Let's talk about Annulment

[CathBoy1]

In short, you had no perspective other than comments from other individuals =who repeat the urban myth that the number of decrees are “astounding”.

I have quite the perspective, 70% of all those who seek annulment receive them in the Catholic Church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have quite the perspective, 70% of all those who seek annulment receive them in the Catholic Church.

Which could be because those who don’t have good cases for annulment are discouraged from even bothering to seek one and never make it into the pipeline to be counted.

 

[CathBoy1]

That’s a possibility, also a possibility is that the Catholic Church grants annulment much too easily these days, as compared to the past.

 

[Peebo]

The Catholic church is the sole arbiter of who may or may not be granted an annulment, it’s not the business of anyone here or elsewhere, the tribunals take evidence from witnesses and interview those involved in the process. If someone thinks they are better qualified than the tribunals to discern who or who should not be granted an annulment then they should present their findings to their Bishop.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

also a possibility is that the Catholic Church grants annulment much too easily these days, as compared to the past.

People often seem to prefer the possibility that reflects negatively on a Church they think has gotten too liberal or whatever.

 

[LeonardoArruda]

rather than admit that sin has caused the couple to be divorced.

What a priest told me about it:

Well the whole point of annulment is to find out if they were married in the first place, a divorce takes a couple that is indeed married and slipt them apart so they can date another person (that’s wrong by the way), a marrige cannot be broken, what annulment does is investigate the relationship to see if the marrige was valid, some times they find out that the man didnt really wanted to marry the woman, or that the woman was cheating on him the whole time, or that the marrige was forced, or that the woman married a man and found out that he has being lying to her the whole time and his actualy a criminal wanted in 4 states etc…

 

[farronwolf]

In the early 1960s, about 300 declarations of nullity came from the United States each year; today that annual figure has grown to over 60,000

This is from a 1996 article.

 

[otjm]

I have quite the perspective, 70% of all those who seek annulment receive them in the Catholic Church.

Actuyally, you do not have a perspective, as the 70% figure does not include all of those who approach a priest and are told they do not have a case (as there is no means or method of recording those) nor those who approach a priest, get the questionaires, and never file them.

And again to your comment of the numbers of decrees of nullity being “astounding” - less than 1% of marriages ending up before a tribunal is not “astounding” numbers of decrees of nullity.

You lack perspective.

 

[otjm]

And that was done because the Church had not yet recognized all of the issues which go to consent; and without comparing the old Canons to the new ones, it is possible they also found other issues which constitute an impediment.

That is not the only issue the Church has ever addressed, with a far more open approach to resolving matters concerning sacraments; early in the Church history one was allowed only to go to Confession once - which tended towards people not going at all unitl on their death bed. It was the Irish monks who introduced the possibility of multiple confessions; and I would not be the least bit surprised if at that time some people thought the Church had gone astray and was “soft” on sin. Canon law was not updated until 1983; the prior Code was written in 1917.

And it just might be possible that the Church - and the rest of society in general - had learned a bit about human nature and some of the issues attendant to us, and specifically, to intent.

No one has to make a case to the tribunal. If, according to the current Code, one would have grounds for a declaration of nullity and knows the other party will not bring the case, one is free to not bring the case either - nor are they free to marry, never mind that ontologically they are unless and until the Church through a tribunal overcomes the presumption of validity. Which is a long way of saying, one can choose to live under the 1917 Code - although they cannot force the other party to do so.

 

[CathBoy1]

Perhaps you lack perspective, you profess that there were 70,000+ annulments allowed within the Catholic Church in 1990, you can word it as percentages all you want the fact of the matter is 70,000+ annulment were granted that year that is a lot by anybody’s count.

And that’s completely ignoring the fact that 70% of those who seek out annulment within the Catholic Church receive it right now.

 

[whatistrue]

70% of those who seek out annulment

70% of those whose cases come before a Tribunal. Not quite the same thing, and we don’t keep records of those which never make it that far, so there is no good way to tell how much that figure would change. Could be minimal, could be significant.

you can word it as percentages all you want

Sauce for the goose…

 

[Vico]

In the early 1960s, about 300 declarations of nullity came from the United States each year; today that annual figure has grown to over 60,000

This is from a 1996 article.

In case you did not know, the 1917 canon law did not allow marriage of a Catholic to a non-Catholic. A change was made in 1966:

Therefore, after having consulted the sacred Pastors on this subject, and having attentively evaluated all the circumstances, the two impediments of mixed religion and disparity of cult will remain in force, though local Ordinaries are granted the faculty to dispense them according to the provisions of the Apostolic Letter Pastorale Munus , no. 19 and 20 when a grave cause is present, and provided that the prescriptions of the law are observed.

Furthermore, the following provisions promulgated by the authority of His Holiness Pope Paul VI, and retained in the legislation proper to the Oriental Churches, will be definitively introduced in the Code of Canon Law which is currently being revised if experience shows them to be positively received.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/...ith_doc_19660318_istr-matrimoni-misti_en.html

Then in the 1983 canon law, another change was made, in effect through 2010, after which it was removed, allowing for the one making a formal defection from the Catholic Church to allow valid marriage without Catholic form.

