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mdrummer5
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I’m shocked that you think such things would be said here 
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J
joandarc2008
Guest
We have spoken of this before - and I believe you forget -it is the ones that call themselves these things that represent these things - and no I just made it very clear my experience is not direct it comes from having someone else who was practicing the occult whatever genre you want to call it in the home. Now do I believe you are a bad person or that you would do these - No. Do I believe there are those that do - yes because I have seen it. Please go back and read all my posts and you will notice that I mentioned three classes - that third class has no problem mixing themselves in with good folks like you and not caring about the image issue they leave you with. Remember when we take Eucharist we also become part of a spiritual communion - it is not just a consumption like some in the pure occult necromantic practices would believe.I would challenge you to produce even one Wiccan or neopagan of any established tradition who thinks it’s ok, or even useful - to steal and use a Catholic host for their circles. I cannot speculate on which books you cryptically refer to. I have a room full of pagan literature and I have never come across a reference of any kind to conducting ritual with a Catholic Host. I don’t know what arena you claim to have more experience in. It is patently obvious you have no direct experience of Wicca or paganism in any of its real and modern forms. I have researched the topic since the mid 1980s and in the past six years ago have attended and conducted ritual with many hundreds of pagans spanning virtually the entire spectrum of traditions in North America. I see these people in situations where they have no reason to parse words or keep secrets, and I have never once heard even rumors, let alone admissions, of Host-theft.
Do I accept the Host as the Real Body with all of the implications in the same way you do? No. If I did, I would be Catholic. However, I accept the fact that you and others of your faith view the Host in that manner, and as such, I understand the profound disrespect it would show to steal one for other purposes. Further, I grew up Catholic and know the story of the New Testament as well as you do. That being the case, I know that the Host, even if it is the Body of Christ (no, ESPECIALLY IF), is not some generic power artifact that can be hijacked and put to some other purpose.
Stealing your Host would be as utterly pointless as you stealing my runestones with the idea that you could magickally free someone from purgatory or call Christ’s power down on someone in the form of a lightning strike. From a metaphysical standpoint, there is simply no sense whatsoever in stealing a host, and any pagan worth their salt understands that.
To your last point, if someone enters your church, of course you’re free to try to evangelize them, and of course to prevent them from inappropriate reception or use of your sacrament. But unless you can produce some independently verifiable evidence to the contrary, the notion that Host theft is a a widespread phenomenon, is, well, bunk. The only instances I’ve seen are the Myers incident, another case where a Canadian politician apparently pocketed the host out of ignorance, and I think one other case where a mentally ill man spit out a host in the reception line (and got a flogging for his trouble). To suggest that Wiccans and pagans endorse or practice this behavior is no different than the blood libel heaped upon Jews since the middle ages, and it is done with the same intent.
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mdrummer5
Guest
Well said. The sad thing is that those that think Paganism is evil are too ignorant to learn otherwise for fear that if they read about it (or anything other than the Bible), it will clearly put impure thoughts in their head and make them start thinking about Satan who as I understand it has nothing to do with Paganism. There’s also the fear of having to admit to being wrong after speaking about things they don’t even understand.
Fine then you take your blaster… but nothing is as powerful as… The Schwartz!!!
Fine then you take your blaster… but nothing is as powerful as… The Schwartz!!!
J
joandarc2008
Guest
This is why I don’t like bringing a lot of my past into this because I have been stuck reading works such as Crowley’s and some others and I really wish I could stick my head back into ignorance. Ken - even though we disagree I have always tried to show you respect and compassion your lack of compassion floors me for someone that is here trying to show the good face of his religion.
J
joandarc2008
Guest
That’s very true - discussing a Necromantic Mage (or whatever the correct term is) is very different than discusing the homeless lady on the corner reading palms for money for smokes. Both activities could broadly classified “pagan” but one is going to affect the average person only directly involved a whole lot more. I guess this is why definitions are important.
M
mdrummer5
Guest
Ken - even though we disagree I have always tried to show you respect and compassion your lack of compassion floors me for someone that is here trying to show the good face of his religion.
