Let's Talk About Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter At_Trent
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hmm, Ok. As you define them, these people “largely unknown to mainstream Catholics” would seem to be schismatics. But at the end of your post, in reference to them, you went from using “Radical Traditionalists” to just “Traditionalists.” I hope you’re not equating the two. IMHO, there is really no such thing as a “traditional” or (especially) “conservative” Catholic. You either accept the teaching Authority of the Church or you don’t. You’re either orthodox or heterodox. Though you could certainly call people who prefer the EF of the Mass and, in a general sense, “doing things the way they used to be done” (with “prefer” being the operative word), “traditionalists.” What does the word “traditionalist” mean but someone who believes in holding on to and reverencing - traditions! - traditional beliefs and practices. To be clear, this is “tradition” with a little ‘t’, not a capital ‘T’ as in Sacred Tradition. I consider myself a traditionalist in this sense. For example, at yesterday’s Mass, our opening hymn was “Amazing Grace,” which is the de facto Protestant national anthem, and, much worse, one of the hymns during Communion had the lyric, “let us drink wine together on our knees.” What kind of, uhm…let’s say nonsense is this? Among other vapid and kum-ba-ya lyrics. This is confusing at best, scandalous and heretical at worst. How about: “Let us drink the Precious Blood of Christ together on our knees?” No confusion there. Our Eucharistic hymns used to be about - get this - the Eucharist! Now they’re about us and our “communal meal” to the exclusion of the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Remember “Let all mortal flesh keep silence?” But enough of that.

What about these “Radical Traditionalists” teaching on Hell do you disagree with? That it’s eternal and many people go there and it’s a real possibility for you and me?
 
Bottom line: Do you, or do you not, accept the teaching authority of the Catholic Magisterium and the Vatican? Do you submit to the authority of the Pope? It really doesn’t get any simpler than this.
 
Do you, or do you not, submit to the teaching authority of the Catholic Magisterium and the Vatican? Do you submit to the authority of the Pope? It really doesn’t get any simpler than this.
 
Common folks. Do you really have to make my job more “interesting”? If you come to the TC forum, you are going to find Traditionalist Catholics. You are welcome to visit and share. You are welcome to expose your point of view.

You are NOT welcome to
  1. Preach to others
  2. Derail the conversation
  3. Attack Traditionalists or Traditional Catholicism
  4. Make comments that are not helpful to others.
  5. Label or pass judgment on people.
I’m going to make this very simple.

IF YOUR ONLY INTEREST IS IN DERAILING A THREAD OR RANTING AGAINST A GROUP, FIND ANOTHER PLACE TO DO IT.

Such behavior is uncharitable, unnecessary and takes the fun out of being here.

Offenders will be escorted to the door. Do I make myself clear?

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
The Three things that deliver more souls to hell than anything else: Complacency, Lust, and indifferentism.

THis is sort of what I tell myself:

I need to keep my mind in the fire often because I often feel the Fires of another sort shooting through me, and I can only hope and pray God delivers me at the end from his wrath, and by his grace grants me victory over those demons of the abyss.

Do not ever settle for thinking you are ok.

YOu are not: Cupidity wages war in you, and I gurantee no one here wrestles like they should.

If you examine yourself, and are brave enough to tell yourself the truth, you will see that you are an utter failure at doing anything close to your best at pleasing GOd: Rather, all your motives are driven by self-love and self-indulgence.

WOuld you love GOd if he abandoned you to a hell on earth, as many of the saints felt he did?

DO you really care about him when you do not do your duty to your state in life, and instead make it a priority to converse with strangers on an internet forum?

Can any of us here really claim to love GOd as we should? Do we not seek to satisfy our ego and our need to be heard?

God forgive our hypocrisy and self-centeredness…

How do we say God wills all to be saved when he clearly wills to save only some, and of those he saves, it is a relatively precious few?

“If the just man is barely saved, what of the unjust?”

