.Well another purpose is also bonding with ones spouse.
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
Why not have the 5th child? God is asking us to be generous, and chidren are blessings, not random creatures that come into being, but created in the image of God, with a purpose, and an eternal soul. We have to seek God’s Will here on Earth, not trying to find happiness in wordly things, but trying to get closer to Him (which is the only way we can be filled). In the end wordly happiness can come and go, but eternal life is forever. We are not babymaking machines, but a lot of us have the vocation to marriage, and marriage is ordered towards procreation, having children, and raising them in the faith. Some marriages are not blessed with fertility, God has other plans for those marriages, while some marriages are blessed with this gift, and even though sometimes the road can be hard, it is still a gift. We have to look at the big picture, the 3rd dimension in life, supernatural life. A lot of saints went through horrible things but were still full of happiness and peace here on Earth, because they seeked to do what God wanted of them, and in trying to do it as well as they could, one day at a time, were closer and closer to Him. If we are seeking an easier life, running away from our crosses and God’s will, then yeah, we will never find happiness. Now, when we are trying to do God’s will there is no doubt things can get tough, but we need to keep trying to do what He wants of us and do our best. He gave us the Church here and through Her wisdom and guidance we can learn more about what His will for all of us is. Through the infallible techings of the Church on ABC we learn what is best for us, because doing something that will put us farther away from God is never best for us, nor for our marriage, nor for society in general. The Church helps us see what is right and wrong and gives us more freedom in having knowledge of what can help us be closer or farther from God, so we knowingly use our free will to choose what to do.
mathematoons
New member
Being prepared has nothing to do with it. God knows best. This is what you don’t seem to understand.Well another purpose is also bonding with ones spouse.
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Calliso
Guest
Yes it can bring people closer. But what about when it pushes people away. What about people who end up doubting their faith and even leaving it? I think God allows suffering and it can be something that brings us closerto him. But I donlt think God causes suffering purposely. So when a person has a child they were not prepared/ready for I donlt think it is Gods doing. I think thats just life sometimes.
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onmyknees
Guest
Well, I agree that some people will not embrace the trials and suffering and maybe even end up doubting or leaving the faith. God gives us free will to choose to leave or to remain faithful to Him. I believe that God allows everything to happen for a reason or sin can cause suffering in the world.
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Charlotte1776
Guest
This is exactly what I mean. Even if having an additional child is the very last thing you’d ever want to do, if you don’t try for a 5th child you are are not trusting God enough, you are a bad Catholic, you don’t understand spirituality, you are rejecting a blessing, you aren’t open to life, you aren’t submitting to his will, you’re abusing free will, you’re rejecting the Church’s guidance, you’re doing a diservice to society and your marriage, you’re rejecting the cross Jesus said to pick up daily, etc.
I fully understand and agree with what you’re saying, but in the end it means that yes, a woman is forced to have child after child if she does not have a good enough reason not to. If she doesn’t, she is abusing NFP and rejecting the teachings of the Church and therefore risking her mortal soul. Is that not right?
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