Really???And what will you do or say to the Wicca/Pagan/.Mancer that is actively stealing the Body of Christ from your Church to use in ceremony?
I’m sure Ken can “fight his own battles” but you make that comment to him when earlier today you posed a question to me asking what I would say to some hypothetical person that clearly does not show the good face of Paganism???
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joandarc2008
Guest
And if you look at the statement that you just posted the reason that I used all three terms is that one that may be from a particular class may be less than enthusiastic to admit to it. But hey Ken if he has been reminded of the conversation at this point already knows why I have made the statement I have made. Like I said would love to be as ignorant but the problem with mancers is that they last longer hiding in wiccan and pagan circles than they do in Christian ones. Although youth groups are great recruiting tools when they can get into them for long enough to build trust. But hey what do I know - I was only married to one who was also “acting” as a good Catholic to do just that and he wasn’t the only one.Really???
I’m sure Ken can “fight his own battles” but you make that comment to him when earlier today you posed a question to me asking what I would say to some hypothetical person that clearly does not show the good face of Paganism???
K
kenofken
Guest
I gotta tell you, it’s hard to feel compassionate when people consistently make ugly and calculated generalizations about my faith.This is why I don’t like bringing a lot of my past into this because I have been stuck reading works such as Crowley’s and some others and I really wish I could stick my head back into ignorance. Ken - even though we disagree I have always tried to show you respect and compassion your lack of compassion floors me for someone that is here trying to show the good face of his religion.
I too have read many of Crowley’s works. I have friends in the Ordo Templi Orientalis, the group he founded (or rather shaped into its modern form). I have had the privilege of studying a bit under Lon Milo Duquette, one of the order’s elder members and perhaps the most knowledgeable living scholars on Crowley’s works. I can say with great confidence that you do not have the background to understand Crowley’s work in any depth. Most of his work was written for people with an advanced understanding of yoga, meditation, Kaballah, numerology, classic literature, Freemasonry and the esoteric magickal systems prevalent at the turn of the 20th Century.
Much of what he wrote about autobiographically was tongue in cheek, calculated to scandalize the tight-laced Edwardian society in which he lived. Make no mistake, he was at times not at all a nice guy, and he frequently owned up to that. But Crowley did not practice “necromancy” and he is but one of many sources which inform most of modern paganism. I have attended a Gnostic Mass and I can tell you there were no Catholic Hosts involved, stolen or otherwise. They use their own cookie/wafer prepared to recipes handed down in their own tradition.
The fact that you may have known an angry and disturbed individual who stole a Host or wanted to does not make it a generalized phenomenon. We can find instances of disturbed criminals who tortured and even killed people conducting rituals similar to Exorcism or crucifixion. Would it be fair to represent these as part of a general movement within Catholicism or a natural outgrowth of that faith? Of course not. The same principle applies here.
I don’t know how to find the old posts to which you refer. Is “third class” an oblique reference to the notion that I don’t know what “real” pagans are like and that by dint of spiritual warfare literature you do? Am I to understand that after six years and initiation to a level roughly equal to Catholic deacon that I am privy only to the “sweet and light” version of my craft? Upon full ordination shall I expect to be sent on Host-stealing duty?
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mdrummer5
Guest
You make a completely hypocritical statement, get called out on it, then try to defend it… but I’m ignorant… got it. Your having been married to the ONE example you’ve provided does not make you an expert unfortunate as it may be. I’m dating a Catholic… I’m reading books on Catholicism… so by your logic I’m an expert… right? It sounds more like you’re jaded by that experience which has lead you to an unfair assumption about most others who practice any faith dealing with the occult like someone who’s been cheated on leading to severe trust issues with members of the opposite sex.And if you look at the statement that you just posted the reason that I used all three terms is that one that may be from a particular class may be less than enthusiastic to admit to it. But hey Ken if he has been reminded of the conversation at this point already knows why I have made the statement I have made. Like I said would love to be as ignorant but the problem with mancers is that they last longer hiding in wiccan and pagan circles than they do in Christian ones. Although youth groups are great recruiting tools when they can get into them for long enough to build trust. But hey what do I know - I was only married to one who was also “acting” as a good Catholic to do just that and he wasn’t the only one.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
Same here. Studied paganism vs. Christianity, Christian philosophy, and then pagan traditions and the various “types” of pagan groups, for want of a better term. I’m no expert, but I can certainly know enough to tell the difference between fact and an allergic reaction to the word paganism.