ALso, it’s kind of hard to take hell seriously when the current theological opinons of so many theologians is more in line with a sort of semi-pelagianism and pseudo-universalism:

Original sin does not have the chracter of sin for these others, it is simply being born outside the kingdom family of GOd (As the Semi-Pelagians taught). Baptism simply incorporates us into the church and the “People of GOd.” Never mind it erasing the stain and GUilt of Sin naturally Contracted and the Wrath of God.

DOn’t you know? THose in “invincible ignorance” can hope for salvation, because somehow, being ignorant of the truth is a good reason to not be subject to its requirements.

RIght. Aquinas taught that Ignorance was a punishment for original sin. Plus invincible ignorance simply means not being guilty of the sin of unbelief. I can think of a million more sins to sommit that will send you to hell besides that single one though!

SO how can modern catholics form a decent sense of hell when the modern(ist) theologians are teaching that no one may be in it anyway, and that basically everyone can be saved? When you abandon tradition, dogma, and sound reasoning, everything gets thrown outta wack. YOu pull one stone, and the foundation begins to crumble.
 
A big problem in todays world is the idea that the default is heaven. I admit that this line of thinking can be easy because it is comforting and we are immersed in this style of thinking in our culture. It can be hard to think about the fact that we are all on the road to hell and cannot save ourselves especially if we grew up in the post Vatican II culture like me. In my opinion, it would do a great deal of good if the concept of hell and the fact that most will go there was preached about, Jesus seemed to think it would be beneficial
 
For me I suppose I have a clear understanding of hell. Heck I was raised Catholic. But I don’t dwell on hell, if it didn’t come up now and again on this forum it would rarely cross my mind.

I find myself more focused on Heaven these days. I have lived to see many souls perish whom I known well. None that I can think of who rejected God or were evil. Some who were not the best Catholics I suppose one could say. But in the end who am I to judge them or place them where I think they belong?

So I often think of myself in the sense of purgatory or Heaven. Personally I believe it helps one to remain in a state of grace.

Who was it that said… if you shoot for heaven you gain earth automatically, If you shoot for earth you miss both.

God Bless, Gary
 
You gave us some great things to think about, Gregory, especially in the first part of your comments. In struggling with my particular sin (that is, the one that is most of a problem for me), which is one that many other men struggle with (ok…it’s Lust), God has taught me so many things about myself. In short, that I am nothing and can do nothing without Him and merit only hell. Sure, He says as much in the Good Book, but I have truly learned it through experience, which is even better. In a certain sense, I’m glad I have had this sin to struggle with. It’s almost as if it were a “gift” from God to let me see who and what I really am - namely, a faithless sinner. I’m reminded of Paul’s “thorn in the side.” I suppose I should say that it is something that God has allowed the evil one to tempt me with, which he readily does. Satan does not know what the final outcome will be, nor do I. He hopes for Hell, I hope to vanquish him with Christ’s strength, once for all. God knows, however. Either way, it will redound to His glory, which, for my part, I hope to share in. It makes me realize that anything good I have is not of me, but a gift from God.

I found a book in our parish library a while ago called “Divine Intimacy,” which consists of meditations for each day of the year, written by a Carmelite priest, Fr. Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalen. I turned to a random section one day and found some tremendous meditations on just the very thing you were talking about. I took it to our Adoration chapel and left it for myself and others to read and someone promptly “removed” it within a week. I suppose (and hope) it will be back in about 10 months. I have been looking online for a used copy, as it’s pretty expensive new - I think it is only printed in hardcover currently - and finally found one on eBay for $29.05 w/ free shipping. I can’t wait until it comes. I going to re-read that particular section again, as they are great meditations for Lent.

