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mdrummer5
Guest
Thanks for the clarification Dorothy, I was also not sure what you meant as your response was somewhat vague… but you knew what you meant
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Dorothy
Guest
I must learn to be more clear.Thanks for the clarification Dorothy, I was also not sure what you meant as your response was somewhat vague… but you knew what you meant
Peace,
Dorothy
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mgreen77
Guest
The catch is people often push back when pushed. I’d wonder if then we’d see pagans casting spells in christian bookshops?
In any case, it’d probably just cause resentment since it’s sort of invading their space, their home in a way, even if the intentions are well-meant.
J
joandarc2008
Guest
To the poster that said she has a friend who was involved in the Pagan handfasting. OK, I will give you there are some Wiccans who are of the belief that they are doing “white magic” with their spells. Couple issues:
- Where is their power coming from - nature has no power - if you believe nature is giving you that power you are believing in more than one divine-like entity by definition - if they are not Heaven - what exactly are you calling on?
- In the hands of a bad mentor - (my husband was a closet necromancer who preyed on some nice Wiccans - he also posed as a nice Catholic in the community too) - some of the entities they call on that they think are good names - are other names for Satan -
- don’t have to get into all the idol worshipping
- handfasting is not by definition life-long - it is only lifelong if the couple chooses and Wicca believes divorce is a better option then being unhappy in marriage as it destroys the spirit of the other.
C
cyberwolf001
Guest
There are many definitions for the word idol. When thing you’ll learn is we Pagans don’t tend to give a flip about the definition Christians use. After all why let another faith dictate ours?
One definition of idol is “A man-made object that is venerated for the deity, spirit or daemon that it embodies or represents.”
An one definition of embody is “To provide a spirit with a physical form”
We are on the verge of a lot of massive metaphysics here. An I’ll be the first to say many Pagans are functionally atheists and are what C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape called “Materialist Magicians.”
Community is an issue for me as well thankfully in my area we have finally established a Proto-Grove of ADF. Think of a Missionary Chapel to give you a rough idea.
Good on you friend. For me it was a contradictory mess out of which I only got hate, anger, dispair and a lot of insults. At most I was told ask God to change me so I liked the hate, anger, despair and insults.And I love the CC and the local community
Also a good many cases of Christians in jail for trespassing and lawsuits. But this would feed the need for persecution amongst some Christians I know.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
I didn’t mean at all that you should accept the Catholic/Christian definition of idol at all, I was discussing the issue of “worshipping idols” from the Catholic viewpoint however. I am not one to suggest Pagans should let another faith dictate theirs - I have, on several occasions, defended paganism from stereotypes discussed on this thread and others based on that very principle (the typical “devil-worshippers” lie). However, as this is a Catholic forum, your faith will be very much discussed from that viewpoint.
That’s good. I did look for communities near me but there was none, and if there was they were very close and didn’t really respond to people regarding new members. The complete opposite to the CC, which welcomed me with open arms. Not to suggest that that is the norm (not at all, I have known some Catholics who start from the assumption that you already cannot be saved and some Pagans who are the most open-armed people in the world).
Thank you. I’m sorry to hear about that, its not the face of the CC that I have seen. My only difficulty with it is regarding what it teaches about contraception and theology of the body, but those are issues that I am working through and considering. What do you mean by anger, despair and insults?
Need for persecution? Are you suggesting some Christians want to be persecuted?
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kenofken
Guest
To your last point, yes. It’s not so much a matter of Christians “wanting” to be persecuted, but in recent times, American Christians at least have come to define themselves primarily through a persecution narrative. Changing demographic realities mean that Christianity, and in many areas, Catholicism are no longer treated with unquestioning deference in the public sphere. The simple act of having to share that sphere with others of us is construed in many quarters as “persecution.” Anytime a court or legislatures forces a church (or the Church) to comply with some law of the land it doesn’t like, that’s persecution, we’re told. Anytime someone in pop culture takes a real or perceived swipe at Christianity, that’s persecution. At least here in the states, there are people and entire organizations dedicated to crying persecution at these things. It used to be that persecution meant going to the lions etc. But in recent times, there is no middle ground. For many Christians, there is only two modes: absolute cultural and legal hegemony or persecution.