I was lucky enough to be taught some pagan theology even in Religious Education classes at school. My understanding however is that in some American states they do not teach about other religions at all.
I was lucky enough to be taught some pagan theology even in Religious Education classes at school. My understanding however is that in some American states they do not teach about other religions at all.
K
kildare
Guest
Theodosius was no bin Laden. Believe me that law is more a sign of those desperate times than a reflection on his character. I’ve read his biolgraphy, and while he did have blood on his hands, he was a man of mercy and repentance, who publically apologised for his wrong doing by donning sackcloth and ashes and sitting with the poor in Church. I’ve read a few books on the era(the collapse of the roman empire), and such draconian punishments seem to have been par for the course. There are laws from another emperor(pagan) threatening death for any shopkeepers that raises prices. What was happening is that the authority of the state was collapsing and as the imperial power became weaker the edicts were made to sound harsher and harsher. In reality they had little effect and very few people were put to death. We know this because Theodosius continued to appoint pagans to high profile positions. And as we know most peasants in western europe remained happily pagan, at least until the arrival of the monks from Ireland centuries later.
In the 1700s the English writer Edward Gibbon famously chronicled the decline of the Roman Empire finally laying the blame on the increase of superstition. Initially Rome was a very rational place apparently, so he figured the rise of irrationality must have coincided with Christainit`s rise. However if you read St Augustine you see that Christianity was actually allied with the rational (neo-platonic philosophers) against the more animistic cults that were popular at the time. The Senate which was still largely pagan (even after the death of Theodosius) (irrationally) blamed Christianity and the removal of the statue of Victory for the sack of Rome in 410. Augustine argued on the that Roman arms had depended not on Godly endowment but on their own training, discipline and valour. Unfortunately the roman world was in an end of the world craze - no doubt christiniaty benefitted from this as well - but rationality was the big loser and I think that the recovery of this was the main objective of the quoted codex, rather than any faith inspired persecution. Christianity did not consist of charms and spells, though it was far more politically challenging than paganism, being based more on changing society than using “harmless” magic. And yet the emperors, and not the senate, adopted it. Very curious indeed!
In the 1700s the English writer Edward Gibbon famously chronicled the decline of the Roman Empire finally laying the blame on the increase of superstition. Initially Rome was a very rational place apparently, so he figured the rise of irrationality must have coincided with Christainit`s rise. However if you read St Augustine you see that Christianity was actually allied with the rational (neo-platonic philosophers) against the more animistic cults that were popular at the time. The Senate which was still largely pagan (even after the death of Theodosius) (irrationally) blamed Christianity and the removal of the statue of Victory for the sack of Rome in 410. Augustine argued on the that Roman arms had depended not on Godly endowment but on their own training, discipline and valour. Unfortunately the roman world was in an end of the world craze - no doubt christiniaty benefitted from this as well - but rationality was the big loser and I think that the recovery of this was the main objective of the quoted codex, rather than any faith inspired persecution. Christianity did not consist of charms and spells, though it was far more politically challenging than paganism, being based more on changing society than using “harmless” magic. And yet the emperors, and not the senate, adopted it. Very curious indeed!
J
joandarc2008
Guest
I don’t know where you get that I am making a generalization when no where did I say all. I said some. Just as you have said some many times. Regardless. I am saying that yes these things do go on. Whether it be the rule or not does not matter.I gotta tell you, it’s hard to feel compassionate when people consistently make ugly and calculated generalizations about my faith.
I too have read many of Crowley’s works. I have friends in the Ordo Templi Orientalis, the group he founded (or rather shaped into its modern form). I have had the privilege of studying a bit under Lon Milo Duquette, one of the order’s elder members and perhaps the most knowledgeable living scholars on Crowley’s works. I can say with great confidence that you do not have the background to understand Crowley’s work in any depth. Most of his work was written for people with an advanced understanding of yoga, meditation, Kaballah, numerology, classic literature, Freemasonry and the esoteric magickal systems prevalent at the turn of the 20th Century.
