Let's Talk About Hell

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It’s supposed to be a scare tactic! However, what should scare us even more away from sinning than the fear of Hell (which I would hope would be very great indeed for all of us - it’s a terrible place!) is the horror of how our sins offend God who loves us so much.

Consider the words of the Act of Contrition:

…and the Eighth Station in the Way of the Cross (St. Alphonsus Liguori):

Imperfect contrition: Sorrow for our sins because we are afraid of going to Hell.
Perfect contrition: Sorrow for our sins because they offend God.
The priest, through the sacrament of confession, is able to turn our imperfect contrition into perfect. That’s why we cannot just stay home and tell God we’re sorry ourselves, having perfect contrition is nearly impossible! 👍
 
It’s supposed to be a scare tactic! However, what should scare us even more away from sinning than the fear of Hell (which I would hope would be very great indeed for all of us - it’s a terrible place!) is the horror of how our sins offend God who loves us so much.
It’s the fact that it’s a scare tactic that it’s the problem. Or are you not aware of the events such as the Enlightenment which reduced the effectiveness of it?
Well, the truth does not go away because we don’t want to ponder it. And the sermons and writings of saints and doctors of the Church is where we draw these conclusions on the reality of Hell.

We can trust our own conscience of course, but so many of us fail. I don’t trust mine, and I fear I may go to Hell no matter how much I meditate on it and pray.
A healthy dose of rationality never killed anybody. I mean if you had kids, scaring them with hell may seem effective. When they grow up to become teenagers though, you really think that’s going to work better than explaining to them why premarital sex is bad?
 
It’s the fact that it’s a scare tactic that it’s the problem. Or are you not aware of the events such as the Enlightenment which reduced the effectiveness of it?
Well, I’m pretty sure it’s more or less completely ineffective as a threat today since few people (including many Catholics) don’t believe in Hell at all. That said, the Enlightenment was the beginning of the end.
A healthy dose of rationality never killed anybody.
What’s irrational about the fear of Hell? I’d say that’s more rational than the fear of any earthly consequences.
I mean if you had kids, scaring them with hell may seem effective. When they grow up to become teenagers though, you really think that’s going to work better than explaining to them why premarital sex is bad?
Why is it bad? A secularist may say it’s bad because of teenage pregnancy and disease. They’re making a consequentialist argument which has nothing to do with the immorality of the act itself.

What’s the Catholic answer? The Catholic answer is that it is wrong because 1) The act itself is offensive to God and 2) It it is a mortal sin which puts your soul in jeopardy of going to Hell.

What’s wrong in emphasising these things?
 
It’s the fact that it’s a scare tactic that it’s the problem. Or are you not aware of the events such as the Enlightenment which reduced the effectiveness of it?
Eek, God forbid we scare anyone! What is needed in this generation more than anything is a healthy dose of shame and fear of judgement.

I think about the four last things all the time, and mostly hell when I am out and about in the world. Looking around myself I can’t help but imagine that most people will probably be going there. It is unbelievably sad and terrible to think, but if my faith in Christ is true (and without a doubt it is), so must be hell.
 
Well, I’m pretty sure it’s more or less completely ineffective as a threat today since few people (including many Catholics) don’t believe in Hell at all. That said, the Enlightenment was the beginning of the end.
So with this, I take it you are admitting the defeat of such methods in defending the Church’s stances in the modern world? The Enlightenment wasn’t exactly the best of times for religion but it did show the value of rational thinking. To say otherwise and to dismiss those benefits entirely is to spit on the faces of those defending the Church by elevating it above religions of blind obedience and superstition.
What’s irrational about the fear of Hell? I’d say that’s more rational than the fear of any earthly consequences.
Sad fact is earthly consequences are more believable these days by a majority of the human race (especially in politics). Unless you know someone who can open fiery vortexes to the underworld, old hellfire and brimstone preaching can only take you so far.
Why is it bad? A secularist may say it’s bad because of teenage pregnancy and disease. They’re making a consequentialist argument which has nothing to do with the immorality of the act itself.