Peace
 
brotherjoe said:
I have not read all these posts, but the thought of Hell troubles me. I can definitely understand eternal separation from God for those who willfuly choose it, but eternal unending and unbearable punisment?
Click to expand...
Eternal separation from God IS unending and unbearable punishment.
brotherjoe said:
If I were convinced that Hell consists of that I would be forced to believe that a good God would not even create beings capable of meriting it.
Click to expand...
In order to make us incapable of meriting eternal damnation, God would have had to make us automatons without free will. Merit or demerit lies in the will. Without free will, we could not freely and truly love God. So without free will, we also would be incapable of meriting eternal beatitude.
brotherjoe said:
I would be a far greater heretic if I did not believe that God is infinitely good than if I can’t think of Hell as an eternal torture chamber.
Click to expand...
Heresy is heresy. All heresies are to be avoided. To justify one heresy on the grounds that it’s not as egregious as another is to cultivate the hardness of heart that leads to final impenitence.
brotherjoe said:
That being said, keeping the salvation of souls, ours and that of others - as a daily prayer intention and incentive to live good lives is very important!! 😉
Click to expand...
What for? If you don’t accept that hell is eternal torment, from what ought souls to be saved?
 
Victorious said:
Eternal separation from God IS unending and unbearable punishment.

In order to make us incapable of meriting eternal damnation, God would have had to make us automatons without free will. Merit or demerit lies in the will. Without free will, we could not freely and truly love God. So without free will, we also would be incapable of meriting eternal beatitude.
  • You seem to take an all or nothing approach. Also, only Christ merited eternal beatitude. For the resto of us, it is a gift of God’s grace.
Heresy is heresy. All heresies are to be avoided. To justify one heresy on the grounds that it’s not as egregious as another is to cultivate the hardness of heart that leads to final impenitence.
  • I don’t actually believe a nuanced view of Hell is heresy.
What for? If you don’t accept that hell is eternal torment, from what ought souls to be saved?
  • Just punishment in proportion to our culpability and loss of God’s love
Click to expand...
 
But no, my friends, we must meditate, not only on the pre-destination of seeing God in Heaven, we must also meditate on the eternity of Hell. I heard a priest in the charismatic conference with about 10,000 laypeople and 300 priests present. He was preaching, “My friends, God is love, God is mercy and you will see His Infinite Mercy at the end of the world, delivering souls from Hell.”

What heresy! Yet his bishop did not remove his faculties, and he was allowed to continue to preach such heresy. With our little human intelligence we make a little “philosophic reasoning”. God is love, God is our Father. How can a loving Father take His little Peter and throw him in to the furnace of Hell? Why that would be an insult to God, Who is love.

Whoa! Hold on a minute! Heresy? Is he saying that God is not merciful? Is he saying that no one is going to Heaven and that we will not see God be merciful to us and send us to purgatory? He was just saying that not every one is going to hell.

And personally (and I think a lot of priests would agree with me, although I’m not sure) I think that it would be unhealthy to meditate on Hell daily. I mean, unless you’re just saying to think about it for a few minutes to just remind yourself that it is possible for you to go to Hell if you’re not careful. However, if you’re talking about scaring the daylights out of you every day, well, I don’t think that is healthy. You may end up despairing which is a mortal sin in itself, and yes, punishable by Hell if you do not repent.

I must say that when I was very young nigh, 8 years ago, I became very. VERY scrupulous. All Hell broke loose ( and I DO NOT say that to be funny). I was miserable. Scrupulosity is pretty much based on the fear of going to Hell and I was inordinately afraid to the point that I couldn’t even function properly. I still suffer from it to this day and I really am tired of it. I’m mentally, spiritually, and emotionally drained.

Besides, we are also told that we must be happy as a Cristian. If we are scaring ourselves to death with Hell every day, how are we supposed to be happy and function properly?
 
Today I’m reading St Alphonsus’ Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection, and he stresses the need for prayer, and a lot of it to secure salvation. I agree. God can bestow many graces on us, but if we don’t pray, we don’t benefit from them.

We can save ourselves from Hell. As Paul said, “pray without ceasing”. And Our Lord told us, “Ask and ye shall receive”.
 