Much of what he wrote about autobiographically was tongue in cheek, calculated to scandalize the tight-laced Edwardian society in which he lived. Make no mistake, he was at times not at all a nice guy, and he frequently owned up to that. But Crowley did not practice “necromancy” and he is but one of many sources which inform most of modern paganism. I have attended a Gnostic Mass and I can tell you there were no Catholic Hosts involved, stolen or otherwise. They use their own cookie/wafer prepared to recipes handed down in their own tradition.
The fact that you may have known an angry and disturbed individual who stole a Host or wanted to does not make it a generalized phenomenon. We can find instances of disturbed criminals who tortured and even killed people conducting rituals similar to Exorcism or crucifixion. Would it be fair to represent these as part of a general movement within Catholicism or a natural outgrowth of that faith? Of course not. The same principle applies here.
I don’t know how to find the old posts to which you refer. Is “third class” an oblique reference to the notion that I don’t know what “real” pagans are like and that by dint of spiritual warfare literature you do? Am I to understand that after six years and initiation to a level roughly equal to Catholic deacon that I am privy only to the “sweet and light” version of my craft? Upon full ordination shall I expect to be sent on Host-stealing duty?
The simple question that was posed that started this was what would you do if someone was stealing the Host? I’m out since even that question is too over the top for you to discus.
K
kenofken
Guest
There’s little to debate on that point. If someone is truly stealing a host or taking it in an inappropriate fashion, the priest/servers can intercede and either explain the faux pas or have the person removed if they truly are doing something inappropriate. What’s over the top to me is the implication that churches stand a significant risk of having their Hosts stolen for “occult” ritual use.I don’t know where you get that I am making a generalization when no where did I say all. I said some. Just as you have said some many times. Regardless. I am saying that yes these things do go on. Whether it be the rule or not does not matter.
The simple question that was posed that started this was what would you do if someone was stealing the Host? I’m out since even that question is too over the top for you to discus.
C
cyberwolf001
Guest
Tell me about it. We make our own.There’s little to debate on that point. If someone is truly stealing a host or taking it in an inappropriate fashion, the priest/servers can intercede and either explain the faux pas or have the person removed if they truly are doing something inappropriate. What’s over the top to me is the implication that churches stand a significant risk of having their Hosts stolen for “occult” ritual use.
A
auntieeme26
Guest
I just joined this quaint community and I have to say my interst is at an tremendous peak. I just spent a good hour reading this thread and it really feels more like a debate class than a ‘God-marked’ community.
As Christians, how in this beauty of a world can we come together and work through God if we cannot even come to an agreement or even compromise on a silly issue like’occultism’? The esoteric views and ideas are older than the trees and really in all respects…that should be a good enough reason to at least educate ourselves thoroughly on the subject. It will give way to a open mind or better yet, high-mind and that could be a starting point.
Seems all I read was a ton of justifications and excuses on why or why not one or the ohter was wrong. No one convinced me with anything that was presented or recruited me to their ‘team’ which is what seems to be the battle…who is right, and who will agree with me and my high-minded, one=way, matter-of-fact , set in stone, reality.
What popped in my mind as I was digesting all of this(by the way, digesting with an extreme craving and want to spite it all right back out) the verse 2Cor.2;15 'We are to be the fragranced Christ to our brethren and the lost and dying." soothed me. Peace of mind is a beauty of a piece of sweet God that only is given anf felt through him. We have got to step back and see the panoramic view. We can NOT smell the stink of anything without it first being at one point or other our very own or so close that it is preventable.
What I am projecting is a litte ‘something’ that everyone of us is…we are all a piece of beauty…we are all the sweetest smelling aroma of Christ…but we also can choose to devoid completly our God given right to properly choose.