What’s the Catholic answer? The Catholic answer is that it is wrong because 1) The act itself is offensive to God and 2) It it is a mortal sin which puts your soul in jeopardy of going to Hell.
That’s not what I saw when I read the Catechism and several apologists arguing in defense of the Church’s position on abortion, homosexuality, contraceptives etc.

I saw a mix of moral universalism and consequentialism. Please remember that we are a religion of both faith and reason. We are called to defend it on all levels be it the spiritual, the intellectual, and the social.
What’s wrong in emphasising these things?
Eek, God forbid we scare anyone! What is needed in this generation more than anything is a healthy dose of shame and fear of judgement.

I think about the four last things all the time, and mostly hell when I am out and about in the world. Looking around myself I can’t help but imagine that most people will probably be going there. It is unbelievably sad and terrible to think, but if my faith in Christ is true (and without a doubt it is), so must be hell.
If you try defending the Church in a formal debate on social issues with this type of thinking you would penalized on the first round. You do know you can’t use religion or quote the Bible as an argument for such debates right?
 
If you try defending the Church in a formal debate on social issues with this type of thinking you would penalized on the first round. You do know you can’t use religion or quote the Bible as an argument for such debates right?
Huh? If I wanted to defend the Church in the current most effective apologetic way I’d be in the apologetics forum.

I’m talking about hell and my thoughts on it. Which is the topic of this thread.

I don’t evangelize with hellfire and brimstone, it is a reality that I myself have only recently begun to grasp. However, hell is not a topic to be dismissed just because it offends our modern sensibilities.
 
A healthy dose of rationality never killed anybody. I mean if you had kids, scaring them with hell may seem effective. When they grow up to become teenagers though, you really think that’s going to work better than explaining to them why premarital sex is bad?
I understand that there are other methods to reason with our children, but why is premarital sex bad ? It is forbidden by the Ten Commandments. Thus the mortal sin. What is the reward for mortal sin ? Hell. You can’t take Hell out of the equation.

I just am not convinced the preaching of Hell is a scare tactic. It’s a scary truth. Revealed so many times in Scripture, and we can even read the words Jesus spoke of it. One can’t believe in God and not fear offending Him. And what is our reward for offending Him beyond our allotted measure ?
 
However, hell is not a topic to be dismissed just because it offends our modern sensibilities.
I agree. Souls can and are won for Christ by the preaching of Hell. It’s not a pleasant topic, but Hell exists. When we worry about how the reality of Hell may trouble someone, we, by default, forfeit our concern for their souls imo.
 
My personal opinion is that article was not very good and had inaccuracies and had exaggerations in it (Jesus did speak about hell but he didn’t make it his main topic by any stretch of the imagination… and St Therese of Lisieux wasn’t preoccupied by hell - she stated she wasn’t fearful of going to Purgatory… I think she had a pretty good idea that she was going straight to Heaven).

That being said, I voted that I think about hell every day and that’s because I pray the Oratio Fatimae several times per day and always picture Jesus saving us from the fires of Hell.

When I pray the Act of Contrition I try to make it a perfect contrition and think more of how I have disappointed the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit rather than how painful it will be in Hell.

The nuns made sure us kids knew exactly how it would be in Hell btw.
 
Lost Wonderer,

Following your line of thinking, would it be more fruitful for the more “educated” (as in more intellectually focused) Catholics to read modern philosophy manuals, etc INSTEAD of books like Preparation for Death or The Imitation of Christ?
 