 

[CathBoy1]

CathBoy1:

70% of those who seek out annulment

70% of those whose cases come before a Tribunal. Not quite the same thing, and we don’t keep records of those which never make it that far, so there is no good way to tell how much that figure would change. Could be minimal, could be significant.

you can word it as percentages all you want

Sauce for the goose…

Thanks for pointing that out to me
Been driving all day yesterday and today and not much sleep.

 

[CathBoy1]

In case you did not know, the 1917 canon law did not allow marriage of a Catholic to a non-Catholic. A change was made in 1966:

I wasn’t aware of that, seemingly a contributing factor in the rising of annulment rates, still the numbers themselves do look staggering, do they not?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

In case you did not know, the 1917 canon law did not allow marriage of a Catholic to a non-Catholic. A change was made in 1966:

I wasn’t aware of that, seemingly a contributing factor in the rising of annulment rates, still the numbers themselves do look staggering, do they not?

I looked up CARA statistic, and I do not know how accurate it is. “Fifteen percent of Catholics who had obtained a civil divorce said they had also sought an annulment.”

Edit: June 2007 study. Also: “Of those who have, 49 percent had the request granted.”

 

[otjm]

Perhaps you lack perspective, you profess that there were 70,000+ annulments allowed within the Catholic Church in 1990, you can word it as percentages all you want the fact of the matter is 70,000+ annulment were granted that year that is a lot by anybody’s count.

70,000 out of 9 million or more marriages is perspective.

And that’s completely ignoring the fact that 70% of those who seek out annulment within the Catholic Church receive it right now.

the last year for any numbers of decrees of nullity is 19,497 in 2019; and since 1990 the Catholic population has increased by 17%, so the percentage of Catholic weddings subsequently receiving a decree of nullity is even lower.

And as I showed, the percentage of those who may start the process and quit before filing with a tribunal gives an even lower percentage of marriages which receive a decree of nullity.

 

[otjm]

I looked up CARA statistic, and I do not know how accurate it is

CARA, the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, is the group which does research for the bishops of the US. They use statistical modeling when doing surveys; and also collect information from both the diocesan level and the parish level - although they will note that at the parish level, they do not obtain answers from all parishes, and will use modeling based on answers received.

And yes, I know the adage popularized by Mark Twain “There are three kinds of lies: lies, d**ned lies, and statistics”, but I would trust their findings far more than, say Pew Research. As an example, they are far more likely to filter out responses when asking a question related to faith, of people who attend Mass and those who are nominal Catholics but don’t darken the door of the local parish. I don’t know when they started doing research for the Church, but it has been decades, not years, and they appear to be very trustworthy.They have also produced articles on the process they follow, and appear very open.

 

[Phemie]

That’s a possibility, also a possibility is that the Catholic Church grants annulment much too easily these days, as compared to the past.

Or, it’s quite possible that few people petitioned for a decree of nullity before because they didn’t even know it existed. And there were a lot fewer divorces.

 

[Phemie]

farronwolf:

In the early 1960s, about 300 declarations of nullity came from the United States each year; today that annual figure has grown to over 60,000

This is from a 1996 article.

In case you did not know, the 1917 canon law did not allow marriage of a Catholic to a non-Catholic. A change was made in 1966:

Therefore, after having consulted the sacred Pastors on this subject, and having attentively evaluated all the circumstances, the two impediments of mixed religion and disparity of cult will remain in force, though local Ordinaries are granted the faculty to dispense them according to the provisions of the Apostolic Letter Pastorale Munus , no. 19 and 20 when a grave cause is present, and provided that the prescriptions of the law are observed.

Furthermore, the following provisions promulgated by the authority of His Holiness Pope Paul VI, and retained in the legislation proper to the Oriental Churches, will be definitively introduced in the Code of Canon Law which is currently being revised if experience shows them to be positively received.

Instruction on mixed marriages, 18 March 1966

Then in the 1983 canon law, another change was made, in effect through 2010, after which it was removed, allowing for the one making a formal defection from the Catholic Church to allow valid marriage without Catholic form.

My understanding is that mixed marriages were permitted before 1966, as I have relatives who were in such marriages. You needed a dispensation (now you only need permission). And the marriage didn’t usually take place in the church proper, you were married in the sacristy or the priest’s office. You could not marry a non-baptized person.

 

[Phemie]

CathBoy1:

Vico:

In case you did not know, the 1917 canon law did not allow marriage of a Catholic to a non-Catholic. A change was made in 1966:

I wasn’t aware of that, seemingly a contributing factor in the rising of annulment rates, still the numbers themselves do look staggering, do they not?

I looked up CARA statistic, and I do not know how accurate it is. “Fifteen percent of Catholics who had obtained a civil divorce said they had also sought an annulment.”

Edit: June 2007 study. Also: “Of those who have, 49 percent had the request granted.”

Which means that a large percentage of divorced Catholics never bother to seek a decreed of nullity. By those statistics, 7.5% of divorced Catholics get a decree of nullity.