The ‘quanta’ value of this little message is truly remembering and reminding ourselves that we do not know how we truly smell to the ones closest to us…we have to remain strong and keep our moral values away and not mixed in with personal prejudice. Virtue and character are the gold! I can promise when those two fellows are together the only smell will be purity and an open door for God to move in, out, and through each and every one of us!
As Christians, how in this beauty of a world can we come together and work through God if we cannot even come to an agreement or even compromise on a silly issue like’occultism’? The esoteric views and ideas are older than the trees and really in all respects…that should be a good enough reason to at least educate ourselves thoroughly on the subject. It will give way to a open mind or better yet, high-mind and that could be a starting point.
Seems all I read was a ton of justifications and excuses on why or why not one or the ohter was wrong. No one convinced me with anything that was presented or recruited me to their ‘team’ which is what seems to be the battle…who is right, and who will agree with me and my high-minded, one=way, matter-of-fact , set in stone, reality.
What popped in my mind as I was digesting all of this(by the way, digesting with an extreme craving and want to spite it all right back out) the verse 2Cor.2;15 'We are to be the fragranced Christ to our brethren and the lost and dying." soothed me. Peace of mind is a beauty of a piece of sweet God that only is given anf felt through him. We have got to step back and see the panoramic view. We can NOT smell the stink of anything without it first being at one point or other our very own or so close that it is preventable.
What I am projecting is a litte ‘something’ that everyone of us is…we are all a piece of beauty…we are all the sweetest smelling aroma of Christ…but we also can choose to devoid completly our God given right to properly choose.
The ‘quanta’ value of this little message is truly remembering and reminding ourselves that we do not know how we truly smell to the ones closest to us…we have to remain strong and keep our moral values away and not mixed in with personal prejudice. Virtue and character are the gold! I can promise when those two fellows are together the only smell will be purity and an open door for God to move in, out, and through each and every one of us!
K
kenofken
Guest
We probably need more people like you on this forum, but you’re probably too nice a soul to survive here. It’s not like a “God-marked community” or even a debate class. It’s more like the urban warfare going on in Libya right now. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few very decent and interesting people on here, and it’s the only reason I ever come back. But you will also encounter some of the most vicious, angry and self righteous people that our society is capable of producing. I tell you that as a former journalist who saw, up close, the very worst humanity had to offer. Keep your eyes open when you travel in this online country. You’ll find it’s simply not worth weighing in on many of the angrier threads. It can be a very spiritually toxic place. Take care.I just joined this quaint community and I have to say my interst is at an tremendous peak. I just spent a good hour reading this thread and it really feels more like a debate class than a ‘God-marked’ community.
As Christians, how in this beauty of a world can we come together and work through God if we cannot even come to an agreement or even compromise on a silly issue like’occultism’? The esoteric views and ideas are older than the trees and really in all respects…that should be a good enough reason to at least educate ourselves thoroughly on the subject. It will give way to a open mind or better yet, high-mind and that could be a starting point.
Seems all I read was a ton of justifications and excuses on why or why not one or the ohter was wrong. No one convinced me with anything that was presented or recruited me to their ‘team’ which is what seems to be the battle…who is right, and who will agree with me and my high-minded, one=way, matter-of-fact , set in stone, reality.
What popped in my mind as I was digesting all of this(by the way, digesting with an extreme craving and want to spite it all right back out) the verse 2Cor.2;15 'We are to be the fragranced Christ to our brethren and the lost and dying." soothed me. Peace of mind is a beauty of a piece of sweet God that only is given anf felt through him. We have got to step back and see the panoramic view. We can NOT smell the stink of anything without it first being at one point or other our very own or so close that it is preventable.
What I am projecting is a litte ‘something’ that everyone of us is…we are all a piece of beauty…we are all the sweetest smelling aroma of Christ…but we also can choose to devoid completly our God given right to properly choose.
The ‘quanta’ value of this little message is truly remembering and reminding ourselves that we do not know how we truly smell to the ones closest to us…we have to remain strong and keep our moral values away and not mixed in with personal prejudice. Virtue and character are the gold! I can promise when those two fellows are together the only smell will be purity and an open door for God to move in, out, and through each and every one of us!
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