I understand that there are other methods to reason with our children, but why is premarital sex bad ? It is forbidden by the Ten Commandments. Thus the mortal sin. What is the reward for mortal sin ? Hell. You can’t take Hell out of the equation.
It’s that kind of thinking that cause teenagers to rebel and deny the existence of hell in the first place (followed by heaven, God, and eventually the good things religion does to the world). That’s how they take hell out of the equation. Better to give them another less supernatural reason than to add more burdens to yourself by trying to prove the existence of such things.
I just am not convinced the preaching of Hell is a scare tactic. It’s a scary truth. Revealed so many times in Scripture, and we can even read the words Jesus spoke of it. One can’t believe in God and not fear offending Him. And what is our reward for offending Him beyond our allotted measure ?
I don’t evangelize with hellfire and brimstone, it is a reality that I myself have only recently begun to grasp. However, hell is not a topic to be dismissed just because it offends our modern sensibilities.
Truth or not, using fear to convince people is a scare tactic. Furthermore, it’s a scare tactic with a veeeeeery limited target audience. For them to be convinced by such an argument, they have to be:

(a) Solid believers
(b) Willing to acknowledge the reality of the supernatural
(c) Only have severely limited time left to repent (And no, I don’t consider the 80+ years of the average human life span to be “severely” limited)
Lost Wonderer,

Following your line of thinking, would it be more fruitful for the more “educated” (as in more intellectually focused) Catholics to read modern philosophy manuals, etc INSTEAD of books like Preparation for Death or The Imitation of Christ?
Unless your wrinkly, old, and dying on a bed in a nursing home, I’d have to say yes.
Or are you trying to prove the anti-religious stereotype that people with a religion are uneducated and superstitious?
 
I disagree with you. I’m not old, wrinkly, and unfortunately, not on my death bed (I can only wish). I’m not uneducated, but I’m not super smart either. I think that you need to read Preparation for Death by Saint Alphonsus and The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis if you have not already. Those two books have helped me on my spiritual journey more than any modern philosopher (non-Catholic at that) ever will. Plus they are in Heaven, so I’m sure that their methods are tried and true!
 
It’s that kind of thinking that cause teenagers to rebel and deny the existence of hell in the first place (followed by heaven, God, and eventually the good things religion does to the world). That’s how they take hell out of the equation. Better to give them another less supernatural reason than to add more burdens to yourself by trying to prove the existence of such things.

Truth or not, using fear to convince people is a scare tactic. Furthermore, it’s a scare tactic with a veeeeeery limited target audience. For them to be convinced by such an argument, they have to be:

(a) Solid believers
(b) Willing to acknowledge the reality of the supernatural
(c) Only have severely limited time left to repent (And no, I don’t consider the 80+ years of the average human life span to be “severely” limited)
Well, if they don’t embrace a and b, then c might bite them on the rear before they get a chance to, and they will burn in Hell. Ignorance is one thing but rejecting the revealed truth after being exposed to it is a bad idea. Our children should know this.
 
I disagree with you. I’m not old, wrinkly, and unfortunately, not on my death bed (I can only wish). I’m not uneducated, but I’m not super smart either. I think that you need to read Preparation for Death by Saint Alphonsus and The Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis if you have not already. Those two books have helped me on my spiritual journey more than any modern philosopher (non-Catholic at that) ever will. Plus they are in Heaven, so I’m sure that their methods are tried and true!
You bet. The Ascetical Works of St Alphonsus will certainly build one’s faith. I have 5 volumes including PFD. I haven’t read Imitation of Christ yet, but intend to. Or need to 😉
 
No…I’d say it’s more in the nature of a warning.
Here’s the definition of “damn”
–verb (used with object)
1.
to declare (something) to be bad, unfit, invalid, or illegal.
2.
to condemn as a failure: to damn a play.
3.
to bring condemnation upon; ruin.
4.
to doom to eternal punishment or condemn to hell.

5.
to swear at or curse, using the word “damn”: Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!
The post in question condemns those who do not think about hell to eternal damnation. Again, how is that not damning?
So, to what good works is the thought of Hell a deterrent?
Not really a deterrent, just not a good argument to those who don’t believe. 😛
 
Well, if they don’t embrace a and b, then c might bite them on the rear before they get a chance to, and they will burn in Hell. Ignorance is one thing but rejecting the revealed truth after being exposed to it is a bad idea. Our children should know this.
Yet you can’t exactly do anything to convince them from dropping that truth without having a different debate entirely now can you?