I cannot speak to Cyberwolf’s experience of “anger, despair and insults,” but I can offer my own perspective. I have been 40 years in the world, about 16 of them in the Catholic Church, 20 or so as a secular man and the balance as a pagan. I have dear lifelong Catholic friends and I have seen some real gems of human beings come from that faith. That said, I must tell you that I have never come across so many vicious, spiteful and self-righteous people as I have in Catholicism and Christianity generally.
To truly get that statement in perspective, you need to know that I was a journalist for most of my adult life and had more in-person exposure to a wider cross section of society than most people. That includes lots of folks you might assume to be universally “uncharitable.”: trial lawyers, hardened cops, criminals, even hate groups which openly advocated (sometimes successfully), murder. They were difficult and sometimes dangerous people to engage, but I will tell you that none of them was so consistently uncivil to me as a group as Catholics have been.
I’m not talking about some isolated instance when I was 15 when some youth minister cheesed me off. I’m talking about the day-in-day-out treatment I receive from Catholics on the ground, here on these forums. On a daily basis, people on here say things about me and my faith that are every bit equivalent in spirit and tone to the anti-Semitic propaganda circulating around Europe circa World War II. I have had people on these forums advocate imprisonment and even death for people who practice my faith. This is not one or two rogue posters here and there. It is consistent, and it is more often than not tolerated and encouraged by all quarters of this community.
Consider, for a moment, the very premise and topic of this thread. We have someone advocating for Catholics to disrupt others’ sacred space and/or place of business because they consider their religion to be “evil.” At least two or three threads of this nature are posted every week, and they are quite popular. If I or someone else came on here to encourage people to disrupt a Mass or a Catholic bookstore, how many seconds do you think would pass before I was banned for life and the post was removed?
Look, I get that any church is made up of flawed people. I get the whole “hospital for sinners” concept, but from where I stand, it’s increasingly difficult for me to see how any of this is informed by the Christ of the New Testament. It’s hard for me to see any value in engaging the Catholic community in any kind of debate or discussion.
I give you and a (very) few others around here credit for speaking against the ludicrous stereotypes and hate speech and focusing on legitimate theological differences.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Ken has a lot of it down. IF I ever returned to Catholicism my confessor as told me I’d be forbidden to come to this board and he does warn people away from it.
There is more and when I get some time I will give you the full run down.
There is more and when I get some time I will give you the full run down.
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mdrummer5
Guest
You mean paganist =/= satanist???
/sarcasm
I do agree that since this is a Catholic forum then obviously other faiths will be viewed from that perspective… however it seems to happen with quite a bit of ignorance in some cases (not referring to you LAL as I’ve seen some of your other posts pointing out the flaws in some people’s view of Paganism).
I’ve been fortunate enough to come in contact with many people of many different faiths and have found that not only are they typically more respectful of other religions than stereotypical Christians some of them follow the basic ideals more than some people who claim to be “good Christians” in fact I would say anyone who I’ve ever heard refer to themselves as a “good Christian” is anything but.
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kildare
Guest
I’ trying to figure out what to do here.
Should we persecute the pagans?
Should we tolerate them?
Should we love them?
Actually we can substitute other types of people who are involved in unchristian actions too.
So, as Catholics we are first and foremost obliged to love God and love our neighbor. That is basically all of scripture in a nutshell as spoken by our Lord and Savior. Obedience to the Magisterium is obviously contingent on that great commandment. The Eucharist is God and Neighbor and You and is thus related to this and so is everything I guess!
But wiping out paganism could be seen as an act of mercy too.
Was this edict by the Christian Roman Emperor Theodosius the Great Merciful?
“No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. … The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword.” – Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4
You see the problem with the occult, and here I am being general, is that it is not You and Me equal before God (like the Eucharist). You see with it people are checking the future to get an advantage (sometimes indirectly and without harm meant). White Magic? Isnt it just the same as Black Magic. Why, even if it hurts no one, it is a kind of “cheating” by aligning the spiritual world with the natural world. It is anti-rational.
Buddhism and Hinduism however seem different. There is no attempt to gain “advantage” or to make yourself more powerful without the grace of God. In that sense they are not so self destructive.
However the question is, what do we Catholics do in this day and age of Moral Relativism. We don’t have a Christian Emperor on the throne who can ban it “for their own good”, but I think our responsibility in a largely democratic world is actually greater. Therefore we have to convince people against it, not only by words, but also by actions that the way of Jesus Christ is better for you me and all of us. To be honest I don’t mind so much if someone wants to call it Paganism, but if they Love God and Love their neighbor, and desist from casting spells or seeking advantage through magic then I think its alright.