At_Trent said:
Today I’m reading St Alphonsus’ Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection, and he stresses the need for prayer, and a lot of it to secure salvation. I agree. God can bestow many graces on us, but if we don’t pray, we don’t benefit from them.

We can save ourselves from Hell. As Paul said, “pray without ceasing”. And Our Lord told us, “Ask and ye shall receive”.
Click to expand...
Dear At Trent,
I have not read all of the posts here but this post of yours got me thinking.
If we are focused on prayer, as St.Paul says, then why would we want to talk about hell?
This got me wondering, maybe the reason a lot of people do not like to talk about hell is because they would rather spend the time praying to God unceasingly.
I personally believe that when we do take our focus away from God that we end up in hell. So I believe I understand what St. Paul is saying. To me praying without ceasing would be putting oneself in and opened to His presence and doing His will at all times. It is when we are not in or open to His presence or doing His will that we are indeed in hell. At that point we are beyond the point of just talking about it. We are living in it.
Does that make any sense?
 
simple_soul said:
Dear At Trent,
I have not read all of the posts here but this post of yours got me thinking.
If we are focused on prayer, as St.Paul says, then why would we want to talk about hell?
This got me wondering, maybe the reason a lot of people do not like to talk about hell is because they would rather spend the time praying to God unceasingly.
I personally believe that when we do take our focus away from God that we end up in hell. So I believe I understand what St. Paul is saying. To me praying without ceasing would be putting oneself in and opened to His presence and doing His will at all times. It is when we are not in or open to His presence or doing His will that we are indeed in hell. At that point we are beyond the point of just talking about it. We are living in it.
Does that make any sense?
Click to expand...
Well, we don’t have to dwell on Hell without ceasing of course. Praying without ceasing doesn’t leave a lot of time to think of hell, unless we are praying for souls.

But yes, what you offer makes sense. I have to say though, there is a school of thought that we can be in Hell as we are still alive. I find it hard to understand that, for if we were, our daily doings would certainly be interrupted. I don’t think we could laugh at something we see or hear if we were in truly in Hell.

Praying without ceasing is a chore, but for those who can do it, surely they place themselves in good standing with Our Father in Heaven.
 
At_Trent said:
Brief video w/quotes on Hell

youtube.com/watch?v=GCf8C1Xcpds&feature=player_embedded#at=295
Click to expand...
Yowzers… But isn’t it true that we’re judged twice? Once by our faith and again by our works? I read that these are dogmas. So we as catholics can expect to go to heaven as long as we believe in church teachings and respect the sacraments right? Surely we can expect to spend time in purgatory for our venial sins, but as long as we don’t exclude anything in the confessional then we’re safe.
 
TEPO said:
Yowzers… But isn’t it true that we’re judged twice? Once by our faith and again by our works? I read that these are dogmas. So we as catholics can expect to go to heaven as long as we believe in church teachings and respect the sacraments right? Surely we can expect to spend time in purgatory for our venial sins, but as long as we don’t exclude anything in the confessional then we’re safe.
Click to expand...
Well, imo, when we are satisfied we have done what is required to secure salvation, that is where we could err.

I’m re-reading some of St Alphonsus’ Preparation For Death to try and get a grip on it all.
alphonsianum.blogspot.com/2010/07/22-habit-of-sin.html
 
TomD123 said:
Christ implied that most go to hell.
Click to expand...
What Jesus said is that many “enter” the path that leads to hell. But He doesn’t say whether or not they continue on it until death - and that is the crucial issue.

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. (RSV)

Mt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. (Douay)
 
Nita said:
What Jesus said is that many “enter” the path that leads to hell. But He doesn’t say whether or not they continue on it until death - and that is the crucial issue.

Mt 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. (RSV)

Mt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. (Douay)
Click to expand...
If I understand your argument, you are saying that “entering a path” is not the same as staying on it until the final destination, but still you need to enter a path to get to the destination?

If so, why does Jesus say “few” concerning finding the path to life?
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top