As I said before, preaching about hell only works for people who believe in it. Anybody who has seen the hellfire and brimstone ramblings of YouTube street preachers can see just how (un)convincing it is. I mean for you to make such an approach effective, you’d have to show James Randi hell itself and prove he isn’t hallucinating followed by the likes of Penn and Teller.
 
I voted daily - and shame on anyone that votes “seldom” and considers themselves a devout Catholic. Anyone who thinks that they know better than the Saints and despise their recommendation to meditate DAILY on the miserable state of the Damned is a fool.

Please, if anyone is not making it a daily habit, even a habit that is repeated EVERY HOUR, to **meditate *seriously ***on the Last Four Things, then start doing it NOW.

I know that some people will say or think that what I have said is too old-fashioned, or to focused on God’s Justice and not His Love, but I will say this again - if you do not meditate on Hell, then you will go to Hell.
The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom! 😃 So many people have not even begun. 😦
You bet. The Ascetical Works of St Alphonsus will certainly build one’s faith. I have 5 volumes including PFD. I haven’t read Imitation of Christ yet, but intend to. Or need to
I have Preparation for Death as well, it’s one of my all time favorite books ever, I highly recommend it to everyone. 🙂 Tan has an abridged version, I think the one I have is unabridged, I got it when Our Lady of the Rosary Library was still selling them.

And he opened the bottomless pit: and the smoke of the pit arose, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke of the pit.

Apocalypse 9:2

And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: Some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it alwaysl

Daniel 12:2

A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains.

Deuteronomy 32:22

Their wine is the gall of dragons, and the venom of asps, which is incurable. Are not these things stored up with me, and sealed up in my treasures? Revenge is mine, and I will repay them in due time, that their foot may slide: the day of destruction is at hand, and the time makes haste to come.

Deuteronomy 32:33-35

Therefore I also will deal with them in my wrath: my eye shall not spare them, neither will I shew mercy: and when they shall cry to my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.

Ezechiel 8:18

And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.

Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.

John 8:23-24

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

And reducing the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly. And delivered just Lot, oppressed by the injustice and lewd conversation of the wicked. For in sight and hearing he was just: dwelling among them, who from day to day vexed the just soul with unjust works.

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented. And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government, audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming.

2 Peter 2:4-10

The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

Psalms 9:18

Thou shalt make them as an oven of fire, in the time of thy anger: the Lord shall trouble them in his wrath, and fire shall devour them.

Psalms 20:10

Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

‘In the second place, the sin of impurity produces obstinacy of the will. “Once fallen into the snare of the devil, one cannot so easily escape it,” says St. Jerome. And according to St. Thomas, there is no sin in which the devil takes so much delight as in impurity; because the flesh is strongly inclined to that vice, and he that falls into it can be rescued from it only with difficulty. Hence the vice of incontinence has been called by Clement of Alexandria “a malady without remedy;” and by Tertullian, “an incurable vice.” Hence St. Cyprian calls it the mother of impenitence. “It is impossible,” says Peter de Blois, for him that submits to the domination of the flesh to conquer carnal temptations." Father Biderman relates of a young man, who was in the habit of relapsing into this sin, that at the hour of death he confessed his sins with many tears and died, leaving strong grounds to hope for his salvation. But on the following day his confessor, while saying Mass, felt some one pulling the chasuble; turning round he saw a dark cloud, which sent forth scintillations of fire, and heard a voice saying that was the soul of the young man that had died; that though he had been absolved from his sins, he was again tempted, yielded to a bad thought, and was damned.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘The wicked bodies of the condemned shall simmer and blaze in those living fires.’

St. Cyprian
 
Not really a deterrent, just not a good argument to those who don’t believe. 😛
Apparently, no argument will ever be good enough for those who are determined to be obtuse – especially when they profess to be Catholics.
 
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