But as to the “dangerous” stuff, well we are in a very free world at the moment, so we need to extra vigilant. We need to be even better Catholics than before when our Monarchs or Republics were insulating us, because now we are out in the open. This is, I feel, God’s plan anyway. The childish period of our civilization is over. Now we have to act as individuals.
Should we persecute the pagans?
Should we tolerate them?
Should we love them?
Actually we can substitute other types of people who are involved in unchristian actions too.
So, as Catholics we are first and foremost obliged to love God and love our neighbor. That is basically all of scripture in a nutshell as spoken by our Lord and Savior. Obedience to the Magisterium is obviously contingent on that great commandment. The Eucharist is God and Neighbor and You and is thus related to this and so is everything I guess!
But wiping out paganism could be seen as an act of mercy too.
Was this edict by the Christian Roman Emperor Theodosius the Great Merciful?
“No one shall consult a soothsayer, astrologer or diviner. The perverse pronouncements of augurs and seers must fall silent. … The universal curiosity about divination must be silent forever. Whosoever refuses obedience to this command shall suffer the penalty of death and be laid low by the avenging sword.” – Codex Theodosianus, IX.16.4
You see the problem with the occult, and here I am being general, is that it is not You and Me equal before God (like the Eucharist). You see with it people are checking the future to get an advantage (sometimes indirectly and without harm meant). White Magic? Isnt it just the same as Black Magic. Why, even if it hurts no one, it is a kind of “cheating” by aligning the spiritual world with the natural world. It is anti-rational.
Buddhism and Hinduism however seem different. There is no attempt to gain “advantage” or to make yourself more powerful without the grace of God. In that sense they are not so self destructive.
However the question is, what do we Catholics do in this day and age of Moral Relativism. We don’t have a Christian Emperor on the throne who can ban it “for their own good”, but I think our responsibility in a largely democratic world is actually greater. Therefore we have to convince people against it, not only by words, but also by actions that the way of Jesus Christ is better for you me and all of us. To be honest I don’t mind so much if someone wants to call it Paganism, but if they Love God and Love their neighbor, and desist from casting spells or seeking advantage through magic then I think its alright.
But as to the “dangerous” stuff, well we are in a very free world at the moment, so we need to extra vigilant. We need to be even better Catholics than before when our Monarchs or Republics were insulating us, because now we are out in the open. This is, I feel, God’s plan anyway. The childish period of our civilization is over. Now we have to act as individuals.
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mdrummer5
Guest
Is there anything more insulting than telling someone what they believe is wrong? Religion is highly subjective. It is not anyone’s place to tell someone else what they should believe.
And as far as your question…
Did Jesus not teach NOT to judge (persecute)? To love everyone (not simply tolerate)?
After years of ignoring my spirituality I’ve found something I believe in in Catholicisim… however while I have full intentions of going through RCIA and being baptised and hopefully accepted in a little over a year I also have no problem admitting that it is possible that I could be wrong
The one thing I swore to myself that I would never do when I decided to become Catholic is to try to tell other people what to believe. I’ve found a spiritual comfort in Catholic teachings that I’ve never known before. If someone gets that same feeling from Paganism who am I (or you) to tell them to give up their beliefs???
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kildare
Guest
To be sure its a horrible experience for the victim.
The “totalitarianism” of the late Christian Roman empire was probably not nice, even if the laws were never as rigidly enforced as the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century.
Yes he did, but the problem is that if I believe that someone is harming themselves (or others and if I am called to Love that person then am I not obliged to act? Perhaps a atheist Marxist might come to the same conclusion as me regarding my religion and that is part of my point.
Should we tolerate what we think is an evil? I think the answer must be no, unless our action in itself constitutes another evil. For example burning witches or forcing people against their conscience to convert.
God forbid, where my ill-chosen words to cause you to doubt the momentous decision you made. But whatever choice we make (atheist, pagan or christian) we get confronted with the same old issue of dealing with people with another belief system. My point is that the general rule of thumb is to tolerate if its harmless. Now for an atheist calling up the dead may be a harmless waste of time, while for a christian it may not be.After years of ignoring my spirituality I’ve found something I believe in in Catholicisim… however while I have full intentions of going through RCIA and being baptised and hopefully accepted in a little over a year I also have no problem admitting that it is possible that I could be wrong
I’m a cradle catholic who fell away from religion as a teen and my secular instincts are still strong so I also recoil from forcing religion down peoples throats. I want to find an acceptable way to oppose Moral relativism and treat others, including non Christians in a loving way. My instinct is not to denigrate anyone’s belief unless it is harmful.
And above all, I don’t want to drive anyone away from the faith.By all means let me know if I am out of order.
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joandarc2008
Guest
And what will you do or say to the Wicca/Pagan/.Mancer that is actively stealing the Body of Christ from your Church to use in ceremony?
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mdrummer5
Guest
I don’t doubt that you have good intentions. But it is my view that by trying to change someone that you feel is doing something evil while they see no issue with it you’re simply going to drive them away. This is where spirituality and psychology cross paths. The more you try to tell someone not to do something, the more likely they’re going to want to do it. Hold the door open and give them an opportunity to walk through it, if they do awesome, if not do NOT try to shove them through it as they are then even less likely to want to see what’s on the other side of it.
If you mean that figuratively I’m not sure I understand. However, if someone is literally stealing from the Body of Christ from any Church (which honestly I’ve never heard of happening so please elaborate) that is entirely different from someone who practices their faith without disturbing mine. That said, if someone were to steal anything from anywhere that in and of itself is a sin and regardless of what if any direct impact it has on me it is still not my place to judge that person. That’s God’s place. On top of that consider this, someone steals from your home. Part of the Lord’s prayer which I’m sure you’re familiar with (I was before I even started my current path) is “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us” so we are taught to forgive the man who would steal from our home. The Church is God’s house, do you not think he would also forgive someone stealing from his home? Do you think that while He forgives such a sinner that we, mere men and women are to judge in his place?
Frankly, I can’t imagine ever being in a position to say anything to someone who would steal from a Church. But if I were I think I would ask why they’re doing it as opposed to immediately telling them they’re wrong for doing so, I don’t know of any belief system that doesn’t consider stealing wrong or at least recognizes that most consider it so, so why point out the obvious? In order to help someone understand the error of their ways you must first understand why they do not see it as error not judge them for it. God will judge them, God will forgive them if they ask forgiveness. If they do not then it is truly up to God what becomes of them.
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kenofken
Guest
The same thing I would tell a Jew who drinks the blood of Gentile children in secret ceremonies: nothing. Because they’re both urban legends and hate propaganda without a shred of truth to them.
The fact that you think I would want to steal a Host wafer shows you don’t know the first thing about my religion or its practices. Why would I want a wafer consecrated to a god I don’t follow for use in my ceremonies when we consecrate cakes and ale to our own gods whose presence is as real then as the person standing next to me in circle?
Desecrating someone else’s ritual space or objects would mark us as dishonorable before our own gods and invites a sort of bad “karma” that chills my blood even to think about.
Do you suppose we would use a wafer in spellwork? Again, to what end? Any power drawn down into those wafers by your god and your priests has only one “use” - to create an access point between your God in the person of Christ and his followers. It’s not a generic “power” source and objects in general hold only trace amounts of what we would call power. I can raise more power with a chant, a dance and pure will than I could ever gain by “hacking” your ritual wafer.
This canard about us stealing your hosts, then, is purely a hate tactic to convince people that we are your enemy and that “measures” to deal with us are appropriate and necessary. It is a deliberate attempt to conflate my faith with that of Satanism despite glaring and obvious differences between our religions. Wicca has as much in common with Satanism as Catholicism does with Shinto or Tibetan Buddhism. Any minimal amount of scholarship would confirm that, but apologetics isn’t about scholarship or informed debate anymore. It’s about smear tactics and circular logic. We know what we know because we know it, and that’s all we need to know. Most Europeans in the 1930s had never read a book about Judaism or talked with their Jewish neighbors in any depth, but everybody “knew” what Jews “were really all about.”
The only documented theft of a host I have EVER heard of involved an atheist, PZ Myers, who drove a nail through it on a youtube video as an act of contempt for things religious.
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mdrummer5
Guest
To elaborate on my previous post since I can’t edit it now and to add to this… I assumed the statement made by joandarc2008 was rubbish but am admittedly ignorant as to the practices of a lot of religions.
That said, Joan… as I asked previously please enlighten me as to how you speak of things like this happening as though they are a regular occurrence. I would like to point out that one person (the aforementioned atheist) does not constitute a habit of behavior amonst an entire group of people no more than you’re speaking against it means that all Christians are happy to remain ignorant towards it.
I believe in God. The more I read of God and Jesus the more I get upset with myself for ignoring Christianity all these years… then I read stuff like this that reminds me of why I did. Ken and all other Pagans are absolutely entitled to their beliefs and it is not our place to judge them IF they are wrong but whether or not they are is also not our place to determine. We can believe that they are (which I won’t comment further on due to ignorance) but that doesn’t mean we can’t show respect for their spiritual freedom.
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joandarc2008
Guest
The host is the Real Body of Christ - it goes beyond stealing an item from a Church. Many (and I never said all) believe that they can use the Host for their own circles. Now, that being said I would recommend going out and reading certain books that I could steer you to - those books come with warnings - at the end. It sat in my house but was not mine for two years. I may have a bit more experience in this arena than you do. This is also why I chose to place all three terms there as not all use them appropriately. So are you not agreeing that the the host is the Real Body of Christ? Because that is a large part of this. I’m sorry I hope you never see it but I can tell you from personal experience that it does happen. It does not have to be everyone - and no, you do not have to evangelize to everyone - but when they enter your Church yes, you do have a duty to evangelize there is no room for moral relativism at that point.
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mdrummer5
Guest
I’m so glad I’ve been shown that not all Christians are this fanatical.
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kenofken
Guest
I would challenge you to produce even one Wiccan or neopagan of any established tradition who thinks it’s ok, or even useful - to steal and use a Catholic host for their circles. I cannot speculate on which books you cryptically refer to. I have a room full of pagan literature and I have never come across a reference of any kind to conducting ritual with a Catholic Host. I don’t know what arena you claim to have more experience in. It is patently obvious you have no direct experience of Wicca or paganism in any of its real and modern forms. I have researched the topic since the mid 1980s and in the past six years ago have attended and conducted ritual with many hundreds of pagans spanning virtually the entire spectrum of traditions in North America. I see these people in situations where they have no reason to parse words or keep secrets, and I have never once heard even rumors, let alone admissions, of Host-theft.
Do I accept the Host as the Real Body with all of the implications in the same way you do? No. If I did, I would be Catholic. However, I accept the fact that you and others of your faith view the Host in that manner, and as such, I understand the profound disrespect it would show to steal one for other purposes. Further, I grew up Catholic and know the story of the New Testament as well as you do. That being the case, I know that the Host, even if it is the Body of Christ (no, ESPECIALLY IF), is not some generic power artifact that can be hijacked and put to some other purpose.
Stealing your Host would be as utterly pointless as you stealing my runestones with the idea that you could magickally free someone from purgatory or call Christ’s power down on someone in the form of a lightning strike. From a metaphysical standpoint, there is simply no sense whatsoever in stealing a host, and any pagan worth their salt understands that.
To your last point, if someone enters your church, of course you’re free to try to evangelize them, and of course to prevent them from inappropriate reception or use of your sacrament. But unless you can produce some independently verifiable evidence to the contrary, the notion that Host theft is a a widespread phenomenon, is, well, bunk. The only instances I’ve seen are the Myers incident, another case where a Canadian politician apparently pocketed the host out of ignorance, and I think one other case where a mentally ill man spit out a host in the reception line (and got a flogging for his trouble). To suggest that Wiccans and pagans endorse or practice this behavior is no different than the blood libel heaped upon Jews since the middle ages, and it is done with the same intent.
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mdrummer5
Guest
Yea… I kind of assumed that given the extreme lack of supporting evidence present in joan’s point it just boggles my mind that people hear of one or two isolated incidents and jump to certain conclusions. It’s no different than “hey a black guy broke into a liqour store and stole all the money, most black guys obviously steal”.
This shows an insane amount of fear in things that are different.
Fear > anger > hate > suffering >>> DARK SIDE OMG!!!
Edit: OOOOOH that’s what I should start a thread on next in the “other religions” forum… people that follow “the force” as a religion!!!
This shows an insane amount of fear in things that are different.
Fear > anger > hate > suffering >>> DARK SIDE OMG!!!
Edit: OOOOOH that’s what I should start a thread on next in the “other religions” forum… people that follow “the force” as a religion!!!
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